531 réponses à ce sujet

[XFeroxX]

Spartas Husky wrote...

You forgot. The Aria's fleet. BLue Suns fleet, private military contractors ships. Eclipse, Blood pack. The Rachni. Cerberus deserters Citadel fleets deploy carriers. Which turn out to be very effective as well. batarians, the terminus systems. There are **** load of dreadnaughts sitll unaccounted for. Because reapers didn't attack the terminus systems in force, they jumped from batarian to citadel space. So that is another double size of your current estimates.

Even Doubling the amount of Dreadnoughts to 200, with the Reapers only having 20,000, thats still 1/10 the size, but with the amount of cruisers and the extra forces your talking about then yes itd help tons, but with those massive numbers you'd still expect massive casualties. I forgot to also mention Carriers, which are mentioned often in the game but the Turians have a few but they are an alliance specialty. All told, the fighters and frigates focusing on the destroyers and Oculi, leaving cruisers and dreadnoughts open to concentrate on Sovys and you've got a much less bleak situation unfloding than you might have otherwise

[DirtyBird627]

If the Reapers were really that easy to defeat, one of the other thousands of cycles would have done it by the time of the ME cycle. We really only have information on the Prothean cycle, there's no way of knowing how the war progressed in previous cycles, it's likely that conventional victory had been attempted with forces of similar or greater strength in the distant past and we just don't know about it. Obviously, they were unsuccessful.

In the entire ME series the only full size Reaper we see destroyed is Sovereign, and even that incurred heavy losses despite the favorable position. We can infer that at least a few were lost defending Earth but it wasn't confirmed in game.

[prizm123]

refusal ending pretty much proves that the answer is a definitive no

[Oransel]

prizm123 wrote...

refusal ending pretty much proves that the answer is a definitive no

I dismiss that claim.

[Dilandau3000]

I estimate you would need about 1 billion EMS to win conventionally.

This was estimated using the statistical method of pulling numbers out of my arse.

[Oransel]

Yes. I would go with it. On high EMS, every known character (Shepard, Liara, Garrus, Hackett) dies in this war. 95% of fleet is destroyed, Earth and Thessia are permanantly scorched. Yet, Reapers are gone for good and the remaining people have hope. That was the option I would like to see and it's the most realistic.

[Spartas Husky]

XFeroxX wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

You forgot. The Aria's fleet. BLue Suns fleet, private military contractors ships. Eclipse, Blood pack. The Rachni. Cerberus deserters Citadel fleets deploy carriers. Which turn out to be very effective as well. batarians, the terminus systems. There are **** load of dreadnaughts sitll unaccounted for. Because reapers didn't attack the terminus systems in force, they jumped from batarian to citadel space. So that is another double size of your current estimates.

Even Doubling the amount of Dreadnoughts to 200, with the Reapers only having 20,000, thats still 1/10 the size, but with the amount of cruisers and the extra forces your talking about then yes itd help tons, but with those massive numbers you'd still expect massive casualties. I forgot to also mention Carriers, which are mentioned often in the game but the Turians have a few but they are an alliance specialty. All told, the fighters and frigates focusing on the destroyers and Oculi, leaving cruisers and dreadnoughts open to concentrate on Sovys and you've got a much less bleak situation unfloding than you might have otherwise

Actually some of your calculation is wrong. And thus way off. As we've seen with the protheans. Not every cycle yields a reaper. EDI could only surmise as to why some species do not yield them, or maybe they aren't advanced enough, enough numbers?... not sure given protheans wide spread. But Not all cycles yield a reaper, and with casualties from cycles. It means unless we know the rate of rejection to reaper form. We can only surmise
A. their number stagnate
B. Their numbers might actually dwindle.

GIven the view of the  planet earth, I'd say is the 2nd. it also adds weight to the reapers plans. Attack overwhelmingly from a single point and spread out picking out pockets of resistance. If your force is so overwhelimg, tactically separating your enemies is more time consuming and resourcefully wasteful than amazing them all in one place. Meaning the reapers do not want an open confrontation. For what reasons I can only imagine, but if I had to guess is because their best tool, aside from their superior technology is catching their enemy offguard. If not they stand to loose alot more than gained.

