505 réponses à ce sujet

[Funkdrspot]

wantedman dan wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Damn man people are still raging over this? Can the fringe group just give it up and stop trying to force Bioware into a conventional victory with a Disney ending?

Refusal. I've never seen a more coward group. Refusal b/c you're too scared to get blood on your hands so the whole cycle pays. So self-righteous and selfish in your morality that you literally sacrifice +9 races, +100 billion people on principle.

I'm going to bet that these people would only do it in a game. If they had to deal with the reality of watching their wife, children and love ones dying due to their inaction, they'd change their self-righteous tone in a heartbeat.

I'm willing to bet you don't have many principles, do you?

Are army generals not principled? yet they have to send soldiers to die.

I'm extremely principled but unlike you, i can understand when my principles compromise more than just my dignity. I can look at the bigger picture. I'm non-violent but if my wife and daughter are about to be raped and slaughtered before my eyes, should i act or 'stay principled'? 

It's WWII
I'm America
You're France

[Funkdrspot]

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Damn man people are still raging over this? Can the fringe group just give it up and stop trying to force Bioware into a conventional victory with a Disney ending?

Refusal. I've never seen a more coward group. Refusal b/c you're too scared to get blood on your hands so the whole cycle pays. So self-righteous and selfish in your morality that you literally sacrifice +9 races, +100 billion people on principle.

I'm going to bet that these people would only do it in a game. If they had to deal with the reality of watching their wife, children and love ones dying due to their inaction, they'd change their self-righteous tone in a heartbeat.

See my previous post there is more to life then just living.

You can say that, selfishly, because you don't represent anything but yourself. Have a family and real friends and then say that you would watch your family die before your eyes just to stay principled, then i'll believe you.

[wantedman dan]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Are army generals not principled? yet they have to send soldiers to die.

I'm extremely principled but unlike you, i can understand when my principles compromise more than just my dignity. I can look at the bigger picture. I'm non-violent but if my wife and daughter are about to be raped and slaughtered before my eyes, should i act or 'stay principled'? 

It's WWII
I'm America
You're France

lol

Your moral relativism is as delicious as your total ignorance of the concept of having principles.

[Bomma72]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Damn man people are still raging over this? Can the fringe group just give it up and stop trying to force Bioware into a conventional victory with a Disney ending?

Refusal. I've never seen a more coward group. Refusal b/c you're too scared to get blood on your hands so the whole cycle pays. So self-righteous and selfish in your morality that you literally sacrifice +9 races, +100 billion people on principle.

I'm going to bet that these people would only do it in a game. If they had to deal with the reality of watching their wife, children and love ones dying due to their inaction, they'd change their self-righteous tone in a heartbeat.

See my previous post there is more to life then just living.

You can say that, selfishly, because you don't represent anything but yourself. Have a family and real friends and then say that you would watch your family die before your eyes just to stay principled, then i'll believe you.

I would let my family die before I would help sell them into slavery yes, I would fight to the death for freedom and I am sure they would feel the same and that is exactly what Shaperd did.  

[Bomma72]

Funkdrspot wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Damn man people are still raging over this? Can the fringe group just give it up and stop trying to force Bioware into a conventional victory with a Disney ending?

Refusal. I've never seen a more coward group. Refusal b/c you're too scared to get blood on your hands so the whole cycle pays. So self-righteous and selfish in your morality that you literally sacrifice +9 races, +100 billion people on principle.

I'm going to bet that these people would only do it in a game. If they had to deal with the reality of watching their wife, children and love ones dying due to their inaction, they'd change their self-righteous tone in a heartbeat.

I'm willing to bet you don't have many principles, do you?

Are army generals not principled? yet they have to send soldiers to die.

I'm extremely principled but unlike you, i can understand when my principles compromise more than just my dignity. I can look at the bigger picture. I'm non-violent but if my wife and daughter are about to be raped and slaughtered before my eyes, should i act or 'stay principled'? 

It's WWII
I'm America
You're France

Nope it is 1775 and you (shepard) are America.

Modifié par Bomma72, 29 juin 2012 - 07:00 .

[Funkdrspot]

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Sovereign: I am going to destroy you
Shepard: Like hell you are.
Harbinger: There is no hope we are the vanguard of your destruction.
Shepard: BS I am going to stop you.
Space Brat (the combination of all reapers mind you, he tells you so): You have 3 choices that all basically suck.
Shepard: Where do I sign.

