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"Reject" was a fan request, it's not meant as a FU


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#301
Rip504

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LivingHitokiri wrote...

When your travel to Earth to retake it,how many systems are NOT controlled by the Reapers? Tell me about winning some more please. So yes maybe some small areas (MP) are having some succes,but not winning. When you are extracted on wave 11,are all of the enemies dead? Or are you running for your life?

I do not see these so called victories. Imagine No Mp...

Billions dead compared to how many dead Reapers? Nothing seems to change,so why would the rate of death change? Because you say conventional victory is possible?

#302
IanPolaris

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RiouHotaru wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

By saying regardless of EMS, and the language, fade to black, etc that "Nope, the next cycle used the Crucible you silly boy" is in fact as far as I can call a big "FU" to the fans.

-Polaris


The "silly boy" part is your own bias sneaking in, Ian.  It's  been made obvious it wasn't intended as a jab at players.  That you choose to interpret it as such is your own decision of course, just as long as you realize that's your bias.


It's been made obvious how exactly?  I don't see it that way and neither to a lot of other people if this thread and others are any indication.

1.  The Reject ending is far and away the shortest least developed of all the endings (a simple fact) in spite of the fact its actually introducing new material (and thus ought to be the longest and most developed for that reason alone).

2.  It doesn't check our EMS or give us any closure unlike ALL other endings.

3.  The Starbrat actually loses his temper unlike ALL other endings.

4.  The game doesn't consider this a completed game for achievements unlike ALL OTHER ENDINGs.

5.  Finally we are told that "oh the crucible was used anyway" in spite of what we are shown in the game completely negating Shepard's moral stance (the ONLY ending where he or she really acts like Shepard).

This isn't an FU to the fans how exactly?

-Polaris

#303
AtreiyaN7

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savionen wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Wow, really? Now they're insulted by having the option to say no? I do believe that I saw a fair number of people requesting a shot at rejecting all the choices. If you want to take that road, then honestly, you should have expected the universe to burn. We're not even as advanced as the Protheans, and they couldn't win a victory through conventional warfare. It's not an "FU" just because you people who believe that is was an insult had completely unrealistic expectations that you could somehow pull off a miraculous victory. I mean, excuse me, but Admiral Hackett flat-out says that we can't win conventionally. No matter how many shiny war assets you have, it's not happening. So revel in your freedom of choice to throw away our future! You got what you wanted, a chance to defy the Catalyst.


I find it funny that your signature basically says to draw your own conclusions but hey, Hackett's word is the word of god on the subject of fighting the Reapers, even though everyone said defeating Sovereign and the Collectors was impossible too.


I love how my quote is constantly misinterpreted by, oh, everyone. hitchcock was joking about television audiences lacking the imagination to draw their own conclusions when presented with an abrupt ending that does not, in fact, lay out every detail.

That's very different from having Hackett flat-out state in no uncertain terms that we will lose a conventional warfare. Now, if people can maybe go watch Alfred hitchcock Presents on Netflix or wherever it's floating around now (it was on Hulu for a while) and actually get to the episode where my quote comes from, you can all stop misinterpreting it. *rolleyes*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 27 juin 2012 - 10:21 .


#304
AlexMBrennan

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Fair enough, OP... on the other hand, another popular request had been for real choice, not just 3 palette swapped explosions. I believe that we even sent them cupcakes. What we get, is one new, actually different options - "SO BE IT. Rocks fall, everyone dies".

I concede that it might not have been intended as a FU to fans - but you'll have to agree that Bioware should have been a little bit more mindful of how people might interpret their work...

5. Finally we are told that "oh the crucible was used anyway" in spite of what we are shown in the game completely negating Shepard's moral stance (the ONLY ending where he or she really acts like Shepard).

We are not told this. All we see is that Liara's time capsule is found, and that the Reapers are defeated as a result. For all you know, Liara made a time capsule that could actually be understood (the protheans seemed to rely on everyone using their brand of space magic beacon telepathy), allowing whoever found it to start work in time to work out how to use the damn thing to take out the Reapers without needing Godchild's assistance

Modifié par AlexMBrennan, 27 juin 2012 - 10:27 .


