531 réponses à ce sujet

[Feanor_II]

Well, I liked that one, a totally different scenario, a postumous victory

[IanPolaris]

Optimystic_X wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

oldag07 wrote...

Reapers don't improve technologically, but civilizations do...and you can get a LOT of tech improvement in 50,000 years...not to mention buidling a LOT of ships.

Wrong. They absorb all of the knowledge that previous civilizations have making them stronger every cycle.

No they don't.  Look at the Reapers in the 50,000 year old holograms fighting the Protheans.  Look also at the 30 million year old corpse of the Derelict Reaper.

Even if they did absorb the knowledge, technologically the Reapers appear to be completely stagnant.

-Polaris

Necessity is the mother of invention. They haven't needed to change their design because they've been winning every cycle. Furthermore, the other cycles never innovate anything either because they're all building off Reaper technology. 

Still doesn't change my point.  You can't "turn on" technological progress because you suddenly need it.   Doesn't work that way.  We KNOW that the Reapers go into Dark Space and essentially "go to sleep" for about 50,000 years.  What that means is if an already agressive and technological civilization got Liara's data (say the Yahg) and started with 20th century tech and had 50,000 years and FULL info and warning?

The Reapers get curbstomped before they realize they HAVE to beef up.  Chances are good they'd never be allowed to wake up and be slaughtered in Darkspace long  before the 50,000 years are up.

-Polaris

[spiriticon]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Necessity is the mother of invention. They haven't needed to change their design because they've been winning every cycle. Furthermore, the other cycles never innovate anything either because they're all building off Reaper technology. 

Good point. Every cycle only gets as that far in their evolution because of reaper technology in the first place. Without reaper tech, they'd be so far behind the reapers in 50000 years its not even playground fight.

[Kryptice]

How can the Refuse ending be an automatic win for the Reapers? My EMS was nearly 7,000, I had the largest fleet in the galaxy and managed to unite all races. So am I to believe that after Shepard says no to the Catalyst and delivers a very inspirational speech about self-determination, the war was lost? So no one came after Shepard, perhaps to help her find the off switch to that wretched "A.I." intelligence controlling the Reapers? (That would certainly have shut down the Reapers if we are to take the "central brain of the Reapers" plot twist you included in the EC.)

The outcome of the Refuse ending, which discounts AGAIN all of the player's previous choices, EMS rating and War Assets, basically means: either pick one of the three choices offered or pay the price of defying the god child. Seriously, Bioware? Why even bother including this fourth option if it will always turn out the same regardless of what you do throughout the entire trilogy?

And you dare claim it's not an insult? Then why does the Catalyst voice sound so creepy all of a sudden when it says "So be it!"? Was that a dramatic way of ending the plot that says Shepard and all the brave souls fighting alongside her have FAILED and could not find another way? Could none of the brilliant minds working on the Crucible modify the super weapon with the new information, perhaps configuring the Citadel relay to kill only the Reapers and the A.I. construct?And we are expected to believe that the same ones that fail for saying no to the god child can repair the mass relays across the galaxy if we opt for one of the three colors?

Artistic vision, right? Well, I guess that's one way to put it. I call it bad writing, and the worst way of rewarding players who picked the only choice that makes sense in that particular setup.

I'm not buying it, Bioware (literally.) You have failed me for the last time.

[IanPolaris]

Feanor_II wrote...

Well, I liked that one, a totally different scenario, a postumous victory

If your forces lost (with high EMS) in such a way that it permitted the next cycle to win on their own terms, sure.  But according to Bioware it doesn't.  You were just "too dumb" (my words) to use the crucible but they did.

Not cool.

-Polaris

[Rip504]

LivingHitokiri wrote...

oldag07 wrote...

How many major fleets were required to beat one reaper? How many reapers were around Earth?

We beat sovereign type class in me 1 with minimal forces and without having prio knowledge.
Another sovereign class was defeated in rannoch by a meere threaser maw.
Another 1 was defeated in Ranoch by a single man aiming at their weakness just right when theya re about to shoot.
Another 2 mini class AA reapers where defeated in Earth by Shepard with Chain and Thanix missiles.

