531 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Goose]

i don't see how shepard has "changed the variable" or made it so harvesting is suddenly an illegitamate option.

also, the catalyst seems to have always been capable of the end option, just never had the power source.

Catalyst tells to make choice. You make choice as he said. You're denying him, because he doesn't really want this choice. 
Catalyst tells to make choice. You refuse to make choice. You're agreeing with him.

Does not compute.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 27 juin 2012 - 09:11 .

[RiouHotaru]

Did anyone forget that the Reject Stargazer Epilogue states they completely avoided a war with the Reapers?

What it means is they knew ahead of time what to do and how to do it. I could even see it going like this:

New Race: Okay, plug the Crucible in here and...!
Catalyst: Oh, I'm awake and- wait, what is this doing here again?
New Race: We're here to end the cycle.
Catalyst: How did you guys get here so soon? How did you even find me?
New Race: Well, we found this record made by a woman named Liara T'soni about a person named Shepard and-
Catalyst: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF- OH GODDAMNIT!

[IanPolaris]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Did anyone forget that the Reject Stargazer Epilogue states they completely avoided a war with the Reapers?

What it means is they knew ahead of time what to do and how to do it. I could even see it going like this:

New Race: Okay, plug the Crucible in here and...!
Catalyst: Oh, I'm awake and- wait, what is this doing here again?
New Race: We're here to end the cycle.
Catalyst: How did you guys get here so soon? How did you even find me?
New Race: Well, we found this record made by a woman named Liara T'soni about a person named Shepard and-
Catalyst: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF- OH GODDAMNIT!

Yes but according to Bioware they did it by Using the Catalyst (and essentially throwing away their freedom).  NOT COOL.  Hard to take it as anything other than a big FU from Bioware.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Fireblader70 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fireblader70 wrote...

I like that I have the choice to reject everything the Catalyst says, because we will go down fighting as free men and women, staying true to those principles. And then, because of those efforts, the next cycle has a chance of stopping the Reapers before they cause any serious damage.

That's how I see it, and I'm sticking to it.

Bioware has said otherwise though which only reinforces the notion that it was in fact meant to be an FU (or to be more accurate two highly placed Bioware employees associated with Mass Effect have said otherwise in their official roles).

-Polaris

I'm pretty sure they said the next cycle used the Crucible, yes?

Yes which means that what Shepard did was completely pointless.   Not cool.

-Polaris

[RiouHotaru]

So? They still avoided a conflict. And the losses incurred by picking one of the three choices for people that weren't currently in the middle of a war with the Reapers would be significantly less.

If the issue is that they used the Catalyst at all? Well then that's just your problem. Also, it's not throwing away freedom to pick one of his options.

[Rip504]

D24O wrote...

What if they pick destroy? Without a peaceful Synthetic race being killed? Is it wrong? I do not think so.

Depending on certain playthroughs, the Geth may already be dead. How is destroying the Reapers not worth a single AI? How is it not worth sacrifice or doesn't make sense? Destroying the Geth is not Shepard's choice. It is not the Catalyst's choice. It is the natrual function of the Crucuble,to kill synthetics. As far as we know,the Geth may be one of the, if not the only peaceful synthetic race ever. It may be nothing more then an unfortunate turn of events. But how is the Death of the Geth to destroy the Reapers,whom have killed multiple civilizations,not worth it? Or doesn't make sense?

Genocide Genocide Genocide,yep to not only save all life now,but preserve our future and the future of all civilized life. Even a potential new AI race. Without it we die,and our future dies. Then future races we have yet to meet,now have to deal with our problem. Potentially losing Millions or Billions in the name of a DEAD Geth race. LoL what's worse? Sacrificing all life in name of preserving the Geth for a few days does not make sense to me.

"So be It" Muah HaHa.

Edit: "We know the red light is their weakness" No you assume it is. The Reapers we destroyed had already taken a pounding. How many did that single Reaper kill before we killed it? Billions of lives are lost withing the initial strike. We killed none of them. So for every few Billion people dead we have a Reaper under our belt,but you feel conventional victory is possible? Does it make sense?

