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I just stumbled over an interesting question: why not TIM?


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#1
CptData

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Right now I have a very interesting chat with Igib, a fellow fan of the Mass Effect series.

He brought up an interesting question regarding the Starchild. Basically it was:

What purpose does that kid have?
Easy. It's a guide. A narrator. It explains you what choices you have, what buttons you have to push. There's also some fluff to explain why it's here and what it has to do with the Reapers (resulting in all the nonsense jazz we know). But technically, the kid has only one function: to explain you, the player, what option Shepard has.

In a way it's fascinating: that kid is more confusing than it helps. It simply should have been a VI of the Citadel and no AI, explaining you the three options in a more logical way. Something like that:

Shepard: What options do I have?
Station-VI: First, there is "destruction". This option may destroy all synthetic beings, however, it also may destroy all organic beings as well. You can also try to assume control over this station, forcing the synthetics you call "Reapers" to withdraw and stop the harvest. It may fail, however. And the third option may end an ancient conflict between synthetic and organics, but the results can not be computed by this VI. Not enough data.
Shepard: Do I have to pick one of those options?
Station-VI: Not enough data.
Shepard: Is there no other way to solve this conflict?
Station-VI: Not enough data.
Shepard: So it's a full risk. Destroying may end everything, Control may fail and the Reapers continue their work. And the third option may unleash something we can't control.
Station-VI: Please formulate a valid question.
Shepard: I should go.

But nooooo ... BW made him an AI and part of the Reapers. And there we have the mess, the big issue.


Or does TIM do the trick??
In a way TIM could have been a better narrator for the last decision.

TIM is an established, well known character. He's also the face you don't trust anymore, making your decision even MORE difficult. He simply could explain all three options from what he learned from studying the Crucible, the Citadel and the Prothean VI. After all, he's not dumb. His own choice is "Control".

However, placing TIM instead of Starchild comes with exactly one problem: Shepard needs to stop him before he can pick a choice but also needs to keep him alive to get all the info needed.

Could have been done 'though.


We ALSO could replace TIM with Anderson, but then we have the issue to explain why Anderson knows all the stuff. He doesn't, has no time to learn it. So TIM is the only option here.


Or something different?

Well, there is another solution to replace Starchild than TIM and a Station-VI: remove the decision part as whole.

Shepard simply hits one, big, effing button. And it unleashes a blast that either may hit the Reapers only or hits more targets if your EMS wasn't high enough. The lower EMS you have, the more losses you'll experience: first EDI, then the Geth, then a portion of organics, then more organics and finally all living and synthetic beings, stripping the galaxy of life. Also the outcome should depend a bit on your morality (without punishing renegade players).

Actually, that third solution would have left least questions and wouldn't have tried to give the Reapers a purpose. They simply are. Or better: they simply were. No need to explain why they exist.


In a way, Starchild messed up the whole story. And it's still in the EC. I can accept it given the fact BW was not changing the endings with the EC. However, they could have done it without adding to much new stuff. As I said: degrading the Starchild to a Station-VI could have worked already. A cold, monotonous voice, that's it. No "take this, it's better" and no stupid explanations.
Or TIM. Actually, I prefer that TIM-solution more and more, the more I think about it.
Or, as I said, something entirely different, based on morality, EMS and such - one button that gives you a result based on the way how you played your Shepard.


And I bet I wasn't the first one with that idea.
Just the (currently) last one being stupid enough to post the jazz. :lol:

#2
KevShep

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Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?

Modifié par KevShep, 27 juin 2012 - 06:36 .


#3
CptData

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KevShep wrote...

Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?


Good question, next question.

Still think: TIM works in the role as Starchild much better. We know him. We know he's most likely manipulating you. And he is the only one besides Liara who might have enough info to figure out how the Crucible is intended to work with the Citadel.

Wouldn't solve the idea about three choices in the end, however. Something a lot of people do have valid issues with.