According to Prothean VI almost all reaper forces where gathered arroudn Citadel and Earth after they got Illusive man information. Only small forces in Palaven and Thessia where still fighting there.

I saw clearly in the fight and cinematics reapers getting decimated by 1  shot if they hit them at their weakness, which is clealry when they open their "mouth" to fire. We saw that in numerous occassions and in almost all times the reapers easily died that way.


So we that got the best minds in the galaxy, best fleet, whole galactic armada united that even BUILD crucible cannot manage to exploit reapers weakness and beat them... really?

Their weakness? After being shot at for who knows how long. It was never One shot. We had our allied forces in one spot,and did not kick the Reapers off of Earth,until we use the crucible. Yea we are "one shotting" Reapers now...

Modifié par Rip504, 27 juin 2012 - 11:17 .

[donosaur]

Where does it say the next cycle used the crucible? I didn't see this anywhere. What the f, guys

[IanPolaris]

spiriticon wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Necessity is the mother of invention. They haven't needed to change their design because they've been winning every cycle. Furthermore, the other cycles never innovate anything either because they're all building off Reaper technology. 

Good point. Every cycle only gets as that far in their evolution because of reaper technology in the first place. Without reaper tech, they'd be so far behind the reapers in 50000 years its not even playground fight.

That's not really true.  Humans were on the verge of technological parity within a couple of decades after discovering the Mars Ruins and much of that was NOT Reaper Tech.  In fact Humans were starting to pull ahead of the other races (even the Salarians) at a frightening pace (the other races were afraid of humanity for a reason).

No reason to think this wouldn't be true on a larger scale.  50,000 years is a long time.  Consider how far our own earth has advanced in just 500.  Think about it.

-Polaris

[spiriticon]

IanPolaris wrote...

 What that means is if an already agressive and technological civilization got Liara's data (say the Yahg) and started with 20th century tech and had 50,000 years and FULL info and warning?

-Polaris

Impossible. Only the most primitive civilisation is allowed to live through each cycle. And that means they don't even know how to read and write.

[IanPolaris]

donosaur wrote...

Where does it say the next cycle used the crucible? I didn't see this anywhere. What the f, guys

It was on twitter and on a post (one of which was by the producer of the game IIRC).  It's true I am sorry to say.

-Polaris

[Rip504]

Optimystic_X wrote...

We've been showing you people how conventional victory is impossible for months. Now EC lands and proves it once and for all.

Your tears, they are delicious.Give me them.

[IanPolaris]

spiriticon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

 What that means is if an already agressive and technological civilization got Liara's data (say the Yahg) and started with 20th century tech and had 50,000 years and FULL info and warning?

-Polaris

Impossible. Only the most primitive civilisation is allowed to live through each cycle. And that means they don't even know how to read and write.

The Yahg were left alone.  That is CANON and they had tech of our 20th century.

-Polaris

[oldag07]

IanPolaris wrote...

oldag07 wrote...

Reapers don't improve technologically, but civilizations do...and you can get a LOT of tech improvement in 50,000 years...not to mention buidling a LOT of ships.

Wrong. They absorb all of the knowledge that previous civilizations have making them stronger every cycle.

No they don't.  Look at the Reapers in the 50,000 year old holograms fighting the Protheans.  Look also at the 30 million year old corpse of the Derelict Reaper.

Even if they did absorb the knowledge, technologically the Reapers appear to be completely stagnant.

-Polaris

The premises these arguments are built on aren't that strong.  Have you actually analyzed the weapons that the Reapers have had over the course of time?  Is there anywhere that bioware stated that Reaper tech is stagnent?  

Optimystic_X wrote... 
Necessity is the mother of invention. They haven't needed to change their design because they've been winning every cycle. Furthermore, the other cycles never innovate anything either because they're all building off Reaper technology. 

It is like saying until Vietnam, the United States never had to advance its weapons technology because it have won every war it its history until then.  Imagine the US going into World War Two with muskets.  It is just as logical to assume a force that has survived and won that many wars would have to be the masters of innovation.  The citadel "trap" didn't work, so they had the alpha relay.  The alpha relay was destroyed, so they just do a full blown invasion. The Reapers seem pretty adaptable to me. 