Conventional Victory has never been an option in the ME series.

Modifié par Rip504, 27 juin 2012 - 09:34 .

[Fireblader70]

IanPolaris wrote...

Fireblader70 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Fireblader70 wrote...

I like that I have the choice to reject everything the Catalyst says, because we will go down fighting as free men and women, staying true to those principles. And then, because of those efforts, the next cycle has a chance of stopping the Reapers before they cause any serious damage.

That's how I see it, and I'm sticking to it.

Bioware has said otherwise though which only reinforces the notion that it was in fact meant to be an FU (or to be more accurate two highly placed Bioware employees associated with Mass Effect have said otherwise in their official roles).

-Polaris

I'm pretty sure they said the next cycle used the Crucible, yes?

Yes which means that what Shepard did was completely pointless.   Not cool.

-Polaris

Well, you could look at it that way, or you could look at it from the perspective that they defeated the Reapers without having to fight a war, thanks to the advance warning and knowledge from our efforts. I mean, the new Stargazer praises Shepard's cycle as being the one that gave them the chance to defeat the Reapers for good. They might have had to deal with the Catalyst, but we stood for what we believed in and gave them the chance to kick the Reapers into oblivion before any tragedies occured, unlike other cycles.

There is no definitive answer. All of these endings are debatable, and that is done on purpose to get us talking about the game more. So your opinion is perfectly valid, and I definitely see where you are coming from, but mine is also valid and I like to see this from a more positive point of view

[IanPolaris]

RiouHotaru wrote...

So? They still avoided a conflict. And the losses incurred by picking one of the three choices for people that weren't currently in the middle of a war with the Reapers would be significantly less.

If the issue is that they used the Catalyst at all? Well then that's just your problem. Also, it's not throwing away freedom to pick one of his options.

It means that Bioware is telling us, "If you don't use our magic box you lose"

How is that anything other than "FU Fans"?  Not seeing it any other way (nor are a lot of other people).

Personally I choose to believe (because the Bioware response has been non-canonical and through unofficial channels) that the next cycle had the warning and technology to curbstomp the reapers thanks to Liara's warning.  That is not unreasonable given what we know.  That makes refusal a nice "bittersweet" ending...a phyrric victory as it were.

Here's another clue the Refusal End was an "FU" to the fans:

If you play the entire game on Insanity and pick any of the other three endings, you will get the requisit Achievement.  You do NOT if you pick Refusal.  That's a clear and unmistatable message (middle finger) from Bioware IMHO.

-Polaris

[AttaBoyTroy]

People wanted the option to refuse the choices presented, even if it meant the possibility of losing, and that's exactly what they got. You've been told over and over and over that you cannot beat the Reapers without the crucible (and don't get into whether or not it's possible here, there are plenty of threads about this), so this is the information you're working with when you make that choice, and it's the info your character has when they make that choice. It's great that you wanted to stand behind your priciples, admirable even, but it's also suicidal. I don't see how anyone could see this ending as an insult unless they were trying to be unreasonable.

You wanted the opportunity to stick to your guns and say no - even though in the universe as it stands, that's pretty much a guaranteed loss - and you got it. They could have not stuck it in at all, and said "screw you guys, make the choices we gave you" but they added another option. I'm honestly a little in awe, and I think Bioware had a no-win here. They don't add this scene, it's "Bioware doesn't listen and forced us into the same choices", they do add it and they get "it's just a big FU from Bioware despite being exactly what we've been told would happen for 3 games now if we tried to go straight up with the Reapers." All it is is being mad that things didn't go exactly your way.

[SirCrimz]

Not going to even lie, it was the first ending I got when I went through the EC. I shot at the kid just for the hell of it and got the refusal ending then proceeded to laugh my ass off that it was actually an option.

[AttaBoyTroy]

IanPolaris wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

So? They still avoided a conflict. And the losses incurred by picking one of the three choices for people that weren't currently in the middle of a war with the Reapers would be significantly less.

If the issue is that they used the Catalyst at all? Well then that's just your problem. Also, it's not throwing away freedom to pick one of his options.