Given by the Reapers being stalled in palaven itself by a combined front, and reapers not simply overwheling positions in space like they do in ground battles, leads me to believe the core foundation of your guess work is way off. If they had as many numbers in space as they do on the ground they would simply work as husks, overwhelimg and never stopping. However when holding their ground against a similar force +/- they actually begin to loose numbers. And again given the earth cutscene, they aren't darkening the sky of earth by a longshot, meaning there are nowhere near even a thousand of them at earth. And given that they all concentrated on it... means their numbers are incredibly small; which also leads me to surmise that the rate of failure of turning civilizations into a soverign class reaper is ridiculously high.

[movieguyabw]

Dilandau3000 wrote...

I estimate you would need about 1 billion EMS to win conventionally.

This was estimated using the statistical method of pulling numbers out of my arse.

You'd think with an EMS of 1 Billion you'd have an unstoppable enough fleet to just mow the Reapers down, without trying. 

[LaughingDragon]

Allan,

As a fan of all 3 games, I was personally disappointed that conventional battle was not possible.

Across 3 games, the ME team made me feel as though Shepard could unite all the races in the galaxy, to defeat the reapers.

The combined full-strength fleets of the Turians, Geth, Salarians, Asari, Alliance, Batarians, mercenary groups, cerberus, rachni etc could very plausibly overwhelm and "zerg" the reapers to death. That's an incredibly vast number of warships all focus-firing rather large targets (reaper capital ships) - plus add to that genophage cured Krogan ground troops in the tens of millions united etc.

Plus Shepard got the reaper ship specs from the collector base at the end of ME2 didn't he? So they would have had some useful intel to prepare for the invasion.

[Mike_Neel]

I like that the refusal we don't need no stinkin' catalyst option results in the reapers winning this war. It ends the game on the bitter sweet note and really builds on the bigger than you can comprehend theme. That said I probably would have expanded it a bit more.

With a low EMS it would show a [so many years later] and a planet with lights and obvious advanced habitation. Harbinger/sovereign type voice would be narrating about how the cycle always goes on. He talks about how it's and endless event and that the life forms resent and hate them and fight them but it is the only way. Then show Reapers descending down on the planet. 

With a high EMS it would show the same planet with the same [so many years later] title card. But this time a normal voice would narrate how they found Liara's beacons. They built the Crucible and it worked, maybe even show it orbiting the planet. So that way you still feel like all your effort was for something and that you may have not won the battle but you helped win the war, and that's what counted.

Modifié par Mike_Neel, 28 juin 2012 - 07:15 .

[sadako]

Nice insight to what goes on behind the scenes, Allen.
Frankly the EC wasn't that great, but it was acceptable. At least I feel good enough now to replay the game on my second run now. After the original ending, I was so disappointed that I just uninstalled origin and ME franchise off my hard disk.

I like the refuse ending. It's not a good end, but it's a GOOD BAD END. Frankly, if I was put in such position, I would refuse too, just by principle of getting 3 options from something I've never seen before and taking everything it says at face value.

Having the Harbinger voice take over at the end was really a nice touch. I'd pat anyone in the dev team at the back for suggesting it.

Too bad Bioware made the reapers into creatures without respect towards sanctity of life rather than being outright evil. Given the previous iterations, I really wanted a showdown with Harbinger.

EC, wasn't great, but it's an acceptable ending that doesn't make me feel like I got trolled at the ending with 3 coloured explosions. haha.

[Wolf]

Guys, I have a question.

How do you think the scales would be tipped if we had a rogue Reaper as a War Asset?

[Oransel]

Gaiden96 wrote...

Guys, I have a question.

How do you think the scales would be tipped if we had a rogue Reaper as a War Asset?

That would change everything, tbh. If he just gave us his technologies, alone, that's enough to beat them.

