531 réponses à ce sujet

[Parker Stephenson]

and also remember, the reapers had preserved many many races in its time all which were most likely warlike in their time, so they would adapt to all strategy plans devised

[Simocrates]

OP is looking for proof in a fictional story.

[Creighton72]

Dessalines wrote...

To think this is to think you know better than every character that was designed in the game to tell you what is happening in the game.... Think about that for a moment. It is like thinking that Krogan's don't need Mordin to do a cure, they just need to believe in good thoughts.
Conventional means is not even possible. It would make the entire threat of the Reapers pathetic. Basically, what you are saying that throughout time that no civlization had enough fire power, or enough unified diveristy to destroy the Reapers until our time. It is silly.

The character does not tell you what is happening in the game the author does. Reapers are very two dimensional enemies that are plot armored. Science is largly thrown out the window along with any basic military tactics. Your just told the Reapers are powerful and can't be beaten and to take it on face value. But they don't tell you why. You have seen reapers in the final battle killed or heavily damaged with conventional weapons. The final way you beat them is not even explained you just stop them with one of three colored lights. Again in a universe where space magic exists anything is possible. So conventional means is not out of the relm of belief. I mean if you believe in any of this stuff, then how can you not believe anything is possible. Realisim went out the door with Element Zero.

[KDD-0063]

Qeylis wrote...

JKA_Nozyspy wrote...

MrRag wrote...

Anything would be better than a deus ex machina ending, even an unrealistic ending. The Crucible should have been a weapon against the Reapers, not a space magic machine. The Catalyst should have been an object, some sort of power source. It was all good until the starchild showed up.

I agree with you 100%

This

Exactly.
For me, I would accept things like the crucible helps, but conventional warfare should not be irrelevent.

[CaliGuy033]

Again, there is no reason to discuss this point. The writers established that it is not possible. Thus, it is not possible. It's tautology.

If the writers say, "There is an element called element zero, and it can be used to create a mass effect," that is now a rule of the story. If the writers say, "The Reapers harvest people," that is now a rule of the story.

Similarly, if they say, "You cannot beat the Reapers conventionally," that is now a rule of the story. That's it. There's no basis for debate about what is "possible."

Now, we could debate what the writers should have done, but that's a different issue than what's possible.

[Nezzer]

The problem about this "cannot beat them conventionally" was ME2. Mass Effect 2 was a waste of time and added nothing to the main story. Yes, it was a fantastic game, but did little contribution to the main plot. Instead of creating a new completely parallel plot, almost a spin off, of humans being abducted by a strange and unknown race, they should've made the main plot a search for answers and solutions to prepare for the arrival of the Reapers.

So, we ended up starting ME3 at the same place we stopped at the end of ME1, without having a single idea about what should we do to stop the Reapers. That's why they pulled the Crucible deus ex machina off their arses. If ME2 did have prepared the plot for ME3, we probably wouldn't need a Crucible or any other deus ex machina device.

[playoff52]

As for was a conventional victory possible? Yes.

All you need is Cain's, Laser guided precision fire guidance, and a Shepard. (edit: this is largely sarcasm incase any are wondering.)

Instead...we get a Reapard. Cause that made /much/ more sense.

Modifié par playoff52, 27 juin 2012 - 11:23 .

[Spartas Husky]

It is possible. Seeing as the next cycle implies the reapers are defeated.

[Creighton72]

Parker Stephenson wrote...

and also remember, the reapers had preserved many many races in its time all which were most likely warlike in their time, so they would adapt to all strategy plans devised

Preserved? Is that what you call melting down into goo? Of course they are preserved. The reapers all demonstrate the same tactics which would be the we are bigger than you tactic. They all use the same type of core, one weapon, one type of shield, one type of hull. They are nothing more than a plot armored enemy. When the Author does not want them to lose they will not lose. No reasons about why, it's just stated and that is what the author wants. If author wants them to get beat in a conventional manner, they will get beat that way.

[Fdmatt]

It's not tautology if they say one thing but constantly display another.

[PoisonMushroom]

I see this come up a lot. As far as I'm concerned the story tells me it's impossible; I'm not going to dig through the stats to prove it otherwise when I can't use conventional warfare anyway.

[MattFini]

Lots of great points in this thread that have argued in favor of a conventional victory.

I agree with each of them. For some reason ME3 chose to massively inflate its number of Reapers and their strength ... the Prothean cycle waged war against the reapers for 100 years. Seemed like the reapers would've cleaned up our cycle in a year or two based on the destruction everywhere.

