Alright I'll bite.[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]
traversc wrote...
You're a troll and quite possibly deeply and irreversibly sexist.
I won't deny it, my response was bordering on trolling now that I re-read it. However, I'm not a sexist. Not sure where you're getting that.
If you have no inclination to debate me, don't post dumb**** and argument-less rhetoric, like "LOL OMG WIKIPEDIA."
As
I said, a lthough you probably missed it in your crusade, I did not
intend to argue with you. What I wrote was merely an honest expression
of what I found hilarious:
a) How aggressively you argue
and you back yourself up with wikipedia (which, both you and I know is
basically some X, Y,Z's interpretation of an issue, and therefore not
100% reliable, right?)
Lots of "Research"
I'll get to this, but first:
(Don't
even try to pretend that the OP's Zevran isn't drawn in an effiminate
manner, considering how many comments were made in this thread about
the Zevran looking female, or about how "it's not gay if it's an elf.")
Okay, the picture was
fan art.
The fan being neither me, nor you, and the art being neither mine nor
yours. Therefore, it is silly to expect it to match whatever vision
you, I and Phyllis have in our heads of Zevran. I still think the piece
is artistically very good. It is effeminate as the artist intended it
to be. I did not claim otherwise; I don't know why you're expressing
all this (misdirected?) rage at me
when I never even commented on how the picture looked aside from it being a fabulous piece of art. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]
Furthermore, the viewpoint expressed above by you
and others is quite plainly sexist. It is not "harsh judgement" to
attribute effiminate behavoir with homosexuality. Quite the opposite,
in fact.
http://www.amazon.co...e/dp/0814746950
Err, what? I think you're confusing me with someone else.
What I had a problem with: Your claim that there was a "positive relation between homosexuality and effeminateness". I think this is a woeful statement to make and as such I think you are above making such ignorant remarks
You have research to back it up:
1) While that is admirable, you must realise these studies and this research - at the end of the day they are only case studies. (I'll be unkind enough to point out that there isn't even any actual analysis e can glean from these links)
Patterns and trends. In a perfect world, this would be irrefutable proof. However, the sciences of Psychology and Anthropology are unfortunately not like science in that there is no right and wrong. (You probably know all this, I'm stating it so we're on the same page)
Proof of X does not invalidate Y in Pyschology and Anthropology. Therefore the case of all gays being effeminate and all effeminates being gay isn't true. Which you seem to admit.
Thus I don't see how
there is a
positive relationship between effeminateness and homosexuality. (positive implying if the man is effeminate, he's gay. If you meant something else by it, that is a poor choice of words on your part).
2) Why any research on this matter is bogus:
a) Are you familiar with Mark twain? If you are, you'll see where I'm heading with this: He coined the expression,
"lies, damn lies and statistics". You probably have figured it out but just in case: Basically, you can pad anything with stats and make it seem legit. I went through the first couple of links there... the sample size was 16.
You've got to ask yourself: is this study even worth investigating? Sure it is weight for your debate with me right now, but come on. 16?
Then on the last article, 55. These numbers are really not reliable enough to provide any kind of evidence.
Look at the date: 1966. You do realise that until the 1970s, homosexuality was stated as a mental disorder by the DSM right? It even mentions on the page there that they classify it as "deviant behaviour". These sources are not reliable; their authors began with the contention in mind that effeminateness => homosexuality.
By their logic and to an extent, by yours (
positive relationship theory, I'm calling it
), all boys who were effeminate and straight were either lying or invalidated your whole argument. Thus it is not as black and white as you make it out to be. But it is not that way: Someone can be effeminate and straight or masculine and gay. (as you recognised.)
3. The biggest problem right now is: We don't know. A psychologist once said: If every gay person in the world turned purple, it would help because it would basically humanize them. That is, we'd probably know many more gays and be more sympathetic/understanding and eventually come to a point where it wouldn't make a difference. Furthermore, people you knew, held dear to you, people you never expected it from: if they turned purple, would you re evaluate your opinion about how effeminateness is tied to homosexuality? How similar it might be to one's innate heterosexuality?
Conclusion: Traversc, I hold no ill-will to you and I'm sorry if I came across that way; I just found your opinion to be erroneous and ultimately uneducated. Here's why:
i) We don't know how effeminateness is related to homosexuality. There are numerous cases of it being linked to it but we don't know for sure because:
*We don't know if homosexuality is genetic or environmental (strong evidence to genetic)
*Not sure HOW MUCH effeminate behaviour is influenced by environment and how much is instinctual
ii) Masculine boys making straight men and effeminate boys making homosexual men therefore proves nothing. If this were a science (as implied by your vehemence in your post:
Sorry, but there IS. There is a positive correlation between effiminacy and homosexuality. ) then the existence of one gay masculine being would invalidate your entire argument. Fortunately, it does not work that way, and we have come to recognise that both gay and straight dudes can be either masculine or effeminate.
iii) Your evidence was unreliable: It has only been ~35 years since homosexuality has been seen in a proper light and therefore nothing is certain (as I pointed out in point
). (If you are interested in the "experiments" of this time, look up John Money; some fascinating arguments on nature vs. nurture)
iv) [i]A better experiment would be to select a handful of boys and observe them for the next ~15 years. Handpicking effiminate boys is likely to skew results.
v) Avoid statistics when it comes to subjects like these and keep an open mind. These authors were most likely trying to pigeon-hole the boys into being homosexual deviants. Stats can be made up by anyone (Sample of 16 is legit!
) and can be made to colour anything. (See point [iii])
Of course, all this is moot anyway because who decides what is masculine and feminine? I can like dresses and have an unbridled love for cars and karate.
Edit: FML: Necro.
TO anyone reading this thread: I am generally not this verbose, I just had a lot of time on my hands (finals just got over!
)
Modifié par eucatastrophe, 30 avril 2010 - 09:09 .
Retour en haut
DICK" shirt? Then he doesn't "look" gay. He doesn't even look horny--just scared/vulnerable and not wearing much.
I went back and forth with it but the difficult angle of the face and all that owned me. As for the body, I've only recently started to try and work on more realistic style and my animu background is showing. I can only practise more 
I don't normally mush in public, so feel special!