[brskeen]

The codex mentions that a Reaper's barriers can withstand fire from two dreadnoughts, will show signs of strain from three and will collapse under bombardment from four. Presumably, with a high enough volume of fire it should be at least THEORETICALLY possible to do it. With the massive numbers of ships of varied classes on the allied side, it would just require them to pick their targets and concentrate their attacks.
It's all beside the point anyway! With the reapers in control of the Citadel, they could close the relays and stave off attack. Sovereign did just that in ME1, when Saren turned over control to him. It took Shepherd to re-open the relays and allow the Alliance fleet to join the fight.

Modifié par brskeen, 28 juin 2012 - 07:46 .

[Spartas Husky]

Which begs the question, wth is our citadel battle. Our fight to citadel tower.?

[Oransel]

Codex is in favor of conventional victory.

[Creighton72]

Dessalines wrote...

Creighton72 wrote...

Dessalines wrote...

To think this is to think you know better than every character that was designed in the game to tell you what is happening in the game.... Think about that for a moment. It is like thinking that Krogan's don't need Mordin to do a cure, they just need to believe in good thoughts.
Conventional means is not even possible. It would make the entire threat of the Reapers pathetic. Basically, what you are saying that throughout time that no civlization had enough fire power, or enough unified diveristy to destroy the Reapers until our time. It is silly.

The character does not tell you what is happening in the game the author does. Reapers are very two dimensional enemies that are plot armored. Science is largly thrown out the window along with any basic military tactics. Your just told the Reapers are powerful and can't be beaten and to take it on face value. But they don't tell you why. You have seen reapers in the final battle killed or heavily damaged with conventional weapons. The final way you beat them is not even explained you just stop them with one of three colored lights. Again in a universe where space magic exists anything is possible. So conventional means is not out of the relm of belief. I mean if you believe in any of this stuff, then how can you not believe anything is possible. Realisim went out the door with Element Zero.

The entire world is constructed by the authors.  The conflict is constructed by the authors. Everything is constructed by the authors. It is not plot armored, they are part of the constructed plot. Shepard is part of the constructed plot.  EDI, Garrus, Javilk, Hackett, and when you try to fight them one on one, you are defeated.  Just because you are a real person that plays a character in game, you still must abide by the constructed reality that the author created.  Reality went out the window with Element Zero? Reality went out the window with the start of the game.  This about constructed realism. It is science fiction. The whole thing is not real.
No, no, ...conventional victory is only possible in fanfiction.

Element Zero is the start of the game, read the opening. The game is not a constructed reality, it's a work of fiction. You agree that reality has nothing to do with it then call it reality. What you seem to miss is that the Reapers are plot armored. Why are the Reapers unbeatable? Because the author simply makes them that way. That's plot armoring. He gives you no facts about why they are unbeatable, it's just stated and nothing works against them, unless they need something to work against them. The Crucible, what is that? Is it explained? No, it's simply a plot device with a built in push button victory. The magic science of the game is not exactly set in stone, it wavers a lot. Now you also seem to miss the fact that the Author can beat the reapers if he wants to. Which is exactly what I stated you agreed with this and then disagreed with me. So you don't believe that when I said the author can beat the reapers, you think he can but he can't? You might want to read the post of mine that he was responding to.

So like I said given the fact that this is a story and work of fiction, anything is possible if the author wants it to be. Including beating the reapers. To disagree with that is insane, that poster disagreed with it, you agreed with it but then tried to find a way to disagree with it. Which makes no sense.

It amazes me that people miss the simple fact that anything is possible in a story it the author wants it to be. Thus anything is possible in a given story. Are the reapers beatable? Yes they lost, so clearly they are beatable. In a science fiction universe anything is possible including a science fiction victory, to call anything unbelievable is pointless. Nothing is actually believable to begin with. So can you have an unbelievable victory in an unbelievable universe? Yes?

Modifié par Creighton72, 28 juin 2012 - 08:32 .