Modifié par oldag07, 27 juin 2012 - 11:21 .

[Ryzaki]

IanPolaris wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

 What that means is if an already agressive and technological civilization got Liara's data (say the Yahg) and started with 20th century tech and had 50,000 years and FULL info and warning?

-Polaris

Impossible. Only the most primitive civilisation is allowed to live through each cycle. And that means they don't even know how to read and write.

The Yahg were left alone.  That is CANON and they had tech of our 20th century.

-Polaris

Yup. And I don't blame them. Yahg have teeth.

[spiriticon]

IanPolaris wrote...

That's not really true.  Humans were on the verge of technological parity within a couple of decades after discovering the Mars Ruins and much of that was NOT Reaper Tech.  In fact Humans were starting to pull ahead of the other races (even the Salarians) at a frightening pace (the other races were afraid of humanity for a reason).

No reason to think this wouldn't be true on a larger scale.  50,000 years is a long time.  Consider how far our own earth has advanced in just 500.  Think about it.

-Polaris

Yes, humans were pulling ahead of other races, more so than any other race before it. But they are nowhere near that of the reapers. If they were, they'd be building mass relays of their own, and going into dark space to find the reapers.

[LivingHitokiri]

Rip504 wrote...

LoL. The battle took most of our allied forces to get two people aboard the Citadel. Holding our own? Earth was lost,is under Reaper control and is not retaken until the crucible is used. So no we were not holding the line. We were losing and Earth was/is still under Reaper control.

So you winning,is nothing more then a morale boosting message with no physical proof of victory? Rannoch,a planet in Reaper controlled space. Great victory! No the Reapers did not focus all of their forces on Earth/Citadel. LoL Just enough to defend. As stated by Shepard,the Reapers had thought they already won. Why send all of your forces to a winning battlefield,when you are fighting a war on more then one front? Now that makes little to no sense.

Rate of death again. Why or how will it change? If we continue to lose billions compared to a few Reaper deaths,It is obvious that conventional victory is not possible. Are we not fighting? Did Sword and Hammer wipe out all of the Reaper forces occupying Earth/Citadel? No they did not. We have our Allied forces in one place. Holding the line is not the same as killing all of the Reapers. By your own statement you admit that conventional victory is far fetched. There we have all of our forces fighting in one place,and no we our not wiping the Table with the Reapers. We are sustaining massive losses.

Reapers never took over the Earth as you claim there was always resistance in Earth and the only reason we managed to land on earth and do the operations and have a base was thanks to that resistance, all plan worked as Anderson and other forces on Earth held them back, only 1 plannet was lost accoridng to the game and thats Thessia. Before crucible was used you can clearly see destroyed reapers floating arround and plenty of our battleships still fighting, after the ending  according to narrative   ind estroy ending the worlds managed to rebuild almost everything faster than expected which means we didnt had major losses untill then, taking into conclusionthat we where holding back against reapers just fine.

The EMS wasnt just morale boost, it was secret  analysis of our galactic forces that only few could see if not Shepard alone.
it is a fact that reapers sent almost all their forces in earth, all their MAJOR forces where in earth, prothean VI says it andresona nd hacket confirms it when you get in Sol system.
I explained to you that the reapers showing in whole galaxy was either bioware lazyness or another plot hole to explain how the hell  they where conquering whole gaalaxy when there was no sign in the game that they did, especially after we kick their asses in Rannoch, Tutsanka etc. Rannoch was reaper free, we freed them and they came to help us to free Earth, like we did in Tutsanka as well.
You really expect Krogans to let their plannet and help Turians on palaven instead, no, they did thata fter their planet was SAFE from reapers and they even let their only fertile female on that SAFE planet.

Again, the reapers where loosing ground hence they USED earth as shield, they never came across such adaptive forces BEFORE them,Javik confirms it plenty of times, the sole reason why everyone believes that we can do it is from what we alreayd did, conquer the impossible and fight against odds.

Crucible was underestimating organics and it was confirmed since ME 1 hence why later on he was proved wrong as Shepard reaches him despite him saying that would NEVER happen.

