531 réponses à ce sujet

[ExSturminator]

NeferiusX3 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I can sort of answer the question though, just from a technical point of view with a bit of a personal twist.

There's nothing stopping future DLCs from contributing additional EMS score. But there are cert concerns about having DLC require other DLC in order to be achieved (Fallout New Vegas has an issue were some weapons from one DLC cannot be affected by perks from another DLC because that type of dependency isn't allowed), so it'd be challenging to do and I doubt it'd open up additional endings (I might be wrong).

I personally would hesitate as there was already a lot of frustration about EMS requiring some additional type of playthrough in order to get the "ideal" destroy ending. If it were me I think I'd probably hesitate to have EMS scores that require DLC and whatnot to expand upon the ending. I think it's something the fanbase might not appreciate at this juncture haha.

IF I have to buy 6 DLC's totally a hundred bucks, then so be it. I just want my ending I was promised.

If you read my previous reply to you Mr. Schumacher  in regards to monitoring fans' reactions to the possibility, case in point

[10K]

NVM

Modifié par mosesarose, 28 juin 2012 - 02:55 .

[Lwyn]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to reply to stuff on here. It's always fascinating to get an insider's take on these things. Just out of curiousity, do you happen to know if the team put any thought into promoting pre-ending DLC with extensions to the Rejection ending, i.e. using war assets obtained in dlc to boost EMS high enough for a conventional victory ending? I know there aren't plans to do anything else with the ending, I just wondered if they'd considered it, especially considering all the talk of Omega and Leviathan going around. EDIT: Of course, you working on DA and not ME, that was probably a dumb question

I can sort of answer the question though, just from a technical point of view with a bit of a personal twist.

There's nothing stopping future DLCs from contributing additional EMS score. But there are cert concerns about having DLC require other DLC in order to be achieved (Fallout New Vegas has an issue were some weapons from one DLC cannot be affected by perks from another DLC because that type of dependency isn't allowed), so it'd be challenging to do and I doubt it'd open up additional endings (I might be wrong).

I personally would hesitate as there was already a lot of frustration about EMS requiring some additional type of playthrough in order to get the "ideal" destroy ending. If it were me I think I'd probably hesitate to have EMS scores that require DLC and whatnot to expand upon the ending. I think it's something the fanbase might not appreciate at this juncture haha.

The DLC limitations are a fair point, but I'd then ask: Can the refuse ending (and possible variations therein) be included in any future DLC that might affect it? To my knowledge it wasn't very long, was very light on cutscenes and those were done exclusively in-engine. Feasible?

If I sound desperate, it's because I am. I could not and still can't accept the notion that conventional victory is not realistic but synthesis is.

On the second point, I feel that the endings after the EC are complete and adequate enough to warrant putting extras in paid DLC. As a side point if the rumored Leviathan DLC ends up giving me +100 EMS and nothing else, I'll be very disappointed.

Modifié par Lwyn, 28 juin 2012 - 02:53 .

[Grifman1]

richard_rider wrote...

Why can people accept space magic out of left field, but not accept, that maybe if we shoot them, they'll die.

Why do people keep making the same mistake?  Just because I believe the Reapers can't be beat conventionally does not mean I believe/accept Space Magic either.  

Secondly, I don't accept that maybe if we shoot them, they'll die because it was tried by almost every Council fleet at one time or another and every fleet got their ass kicked.  Three Council homeworlds were invaded, Earth, Palaven, and Thessia and in no case was a Reaper fleet stopped from invading.  How much more evidence do you need that "just shooting" won't work?

[Emphyr]

bloodstalker1973 wrote...

I wanted the reject ending, but it makes sense to me that the rejection resulted in losing. it was nice to see that we still p-layed a role in breaking the cycle for some future generation though.

But, I can't help but think if the simplest answer might have been just to destroy the Citadel. Talking to the Catalyst made it seem, to me at least, that the Catalyst was the entity that provided the Reapers with their motivation in the first place.  When you choose the Control ending, for example, Shepard essentially replaces the Catalyst and gives the Reapers a new purpose.

So I kind of wonder what would happen if you remove the Catalyst from the equation entirely. Not via a retcon, but by destroying the Citadel. The Catalyst states that the Citadel is its home, and the fact that the Catalyst predates the first Reaper indicates that at some level, regardless of having assumed/become the collective intellegence and experience of the Reapers, the Catalyst has to exist asd a seperate entity from the Reapers.