[Miezul_Carpatin]

Those war assets we don't see in the final battle should pull their ass and at least win the war conventionally.

[ElementL09]

On Earth, maybe, in the rest of the universe, not certain.

[IanPolaris]

XFeroxX wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

You forgot. The Aria's fleet. BLue Suns fleet, private military contractors ships. Eclipse, Blood pack. The Rachni. Cerberus deserters Citadel fleets deploy carriers. Which turn out to be very effective as well. batarians, the terminus systems. There are **** load of dreadnaughts sitll unaccounted for. Because reapers didn't attack the terminus systems in force, they jumped from batarian to citadel space. So that is another double size of your current estimates.

Even Doubling the amount of Dreadnoughts to 200, with the Reapers only having 20,000, thats still 1/10 the size, but with the amount of cruisers and the extra forces your talking about then yes itd help tons, but with those massive numbers you'd still expect massive casualties. I forgot to also mention Carriers, which are mentioned often in the game but the Turians have a few but they are an alliance specialty. All told, the fighters and frigates focusing on the destroyers and Oculi, leaving cruisers and dreadnoughts open to concentrate on Sovys and you've got a much less bleak situation unfloding than you might have otherwise

I don't buy that the Reapers have 20,000 Sovereign class ships though.  Even if I accept 1billion years, the 20,000 figure assumes that the Reapers find one suitable race to make a Sovereign class from, and that there have been no casualties during this time.  I think both propositions are highly dubvious.  For example, during the Prothean cycle, we know that the Prothean Empire had a primary race and many client races, but we KNOW that none of them were suitable (first posited by EDI in ME2 and later indirectly confirmed by Javik who wasn't familiar with Reaperfication despite his long experience fighting the Reapers in his cycle).

Not only that, but the Reapers don't behave like they have 20,000 Sovereign class Ships.  If they did, there would be no reason not to Zerg Rush the Citadel, Earth, Palaven, and then Thessia.  Get rid of those targets fast with overwhelming firepower and numbers and the galaxy is yours.  Didn't happen that way.  Why?  Apparently lack of numbers.  The Reapers are extremely sensitive to taking losses because even losing a Destroyer means losing an entire race and all it's knowledge.  If you have the overwhelming numbers you suggest, they should have Zerg rushed.  They didn't.

Conclusion:  They don't have to the numbers to avoid taking (for them) unacceptable losses.

Futhermore if you take a look at the graphics, you can get an idea of how many Reapers are about.  For example, when the Reapers concentrated in the Sol system to keep us away from the citadel, it's pretty easy to calculate out with just a couple of easy (symetrical) assumptions the total number of Sovereign class ships in the Sol system.  It works out to be about 600.  Since this is where the Reapers are strongest, 600 has to represent a significant chunk of their fleet.  There are other posts and threads that go into a lot more detail but the upshot is this:

The Reaper Capital Fleet (Sovereign class) probably numbers from 4-6 thousand or so.  That's still a huge number to defeat, but not impossible.

-Polaris 

[sadako]

Creighton72 wrote...

Element Zero is the start of the game, read the opening. The game is not a constructed reality, it's a work of fiction. You agree that reality has nothing to do with it then call it reality. What you seem to miss is that the Reapers are plot armored. Why are the Reapers unbeatable? Because the author simply makes them that way. That's plot armoring. He gives you no facts about why they are unbeatable, it's just stated and nothing works against them, unless they need something to work against them. The Crucible, what is that? Is it explained? No, it's simply a plot device with a built in push button victory. The magic science of the game is not exactly set in stone, it wavers a lot. Now you also seem to miss the fact that the Author can beat the reapers if he wants to. Which is exactly what I stated you agreed with this and then disagreed with me. So you don't believe that when I said the author can beat the reapers, you think he can but he can't? You might want to read the post of mine that he was responding to.

So like I said given the fact that this is a story and work of fiction, anything is possible if the author wants it to be. Including beating the reapers. To disagree with that is insane, that poster disagreed with it, you agreed with it but then tried to find a way to disagree with it. Which makes no sense.