The battle with unified Galaxy wasnt just holding the line it was STRIKE them back .
Not only we managed to get the main reaper forces to focus on defend citadel on Earth but we also gave time for others in Palaven and Thessia to strike back.
There is no indication that after all this and our great forces that we where loosing, only bull**** godchild said that and the amazing plot holes of bioware did it.

[PsyrenY]

IanPolaris wrote...

Still doesn't change my point.  You can't "turn on" technological progress because you suddenly need it.   Doesn't work that way.  We KNOW that the Reapers go into Dark Space and essentially "go to sleep" for about 50,000 years.  What that means is if an already agressive and technological civilization got Liara's data (say the Yahg) and started with 20th century tech and had 50,000 years and FULL info and warning?

The Reapers get curbstomped before they realize they HAVE to beef up.  Chances are good they'd never be allowed to wake up and be slaughtered in Darkspace long  before the 50,000 years are up.

-Polaris

Sure, that's possible. That could even be how the next cycle won. We'll never know for sure.

oldag07 wrote...

It is like saying until Vietnam, the United States never had to advance its weapons technology because it have won every war it its history until then.  Imagine the US going into World War Two with muskets.  It is just as logical to assume a force that has survived and won that many wars would have to be the masters of innovation.  The citadel "trap" didn't work, so they had the alpha relay.  The alpha relay was destroyed, so they just do a full blown invasion. The Reapers seem pretty adaptable to me. 

This is a poor analogy. Human technology advanced because we were always fighting other humans, i.e. opponents with the same tech as us. Reapers have never had to fight Reapers, so they had no reason to improve.

The Catalyst flat out tells you that they don't even consider this to be a real war. It's like stubborn children refusing bedtime to them.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 27 juin 2012 - 11:25 .

[Captiosus77]

Eluril wrote...

People who believe the Reapers can be defeated conventionally are stupid. It's like saying why don't the Elves, Men and Dwarves in Middle Earth just march to the Dark Tower of Sauron and chop it down....

Fail analogy that displays limited knowledge of the history of Middle Earth.

But I'll run with it anyway...

So, you're still on Rannoch, then?
No?
Then you beat a Reaper.
With conventional weapons.

Oh, wait..
You're stuck in London and haven't gotten to the beam yet?
No?
Then you beat another Reaper.
With conventional weapons.

In Mass Effect 2, and then twice in Mass Effect 3, we defeated Reapers (well, two Reapers and a Proto-Reaper) through conventional means. But the game belabors the point that we supposedly can't beat them with conventional weapons. But we just did. Twice! Near the end of the game. With no one else but myself and my team.

Shepard and an entire squad could take down the Human Proto-Reaper; Shepard, damn near alone, took down a Reaper; Shepard and two teammates can take down a Reaper; but the entire galaxy can't stand against the Reapers because the game says they can't be beat conventionally?

See the gigantic problem?

[IanPolaris]

oldag07 wrote...

It is like saying until Vietnam, the United States never had to advance its weapons technology because it have won every war it its history until then.  Imagine the US going into World War Two with muskets.  It is just as logical to assume a force that has survived and won that many wars would have to be the masters of innovation.  The citadel "trap" didn't work, so they had the alpha relay.  The alpha relay was destroyed, so they just do a full blown invasion. The Reapers seem pretty adaptable to me. 

There is no evidence that the Reapers are a living breathing civilization though and lots of evidence that at least suggests they aren't.  For example we know from ME1 that the Reapers spend 99% of their time sleeping in Dark Space and most of the rest just fighting.  We never see any NEW Reaper tech and the Reaper tech we do see that is millions of years old is perfectly compatible with reaper tech from today (which would emphatically not be true if the Reapers improved technologically even gradually).

The best evidence we have suggests that the Reapers are completely static technologically.  They might use some new ideas but don't seem to invent any and even use the new ideas on an ad-hoc basis as best.

-Polaris

[ChurchOfZod]

I can see how fans would see this as a sly insult to the retake effort, but I loved it. The altered stargazer scene and hopeful yet sorrowful Liara VI were great cappers to the self determination ending.

