531 réponses à ce sujet

[7he Island Head]

7he Island Head wrote...

7he Island Head wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe a more pertinent question is:

Is it acceptable that conventional victory is not obtainable?

It's one thing to want to be able to win conventionally. But is the disappointment with it not being possible fed more from the fact that someone wanted it to happen but didn't, or because it realistically doesn't make sense?


I was on the record a couple months ago stating that I agreed with the notion many posters had that refusing the reapers should have been a viable option, but I was also clear in stating that I'd have it result in failure because in my opinion it makes it a more interesting choice. So I'm just asking this to get a better understanding from those that are disappointed.

I think the disappointment comes from two things. Firstly the whole story revolving around a space magic generator (the Crucible) that no one knows anything about or what it does. Secondly all the missions are about building a convention army or acquiring war assests to fight the reapers conventionaly. It seems like all of Shep's efforts were a waste of time, because it comes down to him chosing options only present to him in the last few minutes of the game, involving a mysterious machine that you only help build indirectly.

I feel like the plot got pulled into two different directions, a noncoventional and conventional war effort, this made the ending unsatisfying for the ending is based in the nonconventional war effort, while the journey is based on the conventional war effort. You don't even see the Crucible getting built, and the noncoventional war effort which provides the ending that player has no interaction with at all. 

[Zelto]

Personnally from ME 1 and even 2, I would say its perfectly possable as even though the reapers are seen to be massivly powerful vigel states it takes them 100's of years to finish the harvest. That to me suggests that their numbers were significantly inflated come ME 3. They attack every homeworld simutaneously and it seems pretty much everywhere else. They finished in months what suppositly took centuries previously. So I can only conclude the writers changed their numbers purely to make it impossable (or nearly so).

[NM_Che56]

vivaladricas wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

vivaladricas wrote...

Wow more writers should write an unbeatable enemy, it makes it so much more dramatic. *rolls eyes*

Do that might as well leave the paper blank and never write the story to begin with. 

Unbeatable?  You are given three options to beat the Reapers.

"Can't beat them the exact way I want to" is not the same thing as "unbeatable."  

Still got issues with it.  They ALLOW you to beat them for some reason *writer*  makes no sense and is forced like a rape.  From my view.  Thats a holow BS victory and is an off switch (again from my view)  could have been more creative or stretched it over another game, things dont have to be in 3's in story's.  

The way I want to beat em is impossible, I want them in the marvel universe where they get treated like insignificant nothings to some of marvel's stronger characters.   This ME Universe got destoyed for the most part cause its all the damn place now.  

Allow? I think of it more like this:

The fact that you made it this far is a total mind f*** for the Catalyst. 

If all it took were the Avengers to swoop in and mop up, then...why are we here again? 

[Alushadow]

if you wanna know IT is POSSIBLE they just didnt add it
they even altered it so its clear as day in the EC
if you watch the cut scene u can see they are killing 2-3 reapers in the battle
and im pretty sure its just lunacy that you cannot fight them with a full 7k+ asset of galactic assets
just as same as i don't believe the part on thessia were you lose cuz a small gunship shots a rocker somewhere in the building
and that little bastard takes the vi
more then that if anyone here red the novels and the comic the ending DOESNT makes any sense
since if you understand the comics it imply that the reaper placed traps around the galaxy to detect intelligent life forms unlike it was assumed in ME1 or 2 that sovereign is semi dormant and runs life scans over 50k years
the comic and novels imply that the reapers are simply a life form that at every cycle they reproduce via absorbing the race with the most potential in the galaxy the rest either get decimated or get altered to serve as slaves and as a fail safe in case anything goes wrong
and the reapers have there own language the weird sounds you hear most the time when facing reapers is them talking
but all and all its a yes you were supposed to be able to fight the reapers with enough force
yes with a lot of death and such but yes i would say there should be that option

[Oransel]

What I wanted to see in the first place: Shepard and Anderson up there near control panel, sharing last words, Citadel opens, Crucible fires - what happens next is up to your EMS. Sure it would still be Deus Ex Machina (Crucible) and weak writing, but that was alright way to finish the series with noone complaining.

Starkid violated the lore, literally raped the plot to the point where now everything is possible. Synthesis is exactly as impossible as conventional victory, yet it happens.

[blacqout]

Master Che wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Master Che wrote...

If conventional means was all it took, then why are we here? Why didn't one of the millions of cycles before get the job done? The Protheans were more advanced and they built their civilization on the ruins of others.

I just think that a conventional victory in an unconventional war is a stretch, even for fiction.