So, I wonder if you reject the Catalyst choices, then contact Hackett and get the fleet to focus its fire on the Citdael and destroy it, what would that do? If the Citadel is the home of the Catalyst, which is pretty much now shown to be an AI at its core level that is housed in the Citadel, then destroying the Citadel should effectively destroy the Catalyst. At that point, what happens to the Reapers? Without the Catalyst to provide the compulsion, does their purpose fade? In essence, do the reapers then regain free will, and in that case, perhaps the war ends with the Reapers simply choosing a different path for themselves that doesn't involve the present cycle system?

I guess i'm just wondering how much of the Reaper commitment to harvesting stems directly from the Catalyst influence. The first Reaper was made from an unwilling population after all, and it seems like each successive reaper is also the product of an unwilling race. If Reapers really are the collected intelligence and experience of their respective races, then without the Catalyst influence, I wonder if that unwillingness to be harvested in the first place would have motivated them to discontinue the cycle of harvests purely based on regret over the exticnction of their own races. Would they be free to direct themselves to their own purposes withour either the Catalyst of Shepard to give them a purpose?

Then again, they could just as easily decide to stick to their current purpose, or the Reapers could have had a split in opinion that caused conflict between themselves. I know it's all a moot point, but I would have really liked to see something like this addressed. Even now, I'd like to see what any writer that worked on the story thinks about it. They seemed to want to promote speculation, so I'd be interested to know what they think about this scenario, not from a flaming, condemning nature, but out of simple curiousity. As I said, the endings are the endings, and that's fine with me at this point. I just think it would be interesting to see how destroying the Citadel would have played out according to the view of the writers.

Yes, I know if you wait to long to make a choice, the Citadel gets destroyed and its game over. But I wonder if this was just a case of the writers focused in so much one the endings we have, that they might have just never thought of this. That's not a snarky comment btw, it's a pretty common thing for people to get so caught up in the complexities of their work that they might overlook a more simple solution. I've done it on more occasions than I like to admit myself. It's just human nature and all, and like I said, I'm mostly curious as to what people might think about this scenario more than anything else really.

Bravo! exactly what i had in mind..  I made a comment on page 12 about destroying the citadel. When i posted that i had not read your posting yet.

You put in words what i was thinking also.. Only English is not my language.
Very nice reading! TY
I am very curious about the responces and what other ppl think about it.
I cant reasd any further now as i am (on page 4) it is 04.52 night her now and i really have to get sleep NOW

Take Care

[Psile_01]

Actually, I think that the war could have been won through conventional means if the united forces had been smart about it. They only have one advantage against the reapers, and that is that the reaper's can't restore their forces at all. Instead of risking everything in an all out battle, the united forces should have harassed the reapers, looking for isolated reapers or small groups and focused their attacks on them and pulling back before reinforcements arrive. This why they maximize reaper loss and minimize their own. This also might allow them to temporarily free colonies long enough to evacuate some citizens and relocate them to a safer haven. There seem to be enough livable planets and this would help with repopulation.

Can they beat them in an all out fight? Apparently not, but they were stupid to try.

[Omnifarious Nef]

Grifman1 wrote...

richard_rider wrote...

Why can people accept space magic out of left field, but not accept, that maybe if we shoot them, they'll die.

Why do people keep making the same mistake?  Just because I believe the Reapers can't be beat conventionally does not mean I believe/accept Space Magic either.  

Secondly, I don't accept that maybe if we shoot them, they'll die because it was tried by almost every Council fleet at one time or another and every fleet got their ass kicked.  Three Council homeworlds were invaded, Earth, Palaven, and Thessia and in no case was a Reaper fleet stopped from invading.  How much more evidence do you need that "just shooting" won't work?

I was just thinking... Everyone keeps shooting the reapers... But have you ever once seen them fire nukes at a reaper? I'm sure a 21st century nuke would be like 200 of ours. Why didn't they just nuke the reapers?

[wantedman dan]

The most important question that should be asked on this thread--I don't f*cking care if it's been asked before or not--is "why does our EMS number not affect whether we can defeat the Reapers conventionally?"

It is mind-numbingly absurd that this was not considered by Bioware.

[IanPolaris]

mosesarose wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

However, even if we accept that a non-Crucible victory this cycle might be impossible, HOW you lost and how badly you bleed the Reapers before you did should have mattered for the next cycle,. 

I thought how badly you bleed the reapers did matter for the next cycle? They defeated the reapers , at the very end after the credits it showed that life went on. 

No.  You get the same ending with reject no matter what and apparently the next cycle uses the crucible no matter what.  Your EMS doesn't count for anything.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

wantedman dan wrote...

The most important question that should be asked on this thread--I don't f*cking care if it's been asked before or not--is "why does our EMS number not affect whether we can defeat the Reapers conventionally?"

It is mind-numbingly absurd that this was not considered by Bioware.