#305
Taboo

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Watch out, Michael Haneke might over take hitchcock in the speculation department.

But then again, you missed the point of that being central to hitchcock's ouerve. But that's okay.

#306
IanPolaris

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oldag07 wrote...


The allies "trusted" Stalin. The turians "trusted" the Krogan.  Sometimes you don't have a choice.


False.  You always have a choice.  In fact Churchill did NOT want to trust the Soviets and wanted to backstab them (by invading Easter Europe via Greece).  Turians didn't trust the Krogan either (Garrus makes that plain).  In fact you use them.

How many civilizations lost to the Reapers?  If the protheans couldn't do it, the galaxy as portrayed wouldn't have either.


Wrong.  The Protheans had no warning whatsoever, and didn't have the Mass Relay network.  Just by the lack of C3I alone, the Protheans had lost before the war even began...and that's in addition to the fact (confirmed by Javick) that the Protheans had a very rigidly (and Imperialistic) culture that couldn't adapt.

This cycle already did far more damage to the Reapers than the Prothean cycle ever did.  All through ME1 and 2, we get hints that yes, the Reapers are beatable.

-Polaris

#307
Grimwick

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Oh of course, because my request for a reject ending involved the galaxy being wiped out!

/sarcasm off

#308
v TricKy v

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Well lets face it. The refuse option would be a lot better if the next cycle DIDNT use the crucible. You are refusing because you dont want to a solution made by your enemy. But if it gets stated that the next cycle used the crucible your sacrifice and everything you fought for was for nothing because you could have done the same. THAT is the reason people are seeing this as an insult. If the next ones won through a suprise attack in dark space because of our warrnings or something similar, I bet there would be way less complains about it.
I still find the option acceptable and the Speech from Shepard is definitely the best in the game, but it could have been much more and Im not even asking about that Shepard defeats reapers conventionally.

#309
Yakko77

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I might be convinced Reject Ending wasn't an F U if shooting the Catalyst didn't trigger it.

The dialogue options given to Shep were great. You get to challenge the flawed logic of the Star Brat and in going through with it, you and everyone else gets killed. Maybe if there were an option for the Destroy "Good" ending to feature Shepard actually coming out of the rubble like in ME1 I would've been thrilled but as it is... I think it was spitefully included as a slap to those who didn't accept the "artistic integrity" argument.

#310
Lord Goose

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Maybe shooting him is just easter egg.

#311
Teneroth

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In my first (and only) full play through of ME3 when I first met the starbrat I was confused. I had done my best to avoid all spoilers and wanted to like the ending. I managed to unlock all three endings but I didn't find the starbrat remotely trustworthy.

For one, I had never seen this character before, except in my dreams that seemed to be telling me that humanity would burn. So what lead up there was to this character clearly painted it as a villain.

For two, it says that the citadel is its home and part of it, now I learned in the first game that the citadel is a reaper construct. Which caused me to draw the conclusion that this glowing kid was an agent for the reapers, just like TIM was moments earlier, the collectors were in the previous game, and Saren was in the first game. To reinforce this it gave me certain options and told me they were the only way to survive. Well, Saren said that joining the reapers was the only way to survive, I talked him out of that and got him to shoot himself. Harbinger, through the collectors, told me that resistance would only draw things out and I couldn't stop him. Proved him wrong by killing his baby human reaper thing. Finally TIM was convinced that controlling the reapers was the only way to move forward, well, I talked him out of that as well and shot him.

So here is this antagonist, servant/master/bell-boy of the reapers telling me the only way is to pick one of the choices he provided. Well, I wasn't given a choice to argue with him, so I shot him. This did nothing. So I shot the energy beam thingy, which did nothing. After shooting everything I could think of I eventually triggered the destroy ending, somehow, which was not what I wanted to do.

Now the EC comes along, I play through my same save to the starbrat and argue with it, tell it that it is wrong, and I refuse to pick genocide, dictatorship or forced change. Sticking with my morals has always work in the past, so why shouldn't it here?