Stupid.

Your summary is lacking in a lot of important facts.  For instance, the fact that the Crucible was Shepard's stated goal through the entire final game, the fact that you don't have to accept the Catalyst's logic, the fact that any victory against a force as powerful as the Reapers will require great sacrifice, etc.

I don't mind the sacrifice, but to me the refusal ending is the most authentic to the story.  When I heard Shepard's speach (which I had missed the first time because it was the shot starbrat ending), I was happy again and right away I loved Mass Effect.  

Ever see the movie the Crusible (ironic that it is named that).  At the end when they want John Proctor to just lie and admit he was a Witch, and he says you have taken everything from me just leave me my name, and then he dies so that he doesn't have to do something that was against his character.  That is exactly how I feel about the refusal ending, and I don't care what bioware or anyone else has to say about it.  Don't care if the Reapers won for the rest of etierinty.  My Sheppard when out like the boss he had always been, fighting for freedom and humanity.  

I will leave this here starts around the 5 minute mark.

www.youtube.com/watch

Problem. How crappy is your morality, freedom and humanity if 1 person's simple decision is worth the lives of billions? 

You literally are saying that 1 billion more years of the reapers, 20000 cycles, 200000 unique races and likely TRILLIONS of lives are worth less to you than 'going out like a boss'?!

I will not make my Shepard a monster to do so.  Freedom for the galaxy is more importaint then life, the fact that they let my Shepard act this out in the game made it awsome.

How is what i described NOT a monster? You are literally reverse Hitler. You are SO principled, that you actually stand in the way of REAL morality. You would allow innocent BILLIONS to be slaughtered because of your own self-righteousness.

I understand how you guys can play the mental gymnastics required to validate your decisions. It's because you don't fully quantify how many lives are at risk and to them it's just a sea of faceless people....but jesus stop acting like Refuse is the moral choice. It's not. It's quite literally the most selfish, amoral choice you could make. The only thing worse than choosing refuse is BEING the catalyst and carrying out the slaughter.

You guys are literally the French. Throwing down your arms and letting the Jews get exterminated b/c you don't want to sacrifice. Except in this version, EVERYONE dies in a gas chamber.

[Funkdrspot]

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Damn man people are still raging over this? Can the fringe group just give it up and stop trying to force Bioware into a conventional victory with a Disney ending?

Refusal. I've never seen a more coward group. Refusal b/c you're too scared to get blood on your hands so the whole cycle pays. So self-righteous and selfish in your morality that you literally sacrifice +9 races, +100 billion people on principle.

I'm going to bet that these people would only do it in a game. If they had to deal with the reality of watching their wife, children and love ones dying due to their inaction, they'd change their self-righteous tone in a heartbeat.

See my previous post there is more to life then just living.

You can say that, selfishly, because you don't represent anything but yourself. Have a family and real friends and then say that you would watch your family die before your eyes just to stay principled, then i'll believe you.

I would let my family die before I would help sell them into slavery yes, I would fight to the death for freedom and I am sure they would feel the same and that is exactly what Shaperd did.  

Nice spin but you have 4 options and none of them are slavery.

[Ryzaki]

...Seriously don't drag real life comparisons into this. That'll get this thread locked quick and in a hurry.

As for principles. People have different ones. Different beliefs on what's worth dying for and what's not. Some rate self will and reliance over life. Some don't. Some see no problem in using your enemies tools to improve your future. Some do.

My Reject Shepard doesn't trust Starbrat. He'd rather struggle and fight and die on his terms than grasp victory only because the Catalyst allows it. He'd rather die free doing all he could and leaving all he can behind for others to step over his corpse and defeat the Reapers on their terms without feeding into the Catalyst's garbage and live free by having them end the reaper threat permanently than the temporary reprieve he believes the RGB choices will lead to.

My Destroy Shepard? He trusts the galaxy to deal with it if another threat like the Reapers show up. He will sacrifice allies if it's needed for victory. He doesn't like it but he'll do it. He wants his cycle to live, to continue, for the Reapers to die, no matter the cost.

My Control Shepard? He takes the chance at saving the most lives he can. He'll insure personally that another threat like the Reapers won't exist. Even if it costs him his life and his humanity. Freedom? Hah. As long as the galaxy's safe freedom means squat to him.