A lot of us are asking this question but keep at it.  It's a very important question.

-Polaris

[Omnifarious Nef]

wantedman dan wrote...

The most important question that should be asked on this thread--I don't f*cking care if it's been asked before or not--is "why does our EMS number not affect whether we can defeat the Reapers conventionally?"

It is mind-numbingly absurd that this was not considered by Bioware.

Yeah, you need 3000 EMS to get the best destroy ending. Yet I've got 7200... Sooo, can't I super win then? I've got nearly three times the EMS to win?

[IanPolaris]

NeferiusX3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

The most important question that should be asked on this thread--I don't f*cking care if it's been asked before or not--is "why does our EMS number not affect whether we can defeat the Reapers conventionally?"

It is mind-numbingly absurd that this was not considered by Bioware.

Yeah, you need 3000 EMS to get the best destroy ending. Yet I've got 7200... Sooo, can't I super win then? I've got nearly three times the EMS to win?

Actually you need 3100 EMS to get the absolute best destroy ending, but otherwise I completely agree.

-Polaris

[wantedman dan]

NeferiusX3 wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

The most important question that should be asked on this thread--I don't f*cking care if it's been asked before or not--is "why does our EMS number not affect whether we can defeat the Reapers conventionally?"

It is mind-numbingly absurd that this was not considered by Bioware.

Yeah, you need 3000 EMS to get the best destroy ending. Yet I've got 7200... Sooo, can't I super win then? I've got nearly three times the EMS to win?

And even the "best"--using the term loosely, naturally--still is a betrayal of lore.

[Kileyan]

I posted earlier but it got buried. I have to ask again. What was the point of the EMS scores, multiplayer, and collecting all the cool units, and whatnot throughout the game. Why did those scores exist and reflect upon anything?

The original ending made no use of them, and the extended ending made it pretty clear that no matter how powerfull your alliance of races, that the very second you refuse the 3 colors, the reapers stop sandbagging and *BAM*, its over, the reapers roll over the might of all the races you united, and squash every advanced race.

Why bother with building up all that, all those quests, were those things designed for an entirely different game ending, and left in because they were good time fillers, even if their purpose was totally irrelevant to the ending that made it into the game.

Modifié par Kileyan, 28 juin 2012 - 03:06 .

[wantedman dan]

Kileyan wrote...

I posted earlier but it got buried. I have to ask again. What was the point of the EMS scores, multiplayer, and collecting all the cool units, and whatnot throughout the game. Why did those scores exist and reflect upon anything?

The original ending made no use of them, and the extended ending made it pretty clear that no matter how powerfull your alliance of races, that the very second you refuse the 3 colors, the reapers stop sandbagging and *BAM*, its over, the reapers roll over the might of all the races you united, and squash every advanced race.

Why bother with building up all that, all those quests, were those things designed for an entirely different game ending, and left in because they were good time fillers, even if their purpose was totally irrelevant to the current artistic vision of the time rushed schedule.

To fail in grander fashion, obviously.

[IanPolaris]

Kileyan wrote...

I posted earlier but it got buried. I have to ask again. What was the point of the EMS scores, multiplayer, and collecting all the cool units, and whatnot throughout the game. Why did those scores exist and reflect upon anything?

The original ending made no use of them, and the extended ending made it pretty clear that no matter how powerfull your alliance of races, that the very second you refuse the 3 colors, the reapers stop sandbagging and *BAM*, its over, the reapers roll over the might of all the races you united, and squash every advanced race.

Why bother with building up all that, all those quests, were those things designed for an entirely different game ending, and left in because they were good time fillers, even if their purpose was totally irrelevant to the ending that made it into the game.

There is no point to having good EMS aside from the minimum you need to get the sort of ending you want.  In the case of refusal, your EMS and what you did to get it doesn't matter at all...which means you wasted your time the entire game.

-Polaris

[Bigdoser]

IanPolaris wrote...

Kileyan wrote...

I posted earlier but it got buried. I have to ask again. What was the point of the EMS scores, multiplayer, and collecting all the cool units, and whatnot throughout the game. Why did those scores exist and reflect upon anything?

The original ending made no use of them, and the extended ending made it pretty clear that no matter how powerfull your alliance of races, that the very second you refuse the 3 colors, the reapers stop sandbagging and *BAM*, its over, the reapers roll over the might of all the races you united, and squash every advanced race.

Why bother with building up all that, all those quests, were those things designed for an entirely different game ending, and left in because they were good time fillers, even if their purpose was totally irrelevant to the ending that made it into the game.

There is no point to having good EMS aside from the minimum you need to get the sort of ending you want.  In the case of refusal, your EMS and what you did to get it doesn't matter at all...which means you wasted your time the entire game.