It means that Bioware is telling us, "If you don't use our magic box you lose"

How is that anything other than "FU Fans"?  Not seeing it any other way (nor are a lot of other people).

Personally I choose to believe (because the Bioware response has been non-canonical and through unofficial channels) that the next cycle had the warning and technology to curbstomp the reapers thanks to Liara's warning.  That is not unreasonable given what we know.  That makes refusal a nice "bittersweet" ending...a phyrric victory as it were.

Here's another clue the Refusal End was an "FU" to the fans:

If you play the entire game on Insanity and pick any of the other three endings, you will get the requisit Achievement.  You do NOT if you pick Refusal.  That's a clear and unmistatable message (middle finger) from Bioware IMHO.

-Polaris

They told you the entire game you had to use it or you'd lose. The fact you refused to believe it doesn't make it less true in the universe. The Achievement thing could be as simple as an oversight since that ending WASN'T IN THE ORIGINAL ENDING, it could also be that they couldn't add the achievement for whatever reason to that ending. It's easy to jump to conclusions when you don't know isn't it? All I get from this is that you want to feel insulted, and that's cool, but I highly doubt that was the intention of this ending.

[D24O]

AttaBoyTroy wrote...

People wanted the option to refuse the choices presented, even if it meant the possibility of losing, and that's exactly what they got. You've been told over and over and over that you cannot beat the Reapers without the crucible (and don't get into whether or not it's possible here, there are plenty of threads about this), so this is the information you're working with when you make that choice, and it's the info your character has when they make that choice. It's great that you wanted to stand behind your priciples, admirable even, but it's also suicidal. I don't see how anyone could see this ending as an insult unless they were trying to be unreasonable.

You wanted the opportunity to stick to your guns and say no - even though in the universe as it stands, that's pretty much a guaranteed loss - and you got it. They could have not stuck it in at all, and said "screw you guys, make the choices we gave you" but they added another option. I'm honestly a little in awe, and I think Bioware had a no-win here. They don't add this scene, it's "Bioware doesn't listen and forced us into the same choices", they do add it and they get "it's just a big FU from Bioware despite being exactly what we've been told would happen for 3 games now if we tried to go straight up with the Reapers." All it is is being mad that things didn't go exactly your way.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, if the next cycle had won on their own therms, by their own merits, because our warning saved them. But apparently they don't. They find the Crucible, just left there, that we were too stupid to use, and they go and use THAT to win. Instead of making it similar to the brave sacrafice of the Prothean reasearchers on Ilos, it just makes our sacrafice pointless.

[IanPolaris]

AttaBoyTroy wrote...

They told you the entire game you had to use it or you'd lose. The fact you refused to believe it doesn't make it less true in the universe. The Achievement thing could be as simple as an oversight since that ending WASN'T IN THE ORIGINAL ENDING, it could also be that they couldn't add the achievement for whatever reason to that ending. It's easy to jump to conclusions when you don't know isn't it? All I get from this is that you want to feel insulted, and that's cool, but I highly doubt that was the intention of this ending.

You were also told the MU relay was lost.  You were told that getting to Illos was impossible.  You were told that surviving the Omega-4 relay (let alone destroying the collectors) was impossible.  Get my drift?

A major theme in Mass Effect has always been about doing the impossible.  This should have been no different.  Even if it was, the way it was done was petty at best.  Even if THIS cycle was doomed to fail without kowtowing to starbrat's game of "choose your warcrime" doesn't mean that the next cycle should have been.  THAT should have been determined by how badly you bleed the Reapers before you lost (ie your EMS).

The fact it didn't and the next cycle just uses the crucible anyway is the final insult.

-Polaris

[DrowNoble]

Anuvis13 wrote...

You know what was requested by fans even more than Reject or in conjunction with it? A happy ending. Most, myself included, would pay for it. We still didn't get it. And look at what BW gives you if you choose to reject their "artistic vision". It's a glorified Game Over screen. It's a clear FU but you know what? It's still better than their ending.