Javik mentions that his cycle's weakness was that they all adhered to the same doctrine and were unable to adapt. While the the Protheans' imperialism proved to be a downfall, the democratic nature and sheer diversity of Shepard's cycle seemed to give it an edge.

That's not the same as saying that a "conventional" means of war will defeat the Reapers, though. 

Maybe their ways and doctrines leaned more in the way of conventional and our ways mean that we 'think outside of the box and come up with crazy sH*+"?

Yeah, i don't know. I just think that this cycle was meant to seem special, and that's one of the reasons.

Also, don't forget that the Reapers were prevented from jumping to the Galaxy through the Citadel and accessing all the galactic records. They had the element of surprise kind of taken away, which again gives this cycle an edge that the Protheans lacked. 

And the two year delay in the invasion, in which the cycle could study Reaper tech and derive some very real improvements to weaponry and the like. 

This cycle had a lot of advantages that the previous ones probably lacked.

[Jagri]

Not impossible it is however improbable. That said why risk it when the enemy leader presents himself and offers the proverbial "easy button"?

Kids these days love easy buttons.

[VII Revenant]

LazyTechGuy wrote...

mad825 wrote...

Even Javik admitted it was possible so why not?

What race was he a part of again?

Because they spread the fight out over centuries and still got owned.

One thing to consider, however, is how many Reapers they may have destroyed before their cycle came to a close and how many viable races there were for the creation of new Reapers; based on Mass Effect 2, Reapers are built as an avatar of a conquered race, preserving that species. We don't know how many species comprised the Prothean empire or the exact circumstance of the client race's downfall. The Reaper population may not be sustainable due to the large number of specimens required to assemble a new Reaper, the sheer amount of potential specimens used to create infantry and shock troops, the efficacy of previous cycles and the number of developed races at the cycle's start, and the biological viability of each individual race in the Reaper manufacturing process.

[Warrior Craess]

Calibrations Expert wrote...

Sure, 9000 EMS might beat the Reapers, but it's impossible to get 9000 EMS. There is not enough power in the known galaxy.

actually only about 15 promotes, and 100 galaxy readiness I have well over 8K EMS... so yes 9K is very possible, if you play MP. 

Doesn't change the fact that this cycle pissed away any opportunity to wage and win a conventional war. 

[FellishBeast]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe a more pertinent question is:

Is it acceptable that conventional victory is not obtainable?

It's one thing to want to be able to win conventionally. But is the disappointment with it not being possible fed more from the fact that someone wanted it to happen but didn't, or because it realistically doesn't make sense?


I was on the record a couple months ago stating that I agreed with the notion many posters had that refusing the reapers should have been a viable option, but I was also clear in stating that I'd have it result in failure because in my opinion it makes it a more interesting choice. So I'm just asking this to get a better understanding from those that are disappointed.

The first two games give us hope that we can win conventionally. ME3 acts as if that never happened.

[samb]

Oransel wrote...

There is no proof about this being impossible except for several people thinking it is impossible. That is the problem for me. After ME1, yeah I'd say it is impossible. After ME2, same. But after all I have seen in ME3 with Reapers being incredibly weak... Yes, they can be just shot.

The people telling you it is impossible are the head COs of their respective military. People who have access to things like how many of our forces are dying a day, what ordnance they have, how many, if it is effective etc.  You have purposely ignored all the facts and just say: "No" and "prove it". I have done this debate with you in another thread. 
This thread is just troll bait. 

[Armass81]

The EMS is build for 2 things:

1. to make the crucible more stable so it doesnt cause much collateral damage when you use it
2. Enough forces to punch through to the earth and try to liberate it, or at least hold the enemy off as long as possible while you make the crucible work.

Earth doesnt count all the reapers. When you look at the galaxy map when you unlock sol you can see theyre all over the galaxy... And you see how few ships are left to escape earth at the end... how are you going to deal with that?

But no, lets just violate the lore and summon some bs reason how we can win conventionally now... Its gonna take a lot more than couple of thousand thanix cannons...

Modifié par Armass81, 27 juin 2012 - 08:00 .

[Zix13]

I believe it is, but you'd be looking at galactic grimdark for a few hundred years of geurilla tactics. Reapers can't replenish their numbers, allied forces can. This assumes that someone in the galaxy has a grasp of appropriate tactics for the situation.... unlike everyone involved in Priority: Earth.

[SwitchN7]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe a more pertinent question is:

Is it acceptable that conventional victory is not obtainable?

It's one thing to want to be able to win conventionally. But is the disappointment with it not being possible fed more from the fact that someone wanted it to happen but didn't, or because it realistically doesn't make sense?