[spiriticon]

IanPolaris wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

 What that means is if an already agressive and technological civilization got Liara's data (say the Yahg) and started with 20th century tech and had 50,000 years and FULL info and warning?

-Polaris

Impossible. Only the most primitive civilisation is allowed to live through each cycle. And that means they don't even know how to read and write.

The Yahg were left alone.  That is CANON and they had tech of our 20th century.

If the reapers had won the war, the yahg would have no tech. They maybe allowed to live (not sure where you got this from), but doesn't mean the tech will.

Modifié par spiriticon, 27 juin 2012 - 11:25 .

[Cant Planet]

IanPolaris wrote...

Cstaf wrote...

Cant Planet wrote...

Absolutely agreeing with the OP.

"Everyone wins" is no way to design a story, and since the entire third game is about building the Crucible, it would be silly to have an ending option of "don't use the Crucible and win anyway".

You get up to three ways to defeat the Reapers, and if you reject them you get a way to lose with honor. Plus the bonus of seeing that the next cycle is able to improve on the odds and prevail.

Better than a plain MISSION FAILED screen. I'm fully on board with Bioware's way of implementing this.

I thought the third game was about unifying the galaxy? Damn, shouldn't have wasted my time on Tutchanka and Rannoch then.

Pretty much.  So much for "our choices matter".  Once you hit 3100 EMS (no matter how), nothing else matters.

-Polaris

Y'all want to nitpick my wording when you understood what I was saying? Fine, I'll rephrase.

The third game, from Liara onward, has "build the Crucible as a superweapon" as the main strategy for defeating the Reapers. It's in the background of the entire remainder of the story, it's what's happening as you unite the other races to act as backup (since a conventional military win is considered impossible). It's what everything is leading up to. It's the climax of the story. It's considered by everyone to be the improbable, but best, option for surviving.

Better?

If you can win by rejecting the Crucible options, there's not much point to having the Crucible options. Might as well make it like Dragon Age: Origins, but without the Morrigan bargain at the end. Just gather up a bunch of people and fight, and nothing at the end to make you stop and consider what to do.

To me, the best part of the EC is that all three Crucible endings have appeal now, and the decision is actually challenging. Before, picking Destroy was pretty easy.

[PsyrenY]

Captiosus77 wrote...

So, you're still on Rannoch, then?
No?
Then you beat a Reaper.
With conventional weapons.

Oh, wait..
You're stuck in London and haven't gotten to the beam yet?
No?
Then you beat another Reaper.
With conventional weapons.

2/1000, good kill ratio there :innocent:

Beating Reapers conventionally isn't the problem. It's beating THE Reapers. i.e. ALL of them.

[IanPolaris]

spiriticon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That's not really true.  Humans were on the verge of technological parity within a couple of decades after discovering the Mars Ruins and much of that was NOT Reaper Tech.  In fact Humans were starting to pull ahead of the other races (even the Salarians) at a frightening pace (the other races were afraid of humanity for a reason).

No reason to think this wouldn't be true on a larger scale.  50,000 years is a long time.  Consider how far our own earth has advanced in just 500.  Think about it.

-Polaris

Yes, humans were pulling ahead of other races, more so than any other race before it. But they are nowhere near that of the reapers. If they were, they'd be building mass relays of their own, and going into dark space to find the reapers.

Yes.  Now imagine the Reapers overlooking 20th century earth as they (canonically) overlooked the 20th century Yahg. 

Give humanity 50,000 years more to develope for the next cycle?  Chances are good the Humans wouldn't lose a man.  That's what the Yahg should have been like in the next cycle ESPECIALLY if they got Liara's capsule.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

spiriticon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

spiriticon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

 What that means is if an already agressive and technological civilization got Liara's data (say the Yahg) and started with 20th century tech and had 50,000 years and FULL info and warning?

-Polaris

Impossible. Only the most primitive civilisation is allowed to live through each cycle. And that means they don't even know how to read and write.

The Yahg were left alone.  That is CANON and they had tech of our 20th century.

If the reapers had won the war, the yahg would have no tech. They maybe allowed to live (not sure where you got this from), but doesn't mean the tech will.

We are specifically told that the Reapers were ignoring the Yahg.  It's right in the game.

-Polaris