Yes, but remember when Bioware said we'd get 16 different endings?  Well I want the #1 ending to be the Happy Ending.  Shep lives, maybe retires and rides off into the sunset with his (or her) love arm in arm.  Shouldn't be easy to get (high assets majority of game complete, etc) but it SHOULD be there.

On the other end, YES there should be a worst case ending.  Reapers win or we win but at a very high cost (Earth uninhabitable).  

A series based on our choices and the consequences of said choices is what made ME great as a whole.  Then, simply put, stubborn arrogance on Bioware's part they took that all away and said "we're killing off Shep and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it".  Another poster in another thread said it best, the EC is Bioware giving us the finger.

Well Bioware can have their artistic integrity and stick it in a tender place.  There are a lot of other gaming companies out there who will, from now on, be getting my money.  Oh and Btw, EA refunded the $60 for my PC version of ME3.  Guess EA isn't 100% behind Bioware's arrogance .. *cough*... 'cuse me I mean "artistic integrity" either.

[oldag07]

I am a teacher, and some of you sound like my kids. You were absent for half the year, you refused to do your homework or any make up work, and somehow it is my fault that you failed.

It was made clear in the game that the crucible was the only way the galaxy was going to defeat the reapers. Why then would rejection of the catalyst have any solution then defeat?

Modifié par oldag07, 27 juin 2012 - 09:53 .

[LivingHitokiri]

Rip504 wrote...

LivingHitokiri wrote...

Lol, so lets begin with this.
First we get Shepard talk about ideals, freedom and everything , everything sounds exactly like what a hero would say while preparing for a battle, then we get the main villain saying " so be it" and magically we see our Hero stand and accept defeat and the rest of our galactic armada loosing by default.
Wait WHAT ?
So we play all these 3 games, going against the odds, we literally show a middle finger to the star child's ideology and his reasoning's by proving him wrong and magically we loose?
How in the bloody hellish apple that happens ?
We already proved that reapers can be defeated, since we beat Sovereign in ME 1 without any prior knowledge with a small fleet in Citadel. Then we solo a reaper in Ranoch and another 2 in Earth with our petty weapons ( thanix and Chain ), so how exactly it is not possible to beat the reapers when a SINGLE man already did it ?
When i was checking the war room with my EMS it was saying that our Forces are steadily WINNING against the reapers forces, not getting decimated or facerolled.
Since when reapers became immortal perfect beings, they are controlled by an imperfect retarded AI for god's sake.

This ending was more a mockery for fans that where asking a new ending, they gave us the ending but they on purpose didn't let to get what we wanted.
" See, we listen to your complains and give you this, too bad its still not what you want eh ?"

It is mockery since Shepard after his mighty talk just its there and dies... simply lol
We got the whole galactic fleet with us, we know how to beat reapers, we already did so but now magically get destroyed because plot doesn't allow it, yeah , bull****.

Lmao,Conventional victory is not a possibility,"Just cause". A few Reapers is not the entire Reaper force. A force that is taking worlds etc during our conventional ME3 playthrough!
 Winning? We have lost multiple WORLDS including Earth. It takes the brute of our Allied forces just to board the Citadel, But yet somehow we can beat the Reapers conventionally w/o worries. That is the joke IMO.

I love the idea that conventional victory is now just a bad joke. Morale can pull us through. Apparently not.

Rip504 wrote...

HaHa. Reaper Win,Conventional loss. I love "it" haha.