So 'conventional war' has been said to be impossible, I've done the impossible before. From destroying a collector base to blowing up a mass relay. And besides, in the previous cycles the reapers always disabled the relay network so they could take the galaxy on piece meal, hell wasn't that the point of the entire first game? Maybe it was because there weren't as many as they wanted us to believe, in the codex it says that they only build, on average, a single capitol ship per cycle, since an entire race is required to be turned into slurry and pumped into a new reaper. By this point I've personally destroyed one capitol ship and a handful of the destroyers. Hell, in the battle scenes it shows reaper caps dropping left and right. Sure it takes some fire to bring them down, but there can't be THAT many. Maybe a few hundred?

The husks don't pose much of a threat, cannibals and Marauders match up to a single one of our troops at best. There are a lot more destroyers then reaper caps, but they are less dangerous and a small fleet can take them down without that much difficulty. So I figured Hackette could find a way or something.

So I told the star brat where he could shove is 'choices' and got a great few lines of Shepard being Shepard. Never give in, stick to your guns, for without them you are no better then the reapers or what this kid claims to be. And then boop, cut to 50k years later and Liara talking about how the crucible didn't work and how we all died....

Oh, and the next cycle used the crucible and are now NOT reaper food...

Really? This is what I get for sticking to my guns? A half assed ending and then being all but told that if I had done as the star brat wanted everyone I loved (Tali!) would still be around?

To use the teacher analogy mentioned earlier, this is NOT refusing to do homework and asking why I failed. This is doing all the homework, and being rewarded for it, then doing the final only to find out that I was supposed to answer the final INCORRECTLY and choose the wrong answers in order to pass, so now I fail.

#312
D24O

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v TricKy v wrote...

Well lets face it. The refuse option would be a lot better if the next cycle DIDNT use the crucible.

That's the crux of it for me. Knowing that we die for no good reason other than we were too stupid to take the benevolent solutions offered by the Catalyst is a borderline FU. I want to believe that they didn't mean it as an insult, and that they didn't think any cycle could win conventionally or anythgin, but that detail really dampings that particular choice for me.

#313
zyntifox

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Well i for one am glad to have gotten a ending my paragon Shepard would not be morally repulsed by. I haven't been playing two Mass effect games prior to this one advocating freedom and unity to throw that out of the window in the last minutes of the third game.

#314
LivingHitokiri

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Rip504 wrote...

LivingHitokiri wrote...

When your travel to Earth to retake it,how many systems are NOT controlled by the Reapers? Tell me about winning some more please. So yes maybe some small areas (MP) are having some succes,but not winning. When you are extracted on wave 11,are all of the enemies dead? Or are you running for your life?

I do not see these so called victories. Imagine No Mp...

Billions dead compared to how many dead Reapers? Nothing seems to change,so why would the rate of death change? Because you say conventional victory is possible?

Because simply so far we never fought together and our forces where scattered.
Battle on earth was the first united galactic fight against reapers and as far i could see we where doing fine holding them up, like ive said, reapers where forced to use EARTH as shield in order to stop us.

The winning i was reffering was from was from the war room which you can visist, even if low MP score you still can achieve  it if you got enough EMS.
We know that thusands of reapers came in our glaxy we know that turians untill last fight where still holding against them in palaven. We won Ranoch agaisnt them also we freed Tutsanka. I have no clue why bioware in the game show that reapers occupied the whole  galaxy,since when even i go and use my scan wave i dont see reapers chasing me anymore, there is no sign of them in anywhere else besides earth and few other planets.Reapers where all focusing their forces at citadel and earth right after they learned the plans from illusive man about Catalyst. Catalyst was their weakness and they all went to protect it.

And again, this game we proved for dozen of times how we go against impossible odds and still manage to make it, how we prove  god child wrong even if what he thought was absolute, it was impossible to unite the galaxy yet we did, yes impossible... NOT.
I dont see how exactly beating reapers even with major casualties sound ridiculous or absolutetly not possible just because bioware wants it.
Hence i call it **** ending and bad writting, blame them for providing us clear evidence that support exactly  what im saying through 3 games

Modifié par LivingHitokiri, 27 juin 2012 - 10:52 .


#315
Yakko77

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Grimwick wrote...

Oh of course, because my request for a reject ending involved the galaxy being wiped out!

/sarcasm off


I missed that memo too.