They'd all rather die than pick Synthesis though. So they have that in common.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 07:04 .

[Geneaux486]

Things tend to get awkward when we try to judge one another's real life morality based on actions made in a video game.

[Ryzaki]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Things tend to get awkward when we try to judge one another's real life morality based on actions made in a video game.

Agreed.

Video games are escapism. Most (if not all!) of them are built on doing things you wouldn't or couldn't do in real life.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 07:03 .

[wantedman dan]

Funkdrspot wrote...

How is what i described NOT a monster? You are literally reverse Hitler. You are SO principled, that you actually stand in the way of REAL morality. You would allow innocent BILLIONS to be slaughtered because of your own self-righteousness.

Yes, because real morality involves doing exactly what Hitler wanted which was the removal of self-determination. As for being "reverse Hitler," that's interesting considering, in the context in which you're using "reverse," it literally means the opposite.

Thanks for proving the point for us.

I understand how you guys can play the mental gymnastics required to validate your decisions. It's because you don't fully quantify how many lives are at risk and to them it's just a sea of faceless people....but jesus stop acting like Refuse is the moral choice. It's not. It's quite literally the most selfish, amoral choice you could make. The only thing worse than choosing refuse is BEING the catalyst and carrying out the slaughter.

It would seem to me that  the only one making mental gymnastics to validate opinions here is you, my friend. Jumping around from your WWII example, only to use it incorrectly and thus contradict yourself unintentionally, while funny to those of us observing it, is far more the jump, skip, hop than standing on the principles of freedom and self-determination.

You guys are literally the French. Throwing down your arms and letting the Jews get exterminated b/c you don't want to sacrifice. Except in this version, EVERYONE dies in a gas chamber.

Did you happen to miss a few days in Western Civ?

[Father_Jerusalem]

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Damn man people are still raging over this? Can the fringe group just give it up and stop trying to force Bioware into a conventional victory with a Disney ending?

Refusal. I've never seen a more coward group. Refusal b/c you're too scared to get blood on your hands so the whole cycle pays. So self-righteous and selfish in your morality that you literally sacrifice +9 races, +100 billion people on principle.

I'm going to bet that these people would only do it in a game. If they had to deal with the reality of watching their wife, children and love ones dying due to their inaction, they'd change their self-righteous tone in a heartbeat.

See my previous post there is more to life then just living.

You can say that, selfishly, because you don't represent anything but yourself. Have a family and real friends and then say that you would watch your family die before your eyes just to stay principled, then i'll believe you.

I would let my family die before I would help sell them into slavery yes, I would fight to the death for freedom and I am sure they would feel the same and that is exactly what Shaperd did.  

You're not selling your family into slavery. You're selling the guys who will kill your family, your family's family, your friends, your doctor, your teachers, your paperboy, everyone and everything you know, have ever known, and will ever know, into slavery.

If you're going to be self-righteously "moral", at least try and get the facts right. 

For the record, I'm absolutely sure that all those people would be absolutely fine with dying horrific horrific deaths and being zombified rather than you ending the threat to them once and for all.

Absolutely sure.

[Funkdrspot]

wantedman dan wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Are army generals not principled? yet they have to send soldiers to die.

I'm extremely principled but unlike you, i can understand when my principles compromise more than just my dignity. I can look at the bigger picture. I'm non-violent but if my wife and daughter are about to be raped and slaughtered before my eyes, should i act or 'stay principled'? 

It's WWII
I'm America
You're France

lol

Your moral relativism is as delicious as your total ignorance of the concept of having principles.

"When good men do nothing, evil triumphs. Evil, sin and sinful men must
be opposed. God commands those who are good, not just to avoid evil but
actively oppose it."

"When good men do nothing, they are no longer good. Many have the
mistaken notion that good is merely the absence of doing that which is
wrong. Not so! One is good not merely because he does no evil, but
because he is actively working for what is good. "Let him eschew evil,
and do good" (1 Pet. 3:11). James explained, "Therefore to him that
knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17)."

http://www.padfield....97/goodmen.html

[Bomma72]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Sovereign: I am going to destroy you
Shepard: Like hell you are.
Harbinger: There is no hope we are the vanguard of your destruction.
Shepard: BS I am going to stop you.
Space Brat (the combination of all reapers mind you, he tells you so): You have 3 choices that all basically suck.
Shepard: Where do I sign.

