531 réponses à ce sujet

[Oransel]

According to the lore. I'd say yes, it is possible, though very unlikely. 9000 EMS should be a victory with heavy casualties, in my opinion.

To those who say that conventional victory is impossible because Hackett said it. Hackett is incompetent old moron who lost 2  fleets in relatively avoidable situation. 

To those who say that conventional victory is impossible because it violates ME lore. Guess what? ME3 have already violated lore by turning Reapers into retarded squids who can be shot from roof with Cain gun. 

What I wanted to see in the first place: Shepard and Anderson up there near control panel, sharing last words, Citadel opens, Crucible fires - what happens next is up to your EMS. Sure it would still be Deus Ex Machina (Crucible) and weak writing, but that was alright way to finish the series with noone complaining. 

Starkid violated the lore, literally raped the plot to the point where now everything is possible. Synthesis is exactly as impossible as conventional victory, yet it happens.

Modifié par Oransel, 27 juin 2012 - 07:52 .

[Hudathan]

No.

[Oransel]

Hudathan wrote...

No.

Yes.

[Hudathan]

Oransel wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

No.

Yes.

Prove it.

[Olaf_de_IJsbeer]

Oransel wrote...
To those who say that conventional victory is impossible because it violates ME lore. Guess what? ME3 have already violated lore by turning Reapers into retarded squids who can be shot from roof with Cain gun. 

Yeah, no. Good luck with destroying thousands upon thousands (if not millions) of Sovereign-class Reapers this way.

[Oransel]

Hudathan wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Hudathan wrote...

No.

Yes.

Prove it.

You first.

[Father_Jerusalem]

No.

Any other stupid questions?

[Wyatt Shepard]

yah no. This is made very VERY Clear through the whole series. Killing one reaper is almost impossible and takes huge effort. Killing all them conventionally would never, ever work.

[mad825]

Even Javik admitted it was possible so why not?

[Fdmatt]

Naysayers tend to inflate the number of Sovereign class Reapers even though we know only one is created per cycle. Destroyers simply aren't a problem as proven by the Turian Navy's tactics during the initial invasion of Palaven. Just like Bioware skewed certain details to make people more prone to pick Synthesis they diddled facts to make conventional victory impossible.

Turians reverse engineered the Thanix cannon within six months of Sovereign's attack yet we seem completely technologically at their mercy? Yeah right.

[Allan Schumacher]

Maybe a more pertinent question is:

Is it acceptable that conventional victory is not obtainable?

It's one thing to want to be able to win conventionally. But is the disappointment with it not being possible fed more from the fact that someone wanted it to happen but didn't, or because it realistically doesn't make sense?


I was on the record a couple months ago stating that I agreed with the notion many posters had that refusing the reapers should have been a viable option, but I was also clear in stating that I'd have it result in failure because in my opinion it makes it a more interesting choice. So I'm just asking this to get a better understanding from those that are disappointed.

[Oransel]

There is no proof about this being impossible except for several people thinking it is impossible. That is the problem for me. After ME1, yeah I'd say it is impossible. After ME2, same. But after all I have seen in ME3 with Reapers being incredibly weak... Yes, they can be just shot.

[ioannisdenton]

If a conventional victory was obtainable by refusing that would be made cannon instantly by everyone.

[Hicks233]

We're led to belive no because of .

It needs to be though.

[sAxMoNkI]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

No.

Any other stupid questions?

Jeeez why you so mean?

[bigbade]

ioannisdenton is right, but technically the lore says a conventional victory is possible, that being said it would need to be perfectly executed 

Modifié par bigbade, 27 juin 2012 - 07:21 .

[Fdmatt]

Refusal is an interesting option and I'm greatful to Bioware for adding it. But a split option of Refusal wherein an extremely high EMS would've yielded victory even at great cost would have been cool.

I just can't accept a military genius like Hackett being so opposed to a conventional fight but putting all of his stock into a weapon whose function even Kasumi jokes in her goodbye is still completely unknown to the people who built it. Seems flat out stupid.

Modifié par Fdmatt, 27 juin 2012 - 07:23 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe a more pertinent question is:

Is it acceptable that conventional victory is not obtainable?

It's one thing to want to be able to win conventionally. But is the disappointment with it not being possible fed more from the fact that someone wanted it to happen but didn't, or because it realistically doesn't make sense?


I was on the record a couple months ago stating that I agreed with the notion many posters had that refusing the reapers should have been a viable option, but I was also clear in stating that I'd have it result in failure because in my opinion it makes it a more interesting choice. So I'm just asking this to get a better understanding from those that are disappointed.