I am not talking about a victory without casualties or a flawless one im talking basing on what the writter gave us.
Yes, it is fact that according to ME 3 if you got enough EMS your galactic forces are WINNING over the reapers at the key points, get high ems and check it yourself.
We know that reapers fought and took over the previous cycles but we know that they never came across something like this, Javik says that at first and god child confirms it. It is remotelly retarded how the Refusal ending shows that we get decimated by repaers, it is wrong accoridng to ME   and all the 3 games we play.
We can beat reapers thats a fact, like ive explained about sovereign class reapers which are the strongest ones.
I can accept a defeat after the whole galaxy hardly fought but reapers also had HEAVY casualities ( otherwise it is impossible to explain how shepard soloed 3 of them if they are so godlike) .
i refuse to believe that ina story where we beat all the impossible odds suddenly fall of because its just must happen, it is bull****.
We have lost battles on Thessia and tohers but we won one slike Ranoch and Tutsanka, since we where gathering forces to fight a common enemy, as soon we did that we where united and started to draw them back, it was obvious as hell since reapers used earth as shield and moved citadel there in order to stop us and protect it, WHY, why the so mighty reapers  hide like little kitties behind earth if they are so sure about their win.
I will tell you why, BECAUSE they are NOT, god child knows it and reapers know it, since they never EVER came across such thing, it went all against their logic and possibllities, God child never expected an organic to reach him yet they did.

Again, there is no need to try to analyze a shi t and trying to make it look better, no matter how much suggar you add to it or change its color the fatc remains that it is still a shi t.

[RejectedRose]

reject ending ?

that was a joke...

[JPR1964]

Definitively a FU by the poor realisation of the reject ending...

And I don't even want to start with the plothole and weirdness...

JPR out!

[IanPolaris]

oldag07 wrote...

I am a teacher, and some of you sound like my kids. You were absent for half the year, you refused to do your homework or any make up work, and somehow it is my fault that you failed.

It was made clear in the game that the crucible was the only way the galaxy was going to defeat the reapers. Why then would rejection of the catalyst have any solution then defeat?

Victory at what cost though?  Shepard is being asked to trust an entity that he knows is his enemy and thus has no reason to trust.  He is asked to either commit genocide, become an immortal galactic dictator/God Emperor and thus trampling on the right of self-determination of everyone (even the Paragon Control ending is very creepy and disturbing), or somehow merge all synethetic and organic life and somehow hope utopia will somehow happen....all AGAINST and CONTRARY to the wishes of both said organic and synethetic life.

Refusing to take that option should be an option.  Maybe you lose.  Maybe you don't, but you don't trust a clearly demented AI.

That should have been a VALID option (and it's not...the fact you can't get end game rewards for refusal tells us it's not considered a valid option by the writers) with it's own EMS Dependant Epilog.  How well we "lost" would determine how well the next cycle fares.

Sure, in a very low EMS, we get curbstomped and the cycle either continues indefinately or they are forced to use the crucible.  But a very high EMS should be different and should allow for at least the shred of hope (which seems to be a four letter word at Bioware these days) that the Reapers really can be beaton on our OWN terms.  It's not like the idea is intrinsically impossible even though it might not be possible in this cycle.

By saying regardless of EMS, and the language, fade to black, etc that "Nope, the next cycle used the Crucible you silly boy" is in fact as far as I can call a big "FU" to the fans.

-Polaris

[LivingHitokiri]

Rip504 wrote...

D24O wrote...

What if they pick destroy? Without a peaceful Synthetic race being killed? Is it wrong? I do not think so.

Depending on certain playthroughs, the Geth may already be dead. How is destroying the Reapers not worth a single AI? How is it not worth sacrifice or doesn't make sense? Destroying the Geth is not Shepard's choice. It is not the Catalyst's choice. It is the natrual function of the Crucuble,to kill synthetics. As far as we know,the Geth may be one of the, if not the only peaceful synthetic race ever. It may be nothing more then an unfortunate turn of events. But how is the Death of the Geth to destroy the Reapers,whom have killed multiple civilizations,not worth it? Or doesn't make sense?

Genocide Genocide Genocide,yep to not only save all life now,but preserve our future and the future of all civilized life. Even a potential new AI race. Without it we die,and our future dies. Then future races we have yet to meet,now have to deal with our problem. Potentially losing Millions or Billions in the name of a DEAD Geth race. LoL what's worse? Sacrificing all life in name of preserving the Geth for a few days does not make sense to me.

"So be It" Muah HaHa.

Edit: "We know the red light is their weakness" No you assume it is. The Reapers we destroyed had already taken a pounding. How many did that single Reaper kill before we killed it? Billions of lives are lost withing the initial strike. We killed none of them. So for every few Billion people dead we have a Reaper under our belt,but you feel conventional victory is possible? Does it make sense?