Stupid.

Your summary is lacking in a lot of important facts.  For instance, the fact that the Crucible was Shepard's stated goal through the entire final game, the fact that you don't have to accept the Catalyst's logic, the fact that any victory against a force as powerful as the Reapers will require great sacrifice, etc.

I don't mind the sacrifice, but to me the refusal ending is the most authentic to the story.  When I heard Shepard's speach (which I had missed the first time because it was the shot starbrat ending), I was happy again and right away I loved Mass Effect.  

Ever see the movie the Crusible (ironic that it is named that).  At the end when they want John Proctor to just lie and admit he was a Witch, and he says you have taken everything from me just leave me my name, and then he dies so that he doesn't have to do something that was against his character.  That is exactly how I feel about the refusal ending, and I don't care what bioware or anyone else has to say about it.  Don't care if the Reapers won for the rest of etierinty.  My Sheppard when out like the boss he had always been, fighting for freedom and humanity.  

I will leave this here starts around the 5 minute mark.

www.youtube.com/watch

Problem. How crappy is your morality, freedom and humanity if 1 person's simple decision is worth the lives of billions? 

You literally are saying that 1 billion more years of the reapers, 20000 cycles, 200000 unique races and likely TRILLIONS of lives are worth less to you than 'going out like a boss'?!

I will not make my Shepard a monster to do so.  Freedom for the galaxy is more importaint then life, the fact that they let my Shepard act this out in the game made it awsome.

How is what i described NOT a monster? You are literally reverse Hitler. You are SO principled, that you actually stand in the way of REAL morality. You would allow innocent BILLIONS to be slaughtered because of your own self-righteousness.

I understand how you guys can play the mental gymnastics required to validate your decisions. It's because you don't fully quantify how many lives are at risk and to them it's just a sea of faceless people....but jesus stop acting like Refuse is the moral choice. It's not. It's quite literally the most selfish, amoral choice you could make. The only thing worse than choosing refuse is BEING the catalyst and carrying out the slaughter.

You guys are literally the French. Throwing down your arms and letting the Jews get exterminated b/c you don't want to sacrifice. Except in this version, EVERYONE dies in a gas chamber.

That is totally wrong.  I am willing to fight to the death for my priciples.  You are will to sacrifice all of them so you can win which is not enough.  What does it profit a man if he wins the whole world but loses his soul.  I will not make the Universe slaves so that they can live, freedom is much more important then that.

Would you have surrendered to the Germans if they would let you family live, would you have given up you jewish neighbor, to save your wife, or the town that you live in?  I wouldn't.

Modifié par Bomma72, 29 juin 2012 - 07:11 .

[Funkdrspot]

wantedman dan wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

How is what i described NOT a monster? You are literally reverse Hitler. You are SO principled, that you actually stand in the way of REAL morality. You would allow innocent BILLIONS to be slaughtered because of your own self-righteousness.

Yes, because real morality involves doing exactly what Hitler wanted which was the removal of self-determination. As for being "reverse Hitler," that's interesting considering, in the context in which you're using "reverse," it literally means the opposite.

Thanks for proving the point for us.

I understand how you guys can play the mental gymnastics required to validate your decisions. It's because you don't fully quantify how many lives are at risk and to them it's just a sea of faceless people....but jesus stop acting like Refuse is the moral choice. It's not. It's quite literally the most selfish, amoral choice you could make. The only thing worse than choosing refuse is BEING the catalyst and carrying out the slaughter.

It would seem to me that  the only one making mental gymnastics to validate opinions here is you, my friend. Jumping around from your WWII example, only to use it incorrectly and thus contradict yourself unintentionally, while funny to those of us observing it, is far more the jump, skip, hop than standing on the principles of freedom and self-determination.

You guys are literally the French. Throwing down your arms and letting the Jews get exterminated b/c you don't want to sacrifice. Except in this version, EVERYONE dies in a gas chamber.

Did you happen to miss a few days in Western Civ?

You're literally playing mental gymnastics throughout this whole argument. You literally could not spin this argument any more than you already have, which is really the only way you can argue your point.

[Ryzaki]

That's why morality high horses don't work.

All of the endings have a flaw.