#4
Jamie9

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KevShep wrote...

Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?


I believe Shepard was TIM's backup plan. TIM realised he could become indoctrinated or be killed so he had Shepard as a backup for humanity.

#5
Jamie9

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It was one of the two times I laughed during the EC. The first was the "I want details" investigate option.

#6
KevShep

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Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?


I believe Shepard was TIM's backup plan. TIM realised he could become indoctrinated or be killed so he had Shepard as a backup for humanity.


it made more sense as indoc attempt.

#7
Jamie9

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KevShep wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?


I believe Shepard was TIM's backup plan. TIM realised he could become indoctrinated or be killed so he had Shepard as a backup for humanity.


it made more sense as indoc attempt.


On one of the vids in the Cerberus HQ, TIM tells Kai Leng: "I haven't given up on Shepard just yet."

I see TIM as a sympathetic character who's gone way off the deep end by the time of ME2/ME3 though.

#8
Dendio1

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TIM would have died and created a TIM-reaper god who aims to destroy/control all that are not human. No thanks

#9
Dendio1

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Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?


I believe Shepard was TIM's backup plan. TIM realised he could become indoctrinated or be killed so he had Shepard as a backup for humanity.


it made more sense as indoc attempt.


On one of the vids in the Cerberus HQ, TIM tells Kai Leng: "I haven't given up on Shepard just yet."

I see TIM as a sympathetic character who's gone way off the deep end by the time of ME2/ME3 though.


TIM says I need you to believe because the reapers were subconciously stalling/preventing him from using the control option. You get the opportunity to ask him to just do it  multiple times. He either redirects, claims that he can't or gets mad and says no one is controlling him.

As for Leng, I think TIM knew shepard was more than a match for Leng after the citadel failure.

#10
KevShep

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Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?


I believe Shepard was TIM's backup plan. TIM realised he could become indoctrinated or be killed so he had Shepard as a backup for humanity.


it made more sense as indoc attempt.


On one of the vids in the Cerberus HQ, TIM tells Kai Leng: "I haven't given up on Shepard just yet."

I see TIM as a sympathetic character who's gone way off the deep end by the time of ME2/ME3 though.



remember that TIM is indoctrinated during that time also...Where did TIM get those indoc power cause he didnt get them from the reapers( keep in mind that the reapers are millions of years old and TIM is only a few years old and TIMs powers are better then the reapers?).

nothing makes sense!

Modifié par KevShep, 27 juin 2012 - 07:09 .


#11
Jamie9

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KevShep wrote...

remember that TIM is indoctrinated during that time also...Where did TIM get those indoc power cause he didnt get them from the reapers( keep in mind that the reapers are millions of years old and TIM is only a few years old and TIMs powers are better then the reapers?).

nothing makes sense!


TIM was controlling Shep and Anderson through the use of nanites. Maybe he filled the room with them? Sanctuary explains this.

It isn't stronger than the Reapers. TIM is using "fast" indoctrination. Shepard and Anderson would likely have been husks by the end of the day.

TIM did want to stop the Reapers originally. As a man of vision, he would know to have back-ups in place. That was why he brought Shepard back. He could hopefully acquire the Collector Base, and have an asset against the Reapers if Cerberus failed.

#12
xxskyshadowxx

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The Catalyst is simply doing exactly what it claims it was programmed to stop. Technically, depending on the choices the player made with the Geth and how he/she answers EDI's questions/concerns, Shepard does a better job at stopping the conflict between Organics and Synthetics than the Catalyst does with it's periodical genocides versus Shepard's use of basic common sense, acceptance and diplomacy.

But according to BioWare, suicide, genocide, enslavement and physiological subversion are much better options than common sense, acceptance and diplomacy.

#13
KevShep

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Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

remember that TIM is indoctrinated during that time also...Where did TIM get those indoc power cause he didnt get them from the reapers( keep in mind that the reapers are millions of years old and TIM is only a few years old and TIMs powers are better then the reapers?).

nothing makes sense!