It amazes me that people miss the simple fact that anything is possible in a story it the author wants it to be. Thus anything is possible in a given story. Are the reapers beatable? Yes they lost, so clearly they are beatable. In a science fiction universe anything is possible including a science fiction victory, to call anything unbelievable is pointless. Nothing is actually believable to begin with. So can you have an unbelievable victory in an unbelievable universe? Yes?

Well put. Bravo!

Modifié par sadako, 28 juin 2012 - 08:45 .

[Oransel]

Also, check this thread social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12830900/1

Modifié par Oransel, 28 juin 2012 - 08:47 .

[richard_rider]

Creighton72 wrote...

Element Zero is the start of the game, read the opening. The game is not a constructed reality, it's a work of fiction. You agree that reality has nothing to do with it then call it reality. What you seem to miss is that the Reapers are plot armored. Why are the Reapers unbeatable? Because the author simply makes them that way. That's plot armoring. He gives you no facts about why they are unbeatable, it's just stated and nothing works against them, unless they need something to work against them. The Crucible, what is that? Is it explained? No, it's simply a plot device with a built in push button victory. The magic science of the game is not exactly set in stone, it wavers a lot. Now you also seem to miss the fact that the Author can beat the reapers if he wants to. Which is exactly what I stated you agreed with this and then disagreed with me. So you don't believe that when I said the author can beat the reapers, you think he can but he can't? You might want to read the post of mine that he was responding to.

So like I said given the fact that this is a story and work of fiction, anything is possible if the author wants it to be. Including beating the reapers. To disagree with that is insane, that poster disagreed with it, you agreed with it but then tried to find a way to disagree with it. Which makes no sense.

It amazes me that people miss the simple fact that anything is possible in a story it the author wants it to be. Thus anything is possible in a given story. Are the reapers beatable? Yes they lost, so clearly they are beatable. In a science fiction universe anything is possible including a science fiction victory, to call anything unbelievable is pointless. Nothing is actually believable to begin with. So can you have an unbelievable victory in an unbelievable universe? Yes?

*starts slow clap*

[iAFKinMassEffect3]

Yes
Bioware were just to lazy to even try it, so we got this.....abomination.

[NM_Che56]

Creighton72 wrote...

Element Zero is the start of the game, read the opening. The game is not a constructed reality, it's a work of fiction. You agree that reality has nothing to do with it then call it reality. What you seem to miss is that the Reapers are plot armored. Why are the Reapers unbeatable? Because the author simply makes them that way. That's plot armoring. He gives you no facts about why they are unbeatable, it's just stated and nothing works against them, unless they need something to work against them. The Crucible, what is that? Is it explained? No, it's simply a plot device with a built in push button victory. The magic science of the game is not exactly set in stone, it wavers a lot. Now you also seem to miss the fact that the Author can beat the reapers if he wants to. Which is exactly what I stated you agreed with this and then disagreed with me. So you don't believe that when I said the author can beat the reapers, you think he can but he can't? You might want to read the post of mine that he was responding to.

So like I said given the fact that this is a story and work of fiction, anything is possible if the author wants it to be. Including beating the reapers. To disagree with that is insane, that poster disagreed with it, you agreed with it but then tried to find a way to disagree with it. Which makes no sense.

It amazes me that people miss the simple fact that anything is possible in a story it the author wants it to be. Thus anything is possible in a given story. Are the reapers beatable? Yes they lost, so clearly they are beatable. In a science fiction universe anything is possible including a science fiction victory, to call anything unbelievable is pointless. Nothing is actually believable to begin with. So can you have an unbelievable victory in an unbelievable universe? Yes?

Part of the "plot armor" is that reapers cannot be beaten conventionally .  If the Leviathan of Dis DLC allows a reaper as a war asset, then I would say that's "unconventional".  Getting Leviathan on your side would be like sending US Special Ops forces into hostile territory and convincing the indigenous population to combat hostile forces (an unconventional tactic).