Control? You're mindraping the Reapers and allowing constant abominations to continue existing. (arguably it's the least bad of the lot) You however now have an unstoppable army and use it to have your will carried out on the rest of organic life. Whether they like it or not.

Destroy? You kill the Reapers and their abominations but you also kill all Synthetic life. Whoops.

Synthesis? You modify both organic and synthetic life without their knowledge or consent so starbrat is appeased. ...do I need to say anything more?

Reject? You don't do any of the above but now everyone's stuck fighting a final battle that they can't win. The Reapers continue the cycle. Everyone's dead dave.

They all have some moral flaw! It just depends on what your morals are whether or not the choices are acceptable to you.

Destroy, Control and Reject are all acceptable to me and depending on the Shep. Synthesis? Not acceptable.

Someone else may be different.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 07:10 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Funkdrspot wrote...

You can say that, selfishly, because you don't represent anything but yourself. Have a family and real friends and then say that you would watch your family die before your eyes just to stay principled, then i'll believe you.

You're throwing an awful lot of blind trust that those buttons do exactly what the thing responsible for the reapers says they'll do. Reminds me of some well known psychological studies involving button pushing.

Rejecting the options presented and trying to make a new one isn't the slightest bit selfish. Doesn't mean it will be any more successful though.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 29 juin 2012 - 07:09 .

[wantedman dan]

Funkdrspot wrote...

"When good men do nothing, evil triumphs. Evil, sin and sinful men must
be opposed. God commands those who are good, not just to avoid evil but
actively oppose it."

"When good men do nothing, they are no longer good. Many have the
mistaken notion that good is merely the absence of doing that which is
wrong. Not so! One is good not merely because he does no evil, but
because he is actively working for what is good. "Let him eschew evil,
and do good" (1 Pet. 3:11). James explained, "Therefore to him that
knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17)."

http://www.padfield....97/goodmen.html

Okay, great. You brought reality-based morality AND religion into this little talk we're having.

On top of that, you claim, claim, bash, claim, and bash, yet you have nothing substantive to offer.

Remind me why I should take you seriously.

[Funkdrspot]

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Sovereign: I am going to destroy you
Shepard: Like hell you are.
Harbinger: There is no hope we are the vanguard of your destruction.
Shepard: BS I am going to stop you.
Space Brat (the combination of all reapers mind you, he tells you so): You have 3 choices that all basically suck.
Shepard: Where do I sign.

Stupid.

Your summary is lacking in a lot of important facts.  For instance, the fact that the Crucible was Shepard's stated goal through the entire final game, the fact that you don't have to accept the Catalyst's logic, the fact that any victory against a force as powerful as the Reapers will require great sacrifice, etc.

I don't mind the sacrifice, but to me the refusal ending is the most authentic to the story.  When I heard Shepard's speach (which I had missed the first time because it was the shot starbrat ending), I was happy again and right away I loved Mass Effect.  

Ever see the movie the Crusible (ironic that it is named that).  At the end when they want John Proctor to just lie and admit he was a Witch, and he says you have taken everything from me just leave me my name, and then he dies so that he doesn't have to do something that was against his character.  That is exactly how I feel about the refusal ending, and I don't care what bioware or anyone else has to say about it.  Don't care if the Reapers won for the rest of etierinty.  My Sheppard when out like the boss he had always been, fighting for freedom and humanity.  

I will leave this here starts around the 5 minute mark.

www.youtube.com/watch

Problem. How crappy is your morality, freedom and humanity if 1 person's simple decision is worth the lives of billions? 

You literally are saying that 1 billion more years of the reapers, 20000 cycles, 200000 unique races and likely TRILLIONS of lives are worth less to you than 'going out like a boss'?!

I will not make my Shepard a monster to do so.  Freedom for the galaxy is more importaint then life, the fact that they let my Shepard act this out in the game made it awsome.

How is what i described NOT a monster? You are literally reverse Hitler. You are SO principled, that you actually stand in the way of REAL morality. You would allow innocent BILLIONS to be slaughtered because of your own self-righteousness.

I understand how you guys can play the mental gymnastics required to validate your decisions. It's because you don't fully quantify how many lives are at risk and to them it's just a sea of faceless people....but jesus stop acting like Refuse is the moral choice. It's not. It's quite literally the most selfish, amoral choice you could make. The only thing worse than choosing refuse is BEING the catalyst and carrying out the slaughter.