I was on the record a couple months ago stating that I agreed with the notion many posters had that refusing the reapers should have been a viable option, but I was also clear in stating that I'd have it result in failure because in my opinion it makes it a more interesting choice. So I'm just asking this to get a better understanding from those that are disappointed.

Turians believe that at the end of a war even if one turian remains alive the fight was worth it.Humans try to save everyone...

[Spartas Husky]

Apparently the next cycle won...wtf I didn't die so the next cycle could live, I fought to get with my friends!!!.

[iiNOMADii]

It'll all come down to one strategic objective: killing Reapers. This is why I think EMS is ineffective as a general 'Us vs Reapers' score, since many of the assets, infantry and such, are not able by themselves to kill Reapers, but only the husks and such of their own kind.

Dreadnoughts, Thanix missles, and the like are the tools which can kill Reapers, and as such, will be how a conventional victory would be possible or not. Seems like the resources available at the current cycle are FAR too short supply to take down the Reaper forces at just one planet (albeit a fortified one) than ALL the other ones in the galaxy.

Yes, the ground forces of Earth and all that can hold out against the Reapers for a while, but again, they are basically fighting the husks of their own kind and not actually shooting Reapers with small arms (good luck with that).

So yes, I think it would technically be possible, but practically for this cycle, not much of a chance. A cycle would need lots of time and most importantly, resources to fund and build such 'superweapons'.

[NM_Che56]

blacqout wrote...

Master Che wrote...

blacqout wrote...

Master Che wrote...

If conventional means was all it took, then why are we here? Why didn't one of the millions of cycles before get the job done? The Protheans were more advanced and they built their civilization on the ruins of others.

I just think that a conventional victory in an unconventional war is a stretch, even for fiction.

Javik mentions that his cycle's weakness was that they all adhered to the same doctrine and were unable to adapt. While the the Protheans' imperialism proved to be a downfall, the democratic nature and sheer diversity of Shepard's cycle seemed to give it an edge.

That's not the same as saying that a "conventional" means of war will defeat the Reapers, though. 

Maybe their ways and doctrines leaned more in the way of conventional and our ways mean that we 'think outside of the box and come up with crazy sH*+"?

Yeah, i don't know. I just think that this cycle was meant to seem special, and that's one of the reasons.

Also, don't forget that the Reapers were prevented from jumping to the Galaxy through the Citadel and accessing all the galactic records. They had the element of surprise kind of taken away, which again gives this cycle an edge that the Protheans lacked. 

And the two year delay in the invasion, in which the cycle could study Reaper tech and derive some very real improvements to weaponry and the like. 

This cycle had a lot of advantages that the previous ones probably lacked.

Agreed.  Each cycle learns more and more and gets a leg up....BUT, when they are harvested, the Reapers have got to glean a little something from the harvested.  Enough to help them anticipate the next move.

The other thing people seem to forget is that while the Conduit (Citadel) and Catalyst (Star Brat) are Reaper voodoo, the Crucible seems to be the product of each cycle's ingenuity in trying to discover a way to defeat the reapers. 

The Crucible is kinda like a hacking tool, if you will.  It allows you to exploit.  Almost like hotwiring a car.  You know?

[CaliGuy033]

samb wrote...

Oransel wrote...

There is no proof about this being impossible except for several people thinking it is impossible. That is the problem for me. After ME1, yeah I'd say it is impossible. After ME2, same. But after all I have seen in ME3 with Reapers being incredibly weak... Yes, they can be just shot.

The people telling you it is impossible are the head COs of their respective military. People who have access to things like how many of our forces are dying a day, what ordnance they have, how many, if it is effective etc.  You have purposely ignored all the facts and just say: "No" and "prove it". I have done this debate with you in another thread. 
This thread is just troll bait. 

This--and more importantly, the people truly "telling" you it's impossible are the writers who created this fictional story.  Whatever they say, goes.  That is the way stories work.

BTW, I'm getting a kick out of people claiming that it's clearly possible to defeat ALL of the Repears conventionally simply because some Reapers were defeated conventionally.   That's like saying it's possible for me to beat LeBron James in a game of 1-on-1 because I hit one shot over him.

[Jagri]

Zix13 wrote...

I believe it is, but you'd be looking at galactic grimdark for a few hundred years of geurilla tactics. Reapers can't replenish their numbers, allied forces can. This assumes that someone in the galaxy has a grasp of appropriate tactics for the situation.... unlike everyone involved in Priority: Earth.

Silence! When has long grueling guerrilla warfare ever let a inferior force defeat a superior force... Oh wait... But still nothing beats space magic!

Modifié par Jagri, 27 juin 2012 - 08:02 .

[NM_Che56]

Jagri wrote...