TIM was controlling Shep and Anderson through the use of nanites. Maybe he filled the room with them? Sanctuary explains this.

It isn't stronger than the Reapers. TIM is using "fast" indoctrination. Shepard and Anderson would likely have been husks by the end of the day.

TIM did want to stop the Reapers originally. As a man of vision, he would know to have back-ups in place. That was why he brought Shepard back. He could hopefully acquire the Collector Base, and have an asset against the Reapers if Cerberus failed.


indoctrination is NOT direct control. they are two different means of control...they are not the same thing!

What TIM is doing to shep is NOT indoctrination.

Modifié par KevShep, 27 juin 2012 - 07:23 .


#14
Jamie9

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KevShep wrote...

What TIM is doing to shep is NOT indoctrination.


Yes it is. Through the nanites (the way all indoctrination works) TIM gained control of Shep's limbic system.

#15
KevShep

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Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

What TIM is doing to shep is NOT indoctrination.


Yes it is. Through the nanites (the way all indoctrination works) TIM gained control of Shep's limbic system.


The limbic system is not your control functions. Your Limbic System controls your fear and emotions related to survival. Another word for indoctrination is manipulation. There is no manipulation with direct control.

Modifié par KevShep, 27 juin 2012 - 07:29 .


#16
KevShep

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Jamie9 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

What TIM is doing to shep is NOT indoctrination.


Yes it is. Through the nanites (the way all indoctrination works) TIM gained control of Shep's limbic system.


Also Indoctrination is ONLY done through altrasonic noise targating your limbic system ( limbic system does not mean your limbs) in which the reapers try to get you to listen to there suggestions through fear of not surviving.

Modifié par KevShep, 27 juin 2012 - 07:35 .


#17
The Honorary Krogan

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I would have liked it better if the catylst spoke through the corpse of the illusive man the same way the rachni queen used the krogan corpses...

#18
Hyperion II

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KevShep wrote...

Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?


Much like Seren before him, TIM want Shepard's approval because he respects shepard. He wants someone to tell him that he is right. that he is doing good.

#19
BonFire5

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KevShep wrote...

Why does TIM say..."because I need you to believe"?

Why would he even say that to shepard?


He put a lot of money into bringing Shepard back to life. He'd want to believe Shepard would be on his side.

Plus, you know, that suit is awesome. Not a whole lot of people can not listen to a guy in that awesome a suit.

#20
Jonathan Shepard

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Re-writing the Illusive Man confrontation to be the part where you make the decision is a beautiful idea. I'm actually very surprised I haven't come across it before. ...I wish BioWare would give us modding toold for ME3...

I think it would fit very well to have him monologue about his great triumph, and Shepard actually stops TIM as he's about to complete his goal. Then, (since TIM would've explained all the possibilities he found could be realized with the crucible), Shepard gets to make his choice from TIM's info, which I trust far more than the Starbrat's.

#21
CptData

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Jonathan Shepard wrote...

Re-writing the Illusive Man confrontation to be the part where you make the decision is a beautiful idea. I'm actually very surprised I haven't come across it before. ...I wish BioWare would give us modding toold for ME3...

I think it would fit very well to have him monologue about his great triumph, and Shepard actually stops TIM as he's about to complete his goal. Then, (since TIM would've explained all the possibilities he found could be realized with the crucible), Shepard gets to make his choice from TIM's info, which I trust far more than the Starbrat's.


Something like that could have worked too. It's still about the same three decisions, but they would feel more like Shepard's free decision, not like something Starchild tries to force on Shepard.


TIM works well in that setting. He is, besides the Shadow Broker, most likely the only one who has enough info about the Crucible, the Citadel/Catalyst and the three options.

#22
PoisonMushroom

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I'd never thought of it but this would have made more sense. And you're right, I'm not really sure what the Catalyst's presence achieves, particularly now most of the allusions to indoctrination are gone.