You guys are literally the French. Throwing down your arms and letting the Jews get exterminated b/c you don't want to sacrifice. Except in this version, EVERYONE dies in a gas chamber.

That is totally wrong.  I am will to fight to the death for my priciples you are will to sacrifice all of them so you can win which is not enough.  What does it profit a man if he wins the whole world but loses his soul.  I will not make the Universe slaves so that they can live, freedom is much more important then that.

Would you have surrendered to the Germans if they would let you family live, would you have given up you jewish neighbor, to save your wife, or the town that you live in?  I wouldn't.

Maybe your problem is it's a game to you. The choices are made from the perspective of it being for a game.

Yes, you can fight to the death for your principles until you're just simply throwing yourself on the sword b/c you can't win the way you want.

Please tell me what your morality without a sense of context wins you when EVERYONE dies?! Nothing. Not a single damn thing. Who are you saving with your 'morality'? You're seriously condemning everyone to die because you cant realize that lives of billions are worth more than a single individual's morals. Seriously, you guys are trash.

[Geneaux486]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's why morality high horses don't work.

All of the endings have a flaw.

They all have some moral flaw! It just depends on what your morals are whether or not the choices are acceptable to you.

Destroy, Control and Reject are all acceptable to me and depending on the Shep. Synthesis? Not acceptable.

Someone else may be different.

I'm having a hard time remembering why we were at odds earlier, 'cause I agree with most of what you're saying here.

[wantedman dan]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Maybe your problem is it's a game to you. The choices are made from the perspective of it being for a game.

Yes, you can fight to the death for your principles until you're just simply throwing yourself on the sword b/c you can't win the way you want.

Please tell me what your morality without a sense of context wins you when EVERYONE dies?! Nothing. Not a single damn thing. Who are you saving with your 'morality'? You're seriously condemning everyone to die because you cant realize that lives of billions are worth more than a single individual's morals. Seriously, you guys are trash.

Maybe because it is a game.

Duh. You put the disc in, it starts turning (you can hear it whirr), and you play it.

You do realize that there is life afterward, no? Not everything is about the present.

[Funkdrspot]

wantedman dan wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

"When good men do nothing, evil triumphs. Evil, sin and sinful men must
be opposed. God commands those who are good, not just to avoid evil but
actively oppose it."

"When good men do nothing, they are no longer good. Many have the
mistaken notion that good is merely the absence of doing that which is
wrong. Not so! One is good not merely because he does no evil, but
because he is actively working for what is good. "Let him eschew evil,
and do good" (1 Pet. 3:11). James explained, "Therefore to him that
knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (James 4:17)."

http://www.padfield....97/goodmen.html

Okay, great. You brought reality-based morality AND religion into this little talk we're having.

On top of that, you claim, claim, bash, claim, and bash, yet you have nothing substantive to offer.

Remind me why I should take you seriously.

LoL here you go with that spin again. This convo SHOULD be reality-based morality because you should be playing Shepard as if YOU are HIM. As if YOU were the one with the decision to make. You shouldn't be playing him like he's a video game character.

The religion afixed to the quote does not matter. The point is still valid without it.

How did i NOT bring anything substantive to the convo when you, yourself JUST said that i brought REALITY-BASED MORALITY into the convo? Go check the meaning of substative.

[Bomma72]

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Funkdrspot wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...

Sovereign: I am going to destroy you
Shepard: Like hell you are.
Harbinger: There is no hope we are the vanguard of your destruction.
Shepard: BS I am going to stop you.
Space Brat (the combination of all reapers mind you, he tells you so): You have 3 choices that all basically suck.
Shepard: Where do I sign.

Stupid.

Your summary is lacking in a lot of important facts.  For instance, the fact that the Crucible was Shepard's stated goal through the entire final game, the fact that you don't have to accept the Catalyst's logic, the fact that any victory against a force as powerful as the Reapers will require great sacrifice, etc.

I don't mind the sacrifice, but to me the refusal ending is the most authentic to the story.  When I heard Shepard's speach (which I had missed the first time because it was the shot starbrat ending), I was happy again and right away I loved Mass Effect.  