It's amazing but BW managed to channel greatness in the dialogue options to the Catalyst at first as they did great in the previous games and most of ME3 and then at the very end.... facedesk pounding failure of epic proportions. 

Maybe that's their "artistic integrity" because they're turning game end failure into an art form.  :devil:

#316
AtreiyaN7

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Taboo-XX wrote...

Watch out, Michael Haneke might over take hitchcock in the speculation department.

But then again, you missed the point of that being central to hitchcock's ouerve. But that's okay.


Having watched his films and being a fan, why yes, I'm familiar with Hitch's OUEVRE and his humor. Notorious, North by Northwest, Suspicion, Rebecca, Vertigo...I've even watched just about everything he ever filmed, including his early version of The Lodger.

The fact remains that it was a quote from a very specific episode with a very specific intent as a closing vignette. Furthermore, it still has exactly nothing to do with a concrete fact as stated by Hackett and people making ridiculous claims that we should be able to win when that was never even a remotely realistic possibility. While I would encourage people using their imaginations to fill in details and work things out themselves in ambiguous situations instead of being the equivalent of mental couch potatoes, that hardly applies to this particular situation.

#317
Cant Planet

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Absolutely agreeing with the OP.

"Everyone wins" is no way to design a story, and since the entire third game is about building the Crucible, it would be silly to have an ending option of "don't use the Crucible and win anyway".

You get up to three ways to defeat the Reapers, and if you reject them you get a way to lose with honor. Plus the bonus of seeing that the next cycle is able to improve on the odds and prevail.

Better than a plain MISSION FAILED screen. I'm fully on board with Bioware's way of implementing this.

#318
IanPolaris

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Cant Planet wrote...

Absolutely agreeing with the OP.

"Everyone wins" is no way to design a story, and since the entire third game is about building the Crucible, it would be silly to have an ending option of "don't use the Crucible and win anyway".

You get up to three ways to defeat the Reapers, and if you reject them you get a way to lose with honor. Plus the bonus of seeing that the next cycle is able to improve on the odds and prevail.

Better than a plain MISSION FAILED screen. I'm fully on board with Bioware's way of implementing this.


I'd be with you if Shepard's sacrifice (perhaps only with high EMS) allowed the NEXT cycle to win without using the crucible.  Then yes, it would be a bittersweet ending.

But that's not what we are being told.

-Polaris

#319
zyntifox

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Cant Planet wrote...

Absolutely agreeing with the OP.

"Everyone wins" is no way to design a story, and since the entire third game is about building the Crucible, it would be silly to have an ending option of "don't use the Crucible and win anyway".

You get up to three ways to defeat the Reapers, and if you reject them you get a way to lose with honor. Plus the bonus of seeing that the next cycle is able to improve on the odds and prevail.

Better than a plain MISSION FAILED screen. I'm fully on board with Bioware's way of implementing this.


I thought the third game was about unifying the galaxy? Damn, shouldn't have wasted my time on Tutchanka and Rannoch then.

#320
Rohirrim

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IanPolaris wrote...

Of course it was an F.U. to the fans. I don't see how you can play the refusal ending, knowing that the catalyst is clearly an authorial device so the authors can speak to you, and come to any other reasonable conclusion.

It's not about whether or not a conventional victory may have been possible (athough Shepard has made a career out of doing the impossible before), and it's not even about the strict content. It was the WAY it was done.

Let's start with the star-kid's temper tantrum and that is clearly what it was. Why? The starkid is perfectly willing (and willingly tells you!) how to destroy it even though it clearly doesn't regard this solution as the best option, yet it throws a Harbinger-like hissy fit, if you allow it to win? Really? In the context of the game itself, that just doesn't make any sense.

Starkid is able to just "turn off" the crucible when you reject it? Then why didn't it do so before and just win....for that matter why bring Shepard up at all?

Why does the Reject option not have the epilog treatment (which SHOULD be EMS dependant) that the others do? Even if you have to lose this cycle, your EMS should be reflected in HOW you lose. Nada. Just fade to black.

No, in game, it just doesn't add up. However, if you take the starkid as a clear "author's voice", then it does...and it's a clear (and IMHO petty and unprofessional) temper tantrum directed at the fans. Bioware will of course deny it until they are blue in their proverbial face, but it doesn't change what we see on the screen.