-Polaris

Yup I still have that empty feeling even with the EC the spark I had when playing the me3 games is gone. Worse is that I can't even hit the new game button and bioware is rubbing salt in the wound when I found out the next cycle used the crucible. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 28 juin 2012 - 03:15 .

[Armass81]

Kileyan wrote...

I posted earlier but it got buried. I have to ask again. What was the point of the EMS scores, multiplayer, and collecting all the cool units, and whatnot throughout the game. Why did those scores exist and reflect upon anything?

The original ending made no use of them, and the extended ending made it pretty clear that no matter how powerfull your alliance of races, that the very second you refuse the 3 colors, the reapers stop sandbagging and *BAM*, its over, the reapers roll over the might of all the races you united, and squash every advanced race.

Why bother with building up all that, all those quests, were those things designed for an entirely different game ending, and left in because they were good time fillers, even if their purpose was totally irrelevant to the ending that made it into the game.

They determine how ready the crucible is and how well you punch a hole through the reapers guarding earth and the Citadel. If ems is low the crucible causes huge amounts of collateral damage and its energy cant be used for control or synthesis at all. Not to mention it breaks all the mass relays. A galactic wasteland in other words with low ems.

Modifié par Armass81, 28 juin 2012 - 03:18 .

[wantedman dan]

Bigdoser wrote...

Yup I still have that empty feeling even with the EC the spark I had when playing the me3 games is gone. Worse is that I can't even hit the new game button and bioware is rubbing salt in the wound when I found out the next cycle used the crucible. 

I know that feeling.

After finishing my ultimate playthrough, I realized it would be my last. I calmly stood up, walked over to the Xbox, took out the disc, and put it--and the Mass Effect series--away.

To collect dust.

And it hurt me to do so.

[Omnifarious Nef]

wantedman dan wrote...

Bigdoser wrote...

Yup I still have that empty feeling even with the EC the spark I had when playing the me3 games is gone. Worse is that I can't even hit the new game button and bioware is rubbing salt in the wound when I found out the next cycle used the crucible. 

I know that feeling.

After finishing my ultimate playthrough, I realized it would be my last. I calmly stood up, walked over to the Xbox, took out the disc, and put it--and the Mass Effect series--away.

To collect dust.

And it hurt me to do so.

I know that feeling, I loved no game more than ME2... But, ME3 is on my top ten worst games I have ever played, and not just because of the ending either.

Modifié par NeferiusX3, 28 juin 2012 - 03:20 .

[Moshaaver]

I believe Conventional Victory wouldn't be possible, think about it. The Reapers have the numbers, sure given maybe another 500 years ships could be made that would absolutely devastate the Reapers.... but at the time the most the Fleets could do is hold the Reapers off until the Catalyst was done.

If they could defeat them conventionally they wouldn't need the Catalyst.

[wantedman dan]

Moshaaver wrote...

I believe Conventional Victory wouldn't be possible, think about it. The Reapers have the numbers, sure given maybe another 500 years ships could be made that would absolutely devastate the Reapers.... but at the time the most the Fleets could do is hold the Reapers off until the Catalyst was done.

If they could defeat them conventionally they wouldn't need the Catalyst.

I'll never understand why some people are so content with taking things at face value.

[ZerebusPrime]

So a large part of the Refuse option (ie conventional victory) problem is leaving Shepard standing there instead of, say, having him radio the fleet and say that the Reaper super AI resides in the Citadel. Then, depending on your EMS you might actually be able to blow up the Citadel or directly fry the "Catalyst" by overloading the Crucible. How would that affect the Reapers? Hard to tell. But at least it would have been something.

Modifié par ZerebusPrime, 28 juin 2012 - 03:27 .

[Feixeno]

Moshaaver wrote...

I believe Conventional Victory wouldn't be possible, think about it. The Reapers have the numbers, sure given maybe another 500 years ships could be made that would absolutely devastate the Reapers.... but at the time the most the Fleets could do is hold the Reapers off until the Catalyst was done.

If they could defeat them conventionally they wouldn't need the Catalyst.

The whole game you were telling the Illusive Man ( and the audience ) that control was impossible. It turned out not to be.

Self-determination has been a really big theme of Mass Effect, so yeah it would be thematically consistent to have an ending where high EMS leads to a victory (or even a stalemate) in refusal.

[grey_wind]

There were lots of plot points that the writers could have exploited to make a conventional victory not only possible, but believable as well.
Instead, every single plot point in ME1 and 2 that could have allowed for a conventional victory is undermined, ignored or outright retconned into uselessness.