Absolutely it's acceptable. It's hammered into your head through the course of three games that Reapers are unstoppable. To fight them conventionally is utter suicide. Just look at the attack on the Citadel. Yes, you killed Soverign (after Shepard broke the link between Sovvy and Saren) but how many ships did the fleet lose? And that was ONE stationary Reaper and a bunch of Geth ships (Freudian slip, I had originally typed "sheeps"), not the entire Reaper armada.

The thought of beating the Reapers conventionally is even more ridiculous than the thought of me shagging Kristen Bell. And that's pretty damn ridiculous.

[Wulfram]

Conventional victory being possible would make the whole premise of the game kind of ridiculous. Effectively it would have been saying that the Council was right to turn down Shepard right at the start of ME3.

Though I do wonder if it might have been possible if the galactic economy had been shifted to a wartime footing after ME1, and spent 2 years churning out dreadnoughts. A few hundred Destiny Ascensions seem like they might have changed things.

[Ageless Face]

Oransel wrote...

There is no proof about this being impossible except for several people thinking it is impossible. That is the problem for me. After ME1, yeah I'd say it is impossible. After ME2, same. But after all I have seen in ME3 with Reapers being incredibly weak... Yes, they can be just shot.

The reapers in ME3 were little reapers. Destroyers. They are not half as powerfull as Sovereign or Harbinger. They don't use the same shields as Sovereign used, If I remember right. 

Try to take hundereds of reapers as Sovereign or Harby. Not possible.

[NM_Che56]

If conventional means was all it took, then why are we here? Why didn't one of the millions of cycles before get the job done? The Protheans were more advanced and they built their civilization on the ruins of others.

I just think that a conventional victory in an unconventional war is a stretch, even for fiction.

[Menalaos1971]

Had we been able to reject the Crucible Plan entirely, and instead direct all of the galaxy's resources toward fitting every ship in the fleet with the ME2 Normandy's upgraded weapons, shields, and armor, then I could see that fleet being able to stand toe to toe against the Reapers. I could also see this method therefore failing for those that never bothered to pursue and pay for that in their ME2 playthrough.

Modifié par Menalaos1971, 27 juin 2012 - 07:27 .

[Jonny110]

In ME1 I believe vigil says the reasons the reapers took control of the citadel and shut down the mass relays was to stop them from being overrun, suggesting that it is perfectly possible. However, I am remembering this from a while back....

[Dresden867]

Even above 9k EMS (which is where I was on my EC run) the fleet is getting kicked up one side and down the other to deliver the Crucible.

We know for sure that's not 100% of the Reaper fleet at Earth. We also know that we contributed a LOT of the galaxy's resources to that fight (that being what 9k EMS -ought- to represent) and took massive casualties in the process. This is all clear from the current endings (as of EC).

Even assuming the fleet could go on to "win" in this case, finishing the Reapers over Earth... how many does that leave, exactly? Sure, we can weaken them significantly there (and, from what folks have dropped over time, more than has -ever- happened in the past. Our cycle -is-, in point of fact, doing lots more damage than previous ones). Unfortunately, the question becomes: will what we have left afterward be enough to do it -everywhere-?

The answer we are given is no. The evidence of "how that plays out at Earth" suggests strongly that the answer would remain "no" and we would lose, over time.

I understand that a lot of people want an ending in which the answer becomes "yes," but I don't see that as something we're going to be getting as part of the main game, based on the setup we have.

As far as "Hackett said", Hackett is not exactly the only one to make the point. The information in the codex and various other sources in the game back him up. The real argument here is "how much more do the reapers have outside Earth," and obviously, we can't -know- that answer. We're not given it. Debating that answer is just so much forum ******. /laughs

[Aquilas]

No. There are just too many Reapers. Star-jar says its been running the Cycle for aeons. In geological terms, an aeon is a billion years. That's a whole lotta Reapers.

Remember, in ME Sovereign says when the Reapers return their numbers will darken the skies of every world. I believe that's almost literally possible: Reaper overcast.

That doesn't mean BioWare couldn't have broken ME lore and created conditions allowing a conventional victory--they'd already broken ME lore via Star-jar. But given established ME lore and the information available--even Hackett says so several times--a conventional victory over the Reapers in Shepard's cycle is impossible, and by conventional I mean space fleets duking it out with the Reapers.

Modifié par Aquilas, 27 juin 2012 - 07:32 .