Conventional Victory has never been an option in the ME series.

Im pretty sure durring cinematics where the galactic fleet attacks the reapers at Earth PLENTY of them to sya at least are destroyed with couple of shots.
So how exactly you came to conclusion that they do not die or didnt die ?
Where exactly you came to conclusion that 1 reapper takes billiosn to kill since  1 man killed 3 of them  ?

[Isaidlunch]

The Reject ending is exactly how I wanted it to be. Well done Bioware.

[GreyLycanTrope]

I'll be honest Reject is my favorite option, that doesn't necessarily make it good. People said "We'd like an option to Reject the Catalyst's logic even if it meant defeat" to show how much we didn't like the options presented and would have liked to stop the Reapers on our own terms. This doesn't mean we had to do it through conventional means. We could have just altered Destroy slightly with a high enough EMS. Or used paragon or renegade scores to convince him to back the hell down. Conventional warfare isn't the only way to reject the Catalyst's solutions.

[oldag07]

IanPolaris wrote...

oldag07 wrote...

I am a teacher, and some of you sound like my kids. You were absent for half the year, you refused to do your homework or any make up work, and somehow it is my fault that you failed.

It was made clear in the game that the crucible was the only way the galaxy was going to defeat the reapers. Why then would rejection of the catalyst have any solution then defeat?

Victory at what cost though?  Shepard is being asked to trust an entity that he knows is his enemy and thus has no reason to trust.  He is asked to either commit genocide, become an immortal galactic dictator/God Emperor and thus trampling on the right of self-determination of everyone (even the Paragon Control ending is very creepy and disturbing), or somehow merge all synethetic and organic life and somehow hope utopia will somehow happen....all AGAINST and CONTRARY to the wishes of both said organic and synethetic life.

Refusing to take that option should be an option.  Maybe you lose.  Maybe you don't, but you don't trust a clearly demented AI.

 

The allies "trusted" Stalin. The turians "trusted" the Krogan.  Sometimes you don't have a choice.

IanPolaris wrote... 
That should have been a VALID option (and it's not...the fact you can't get end game rewards for refusal tells us it's not considered a valid option by the writers) with it's own EMS Dependant Epilog.  How well we "lost" would determine how well the next cycle fares.

Sure, in a very low EMS, we get curbstomped and the cycle either continues indefinately or they are forced to use the crucible.  But a very high EMS should be different and should allow for at least the shred of hope (which seems to be a four letter word at Bioware these days) that the Reapers really can be beaton on our OWN terms.  It's not like the idea is intrinsically impossible even though it might not be possible in this cycle.

By saying regardless of EMS, and the language, fade to black, etc that "Nope, the next cycle used the Crucible you silly boy" is in fact as far as I can call a big "FU" to the fans.

-Polaris

How many civilizations lost to the Reapers?  If the protheans couldn't do it, the galaxy as portrayed wouldn't have either.

Modifié par oldag07, 27 juin 2012 - 10:13 .

[RiouHotaru]

IanPolaris wrote...

By saying regardless of EMS, and the language, fade to black, etc that "Nope, the next cycle used the Crucible you silly boy" is in fact as far as I can call a big "FU" to the fans.

-Polaris

The "silly boy" part is your own bias sneaking in, Ian.  It's  been made obvious it wasn't intended as a jab at players.  That you choose to interpret it as such is your own decision of course, just as long as you realize that's your bias.

[LivingHitokiri]

oldag07 wrote...

I am a teacher, and some of you sound like my kids. You were absent for half the year, you refused to do your homework or any make up work, and somehow it is my fault that you failed.

It was made clear in the game that the crucible was the only way the galaxy was going to defeat the reapers. Why then would rejection of the catalyst have any solution then defeat?

Ok teacher, explain me this, how exactly we killed Sovereign without Catalyst if Catalyst is the only way to kill them, how we killed the other reapers, how the bloody hell we ****ed up all reapers plans durring all 3 games, which made even the god child to QUESTIOn his own logic and reason.