Not impossible it is however improbable. That said why risk it when the enemy leader presents himself and offers the proverbial "easy button"?

Kids these days love easy buttons.

to get the "easy button" you have to amass war assets and get the whole damned galaxy on your side to build the crucible. 

[Omeganian]

Well, it is entirely possible that many reapers are made every cycle, that their total number is in the millions (after all, there is a lot of in-universe speculation about them)... and that the numbers actually invading are kept low in order to avoid driving everyone into suicide. In other words, the answer is "no", but the Reapers don't want you to think that.

[Huitzil]

The two previous games were situations where everyone and everything told us conventional victory was not possible, and we went and punched our way through them anyway. Commander Shepard does the impossible and sees the invisible.

Mass Effect was never a tragedy, trying to make it into one in the last 10 minutes is idiotic.

[mad825]

LazyTechGuy wrote...

mad825 wrote...

Even Javik admitted it was possible so why not?

What race was he a part of again?

Because they spread the fight out over centuries and still got owned.

They got owned more than just by the reapers. They had their creation turn against them which effectively weakened them before the reapers struck. They fort against their creation and the reapers for two centuries and all they might have needed to win was diversity. That's pretty ****ing impressive in my books.

[bloodstalker1973]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Maybe a more pertinent question is:

Is it acceptable that conventional victory is not obtainable?

It's one thing to want to be able to win conventionally. But is the disappointment with it not being possible fed more from the fact that someone wanted it to happen but didn't, or because it realistically doesn't make sense?


I was on the record a couple months ago stating that I agreed with the notion many posters had that refusing the reapers should have been a viable option, but I was also clear in stating that I'd have it result in failure because in my opinion it makes it a more interesting choice. So I'm just asking this to get a better understanding from those that are disappointed.

I wanted the reject ending, but it makes sense to me that the rejection resulted in losing. it was nice to see that we still p-layed a role in breaking the cycle for some future generation though.

But, I can't help but think if the simplest answer might have been just to destroy the Citadel. Talking to the Catalyst made it seem, to me at least, that the Catalyst was the entity that provided the Reapers with their motivation in the first place.  When you choose the Control ending, for example, Shepard essentially replaces the Catalyst and gives the Reapers a new purpose.

So I kind of wonder what would happen if you remove the Catalyst from the equation entirely. Not via a retcon, but by destroying the Citadel. The Catalyst states that the Citadel is its home, and the fact that the Catalyst predates the first Reaper indicates that at some level, regardless of having assumed/become the collective intellegence and experience of the Reapers, the Catalyst has to exist asd a seperate entity from the Reapers.

So, I wonder if you reject the Catalyst choices, then contact Hackett and get the fleet to focus its fire on the Citdael and destroy it, what would that do? If the Citadel is the home of the Catalyst, which is pretty much now shown to be an AI at its core level that is housed in the Citadel, then destroying the Citadel should effectively destroy the Catalyst. At that point, what happens to the Reapers? Without the Catalyst to provide the compulsion, does their purpose fade? In essence, do the reapers then regain free will, and in that case, perhaps the war ends with the Reapers simply choosing a different path for themselves that doesn't involve the present cycle system?

I guess i'm just wondering how much of the Reaper commitment to harvesting stems directly from the Catalyst influence. The first Reaper was made from an unwilling population after all, and it seems like each successive reaper is also the product of an unwilling race. If Reapers really are the collected intelligence and experience of their respective races, then without the Catalyst influence, I wonder if that unwillingness to be harvested in the first place would have motivated them to discontinue the cycle of harvests purely based on regret over the exticnction of their own races. Would they be free to direct themselves to their own purposes withour either the Catalyst of Shepard to give them a purpose?

Then again, they could just as easily decide to stick to their current purpose, or the Reapers could have had a split in opinion that caused conflict between themselves. I know it's all a moot point, but I would have really liked to see something like this addressed. Even now, I'd like to see what any writer that worked on the story thinks about it. They seemed to want to promote speculation, so I'd be interested to know what they think about this scenario, not from a flaming, condemning nature, but out of simple curiousity. As I said, the endings are the endings, and that's fine with me at this point. I just think it would be interesting to see how destroying the Citadel would have played out according to the view of the writers.

Yes, I know if you wait to long to make a choice, the Citadel gets destroyed and its game over. But I wonder if this was just a case of the writers focused in so much one the endings we have, that they might have just never thought of this. That's not a snarky comment btw, it's a pretty common thing for people to get so caught up in the complexities of their work that they might overlook a more simple solution. I've done it on more occasions than I like to admit myself. It's just human nature and all, and like I said, I'm mostly curious as to what people might think about this scenario more than anything else really.