[Fdmatt]

MattFini wrote...

Lots of great points in this thread that have argued in favor of a conventional victory.

I agree with each of them. For some reason ME3 chose to massively inflate its number of Reapers and their strength ... the Prothean cycle waged war against the reapers for 100 years. Seemed like the reapers would've cleaned up our cycle in a year or two based on the destruction everywhere.

And Javik, one of their best admits we have a better chance!

[Helios969]

Fdmatt wrote...

It's not tautology if they say one thing but constantly display another.

This^

[KDD-0063]

Nezzer wrote...

The problem about this "cannot beat them conventionally" was ME2. Mass Effect 2 was a waste of time and added nothing to the main story. Yes, it was a fantastic game, but did little contribution to the main plot. Instead of creating a new completely parallel plot, almost a spin off, of humans being abducted by a strange and unknown race, they should've made the main plot a search for answers and solutions to prepare for the arrival of the Reapers.

So, we ended up starting ME3 at the same place we stopped at the end of ME1, without having a single idea about what should we do to stop the Reapers. That's why they pulled the Crucible deus ex machina off their arses. If ME2 did have prepared the plot for ME3, we probably wouldn't need a Crucible or any other deus ex machina device.

I actually think ME2 was not bad in implying possible solutions for ME3, even though not actively.
Actively looking for a solution and find it would just be another DEM again which we probably would not want.

The logical idea would be build more forces, establish allies and advance technology.
I would say that the build more forces part should get some screen time in ME2, but ME2 did show ally building and technological advancements if only passively. We now have friends that at least owe us favors in terminus system; we get to work with a radical group who's not afraid of doing forbidden researches; we learn of other races' technology advancing through upgrading the Normandy (and not just the three vital parts)

[Festilence]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe a more pertinent question is:

Is it acceptable that conventional victory is not obtainable?

It's one thing to want to be able to win conventionally. But is the disappointment with it not being possible fed more from the fact that someone wanted it to happen but didn't, or because it realistically doesn't make sense?


I was on the record a couple months ago stating that I agreed with the notion many posters had that refusing the reapers should have been a viable option, but I was also clear in stating that I'd have it result in failure because in my opinion it makes it a more interesting choice. So I'm just asking this to get a better understanding from those that are disappointed.

Absolutely it's acceptable. It's hammered into your head through the course of three games that Reapers are unstoppable. To fight them conventionally is utter suicide. Just look at the attack on the Citadel. Yes, you killed Soverign (after Shepard broke the link between Sovvy and Saren) but how many ships did the fleet lose? And that was ONE stationary Reaper and a bunch of Geth ships (Freudian slip, I had originally typed "sheeps"), not the entire Reaper armada.

The thought of beating the Reapers conventionally is even more ridiculous than the thought of me shagging Kristen Bell. And that's pretty damn ridiculous.

I agree 100%.

[Fdmatt]

Bioware has the egregious problem of twisting their previously displayed facts to push the direction they want to go in.

Oh you managed to recover the Human Reaper that I destroyed?

Really?

[CaliGuy033]

Fdmatt wrote...

It's not tautology if they say one thing but constantly display another.

Helios969 wrote...

This^

 

They did not come anywhere close to "consistently displaying" that it was possible.  They consistently displayed that it was NOT possible.  

If you played through these three games and at any point felt, "Man, Bioware seems to be consistently telling me that I can beat this enemy conventionally!!!", you were doing some pretty serious mental gymnastics.

But hey, I'll give you a shot.  Go ahead and explain to me where Bioware "constantly" displayed that you could conventionally beat the Reapers.

Seriously.  Do it.  I'd love to hear what you can concoct. 

Modifié par CaliGuy033, 27 juin 2012 - 11:40 .

[Dessalines]

Creighton72 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

To think this is to think you know better than every character that was designed in the game to tell you what is happening in the game.... Think about that for a moment. It is like thinking that Krogan's don't need Mordin to do a cure, they just need to believe in good thoughts.
Conventional means is not even possible. It would make the entire threat of the Reapers pathetic. Basically, what you are saying that throughout time that no civlization had enough fire power, or enough unified diveristy to destroy the Reapers until our time. It is silly.

The character does not tell you what is happening in the game the author does. Reapers are very two dimensional enemies that are plot armored. Science is largly thrown out the window along with any basic military tactics. Your just told the Reapers are powerful and can't be beaten and to take it on face value. But they don't tell you why. You have seen reapers in the final battle killed or heavily damaged with conventional weapons. The final way you beat them is not even explained you just stop them with one of three colored lights. Again in a universe where space magic exists anything is possible. So conventional means is not out of the relm of belief. I mean if you believe in any of this stuff, then how can you not believe anything is possible. Realisim went out the door with Element Zero.