Ever see the movie the Crusible (ironic that it is named that).  At the end when they want John Proctor to just lie and admit he was a Witch, and he says you have taken everything from me just leave me my name, and then he dies so that he doesn't have to do something that was against his character.  That is exactly how I feel about the refusal ending, and I don't care what bioware or anyone else has to say about it.  Don't care if the Reapers won for the rest of etierinty.  My Sheppard when out like the boss he had always been, fighting for freedom and humanity.  

I will leave this here starts around the 5 minute mark.

www.youtube.com/watch

Problem. How crappy is your morality, freedom and humanity if 1 person's simple decision is worth the lives of billions? 

You literally are saying that 1 billion more years of the reapers, 20000 cycles, 200000 unique races and likely TRILLIONS of lives are worth less to you than 'going out like a boss'?!

I will not make my Shepard a monster to do so.  Freedom for the galaxy is more importaint then life, the fact that they let my Shepard act this out in the game made it awsome.

How is what i described NOT a monster? You are literally reverse Hitler. You are SO principled, that you actually stand in the way of REAL morality. You would allow innocent BILLIONS to be slaughtered because of your own self-righteousness.

I understand how you guys can play the mental gymnastics required to validate your decisions. It's because you don't fully quantify how many lives are at risk and to them it's just a sea of faceless people....but jesus stop acting like Refuse is the moral choice. It's not. It's quite literally the most selfish, amoral choice you could make. The only thing worse than choosing refuse is BEING the catalyst and carrying out the slaughter.

You guys are literally the French. Throwing down your arms and letting the Jews get exterminated b/c you don't want to sacrifice. Except in this version, EVERYONE dies in a gas chamber.

That is totally wrong.  I am will to fight to the death for my priciples you are will to sacrifice all of them so you can win which is not enough.  What does it profit a man if he wins the whole world but loses his soul.  I will not make the Universe slaves so that they can live, freedom is much more important then that.

Would you have surrendered to the Germans if they would let you family live, would you have given up you jewish neighbor, to save your wife, or the town that you live in?  I wouldn't.

Maybe your problem is it's a game to you. The choices are made from the perspective of it being for a game.

Yes, you can fight to the death for your principles until you're just simply throwing yourself on the sword b/c you can't win the way you want.

Please tell me what your morality without a sense of context wins you when EVERYONE dies?! Nothing. Not a single damn thing. Who are you saving with your 'morality'? You're seriously condemning everyone to die because you cant realize that lives of billions are worth more than a single individual's morals. Seriously, you guys are trash.

Again it is not about my morals it is about the universes freedom, living as slaves is not really living.  If I follow your logic to conclusion if the Germans had said, just give us all your Jews and we will end all hostilities you would have excepted that because it saves the most lives.  I don't think you understand what you are really arguing for.

[wantedman dan]

Funkdrspot wrote...

LoL here you go with that spin again. This convo SHOULD be reality-based morality because you should be playing Shepard as if YOU are HIM. As if YOU were the one with the decision to make. You shouldn't be playing him like he's a video game character.

The religion afixed to the quote does not matter. The point is still valid without it.

How did i NOT bring anything substantive to the convo when you, yourself JUST said that i brought REALITY-BASED MORALITY into the convo? Go check the meaning of substative.

You do realize that some people do play RPG's to escape, right? Do you think everybody should be required to play as you do?

Your arguments are not substantive. That is the point. Shall I be mother and spell everything out for you?

Modifié par wantedman dan, 29 juin 2012 - 07:17 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's why morality high horses don't work.

All of the endings have a flaw.

Control? You're mindraping the Reapers and allowing constant abominations to continue existing. (arguably it's the least bad of the lot) You however now have an unstoppable army and use it to have your will carried out on the rest of organic life. Whether they like it or not.

Destroy? You kill the Reapers and their abominations but you also kill all Synthetic life. Whoops.

Synthesis? You modify both organic and synthetic life without their knowledge or consent so starbrat is appeased. ...do I need to say anything more?

Reject? You don't do any of the above but now everyone's stuck fighting a final battle that they can't win. The Reapers continue the cycle. Everyone's dead dave.

They all have some moral flaw! It just depends on what your morals are whether or not the choices are acceptable to you.

Destroy, Control and Reject are all acceptable to me and depending on the Shep. Synthesis? Not acceptable.

Someone else may be different.

Well. Yeah. Which is why my advice to you earlier was to not pick Synthesis.