The final thing to consider is this: If the option was so reasonable then why wasn't it there in the first place? If it had been, then I don't think anyone would be accusing Bioware of being petty. However, after all these months, after being LIED TO about EMS, MP, and available endings for MONTHS, and the orginal ending bru-ha-ha, Bioware had to know this would be seen as petty even if that wasn't the intent (and I think it was).

Finally, the Bioware tweet insisting, "Oh well the next cycle just used the crucible anyway" is the final insult. Not only does it contradict their own game (where T'Soni explicitly WARNS the next cycle not to use the crucible because it doesn't work), but it also reinforced the idea of basic pettiness, "See, you can only win by having someone buy into our 'candybox' philosophies....no beating impossible odds against our vision for YOU."

-Polaris


Very well written. I absolutely agree.

#321
spiriticon

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I got this ending first by refusing everything and laughed heartily. I just knew rejection had epic fail written all over it.

Modifié par spiriticon, 27 juin 2012 - 10:44 .


#322
IanPolaris

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Cstaf wrote...

Cant Planet wrote...

Absolutely agreeing with the OP.

"Everyone wins" is no way to design a story, and since the entire third game is about building the Crucible, it would be silly to have an ending option of "don't use the Crucible and win anyway".

You get up to three ways to defeat the Reapers, and if you reject them you get a way to lose with honor. Plus the bonus of seeing that the next cycle is able to improve on the odds and prevail.

Better than a plain MISSION FAILED screen. I'm fully on board with Bioware's way of implementing this.


I thought the third game was about unifying the galaxy? Damn, shouldn't have wasted my time on Tutchanka and Rannoch then.


Pretty much.  So much for "our choices matter".  Once you hit 3100 EMS (no matter how), nothing else matters.

-Polaris

#323
clennon8

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Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm reading this a lot here, that people feel insulted by the "Reject" choice. You shouldn't. An option to refuse the Catalyst was requested by many fans, and many of those explicitly said they'd refuse even if it meant a Reaper victory. 

I was one of those who proposed almost the exact scenario we got, as a means to flesh out the "Critical mission failure" you get when you try to walk back to the elevator. And if you believe a conventional victory should've been possible, that's ruled out several times within the game, so I find it incomprehensible that people expected it.

If you want to blame anyone for this option, blame me and others who requested it. It's meant for those who wanted the "Critical mission failure" fleshed out, not as dangling a conventional victory in people's faces only to deny them.

Personally, I find Shepard's lines in Reject too much like sacrificing the future for the sake of a principle, but after all, principles is what this option is about. It is fitting. The result is fitting, and the scenario is still hopeful since it suggests the next cycle will win.


For once, I agree with you Ieldra.  Though I would add this:

Regarding the point that the game tells us over and over that the Reapers cannot be defeated conventionally... That's true. Of course, the game also tells us over and over that the Reapers MUST be destroyed. It also drives home the point that Control is a fool's errand. And, yet, what happens at the end? We get Control and Synthesis as options that lead to quite satisfactory victories, without destroying the Reapers. DERP.

That said, I'm fine with the Reject ending. I didn't expect to win by throwing my fleets at the Reapers. I can see how someone might think it was Bioware saying TROLOLOL, and maybe it was to a slight degree. But I still like it. Yes, the next cycle ends the Reaping by using the Crucible anyway, but it's quite easy to headcanon that they had a lot more time to prepare than Shepard's cycle did, and they made improvements to the Crucible, such that they were able to just flat out destroy the Reapers with no serious drawbacks. *shrugs* I'll go with that until someone at Bioware contradicts it.

Modifié par clennon8, 27 juin 2012 - 10:45 .


#324
Eluril

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People who believe the Reapers can be defeated conventionally are stupid. It's like saying why don't the Elves, Men and Dwarves in Middle Earth just march to the Dark Tower of Sauron and chop it down....

#325
spiriticon

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Did we not unify the galaxy throughout the entire third game? Isn't that what the entire 35 hours of gameplay was about or am I missing something?

I don't really want to see cutscenes of my war assets get squashed by the reapers anyway.