The entire world is constructed by the authors.  The conflict is constructed by the authors. Everything is constructed by the authors. It is not plot armored, they are part of the constructed plot. Shepard is part of the constructed plot.  EDI, Garrus, Javilk, Hackett, and when you try to fight them one on one, you are defeated.  Just because you are a real person that plays a character in game, you still must abide by the constructed reality that the author created.  Reality went out the window with Element Zero? Reality went out the window with the start of the game.  This about constructed realism. It is science fiction. The whole thing is not real.
No, no, ...conventional victory is only possible in fanfiction.

Modifié par Dessalines, 27 juin 2012 - 11:42 .

[Egermano]

I actually like the idea that very high EMS could enable conventional victory when going the refuse way. But I like ME3 multiplayer, so I'm biased as that would give a whole lotta reason to grinding N7 ranks.

[Computim]

I'm inclined to believe that, although not possible in THIS cycle, that choosing the rejection ending resulting in a conventional war that was so different than usual and probably resulted in the loss of the citadel, and the Citadel Kid, which would have crippled the main driver of the Reapers, that there really was no future war... I believe, based on the final scene after the credits with the woman and the child that "They fought the war so we didn't have to" means the reapers are gone via conventional means... the crucible didn't work according to Liara, it's in the beacon, so there was obviously a conventional confrontation. It's a bittersweet victory.. but still 'conventional'.

[Grifman1]

Jenonax wrote...

Who knows? But the fact is we didn't even try. We had no plan, no strategy, nothing. What on Earth would we have done if we didn't have the Crucible? Not that i'm advocating the fact we rely on a DEM, but the fact that we don't even try to win conventionally and instead relied on a dangerously ambiguous magic machine we had literally just found is totally unacceptable and nothing about the EC has changed my mind.

Actually a number of conventional battles were fought and lost.  The humans, Asari and Turians all fought conventional naval battles against the Reaper fleets that attacked their homeworlds and in every case lost those battles.  In every case the Reapers were able to successfully land their forces.  So you are wrong in saying in saying it was never tried.

[CaliGuy033]

Egermano wrote...

I actually like the idea that very high EMS could enable conventional victory when going the refuse way. But I like ME3 multiplayer, so I'm biased as that would give a whole lotta reason to grinding N7 ranks.

Now, see, this is a point that could be worthy of discussion.  SHOULD conventional victory have been a possibility that the writers included?

I would say no, but at least it's up for debate.  In contrast, the topic we're actually discussing about what "is possible" in a fictional world.....well, it's ridiculous and silly.

[CaliGuy033]

Computim wrote...

I'm inclined to believe that, although not possible in THIS cycle, that choosing the rejection ending resulting in a conventional war that was so different than usual and probably resulted in the loss of the citadel, and the Citadel Kid, which would have crippled the main driver of the Reapers, that there really was no future war... I believe, based on the final scene after the credits with the woman and the child that "They fought the war so we didn't have to" means the reapers are gone via conventional means... the crucible didn't work according to Liara, it's in the beacon, so there was obviously a conventional confrontation. It's a bittersweet victory.. but still 'conventional'.

Mike Gamble stated on Twitter that the subsequent cycle beat the Reapers by using the Catalyst/Crucible--i.e., learning from our cycle's mistake in refusing to use it.

Modifié par CaliGuy033, 27 juin 2012 - 11:43 .

[MattFini]

Fdmatt wrote...

MattFini wrote...

Lots of great points in this thread that have argued in favor of a conventional victory.

I agree with each of them. For some reason ME3 chose to massively inflate its number of Reapers and their strength ... the Prothean cycle waged war against the reapers for 100 years. Seemed like the reapers would've cleaned up our cycle in a year or two based on the destruction everywhere.

And Javik, one of their best admits we have a better chance!

And that's the thing ... Javilk seems genuinely impressed that Shepard united the whole galaxy against the reapers.  If you examine Mass Effect thematically as a trilogy, this is the overarching theme across the three games.  Not that organic vs synthetic nonense that comes out of nowhere (I know it was a part of the games, but never, ever THE main theme).

Uniting and defeating the reapers conventionally would've fit the story:  we came together, united and fortified and defeated those metallics sons of ****es.  So much more satisfying than what's in there now ... even if the EC does work a bit better.