505 réponses à ce sujet

[saracen16]

MuKen wrote...

 
It's great that they allow you to reject the options now. It returns to the paradigm that you play your Shepard the way *you* want his/her personality to be, and they show you the outcome of that. And if that means you lose the war, and the next cycle learns from your mistakes and beats them, that's a perfectly legitimate outcome, and one I even like.

But the fact that they don't show you the details for it, no cutscenes or slides or anything, the fact that this ending has far less work put into it than any of the others, the fact that the game counts this as a loss on your achieves and not a win, is really a slap in the face.   If anything, there is a lot MORE that needs to be explained in this ending, since it's not as obvious what happened to your team.  Did they all die in that battle right there?  Did some escape to fight to the end?  Reapers wiping out a cycle takes generations, Javik said this.  There's a whole story introduced there being skipped over.  Did anybody try to make stasis pods (an obvious move considering that's how Javik is even in the game)?  How did that pan out?  Then to top it off, they don't count it as game completion on your achievements.  Go back and try one of the options that actually completes the game, thanks.

This is the first time in the series that Bioware has said one of your player choices is the "wrong" one. You're supposed to pick one of these other three, and if you don't, you played the game wrong.

Wtf? There isn't supposed to be a wrong way to be Shepard, it's your Shepard. That's the founding theme of this series. 

At least the option exists, but you suffer the consequences.

How dare they let you be accountable for your own decisions!

[shodiswe]

Velocithon wrote...

I want to know why the Catalyst says "So be it" in such a deep, menacing voice and then right after says "the cycle continues" in his usual voice.

I have no idea what that was.

It got upset that you didn't pick synthesis which was the whole purpose of it's construction.  Since you didn't pick an option it jsut wiped everyone out fulls peed, no holding back, you were no longer a potential resource, you were weed that was in the way of the next cycle that might be more interesting. Or a few more down the road until they manage to give the Reapers synthesis or destory them or take control and stop the madness.

[nikola8]

To quote the OP:

MuKen wrote...

 
It's great that they allow you to reject the options now. It returns to the paradigm that you play your Shepard the way *you* want his/her personality to be, and they show you the outcome of that. And if that means you lose the war, and the next cycle learns from your mistakes and beats them, that's a perfectly legitimate outcome, and one I even like.

But the fact that they don't show you the details for it, no cutscenes or slides or anything 

The next cycle actually DOES learn from the mistakes and beats the Reapers.  There isn't an epilogue because everyone in Shepard's cycle gets wiped out.  However, after the credits, there is a new scene with the Stargazer talking to the Child where they credit Shepard with providing the information that they used to ultimately beat the Reapers.  So Refuse isn't that bad, if you watch after the credits.

[Psile_01]

I personally took the reject option as a slap in the face, but also figured that there was no reason to get offended since it's their story and they can decide if conventional victory works or not. I got the distinct sense that they were sending a message to players when I shot the catalyst and got that ending. That change seemed personal. Also, the no game finish achievement is a pretty good indicator that they are saying that you didn't, um, finish the game. Ergo you chose wrong. Plus, Bioware has been catty about this whole situation from day one, so it seems to be in character.

[Bomma72]

Zulama wrote...

I strongly believe the choices reflect your favorite characters throughout the trilogy. 1) Synthesis - If you were a fan of a psychopathic back stabbing murderer known as Saren, this one is for you! 2) Control - If you were a fan of the illusive man who did anything he could to save humanity no matter the circumstances, this one is for you! 3) Destroy - If you respected your mentor and friend Anderson, you would picked this ending. <------ THUS WHY THIS IS THE ONLY GOOD ENDING, SHEPARD LIVES. 4) Refusal - If you want your Shepard to become space Jesus then this one is for you!. The Destroy Ending was the only good one, even though it is sad to see EDI, the Geth and technology fail, its the only good one that allows you to pay your respects to your mentor/father figure (Earthborn). + Hacket talks on behave of your choices, isn't that honorable?

Actually if Star Brat is to be believed and if you picked any of his choices then you must believe him to some extent, then Synthsis and refuse are the only ways the cycle doesn't repeat itself, as starbrat says if you choice distroy the cycle will just repeat itself.  Refuse is the only way you can chose not to believe his lies, stay true to yourself and win. 

Modifié par Bomma72, 28 juin 2012 - 09:16 .

[shodiswe]

If it had been possible to ignore the crucible and fight them conventianly then the crucible would never have been constructed in the first place...

It took massive resources, which could have added more weapons or ships.. It was a complete unknown, it was only accepted due to everyones desperaton.
The other races join as the become increasingly desperate...

And then when no hope exists and shepar is given three option that could save trillions of lives... Shepard goes...
: NO!!! I won't pick any of those options! I dont want to destroy one specis to save everyone else! I don't want to become the king of all reapers for all erernity and ensure everyones safety, and help with the rebuilding efforts!!
And I certainly don't want to turn everyone into hybrids...

It's possible that the failed organics that failed a similar synthesis possibility failed because they didn't want to accept the catalysts option for survival.

I can't see how refusal to take action is better than attempting control... even if you don't want to destroy the geth, or turn everyone to a hybrid doing something should be better than letting the cycle continue.

Personaly I find it hard to say which ending was the best, the green eyes that some people seem to be so revolted by isn't that troubling to me.. I find it more troubling that the reapers and possibly the catalyst got redemed...

But in the end destroy, control, and Synthesis are all victories because it offered a chance at survival where once there was none what so ever.

Refusal is a slap in the face to everyone who died trying to save the galaxy, to all those out there dying while shepard is refusing... and a dooming of the whole galaxy... possibly including several future cycles until someone has the guts to pick a choice that ends the killing.

The control ending is kind of a diplomatic victory and a subjugation and pacification of the Reapers. It also sounds like it might kill the Catalyst that's the architect begidn these mass muderering sprees.
It's possibly the most justifiable option.. Synthesis is ok if you think you can forgive the catalyst and reapers, if you buy into the fire burns rethoric.

[Geneaux486]

Bomma72 wrote...
Refusing to use your own weapon because it will distroy all your principles and distroy who you are anyway is a win any day in my book. 

Plus you the player wins in the next cycle.

If Shepard's convictions compel him to condemn his friends and allies to unescesarry death/Reaperficiation before using his own weaon to end the Reaper threat in a manner of his choosing, then that Shepard is either an idiot or a psychopath.  Using the Crucible isn't just the right thing to do, it's what he was ordered to do by his superiors, so by refusing, he's both a war criminal and a mass murderer.  I get that it can be interpreted as Shepard holding onto his ideals (even though he can do that with the Crucible anyway), but the fact is that as a direct result of Shepard's refusal, billions will die and be processed into Reaper form needlesly.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...
Refusing to use your own weapon because it will distroy all your principles and distroy who you are anyway is a win any day in my book. 

Plus you the player wins in the next cycle.

but the fact is that as a direct result of Shepard's refusal, billions will die and be processed into Reaper form needlesly.

Maybe not needlessly after all. Because Reapers are defeated at the end, and without murder of innocents by the hand of who supposed to be their protector. Wheither its worth it or not, down to system of values of particular player. It's an old moral dilemma "if its acceptable to murder one to save millions". All ending arguments are centered around such millenia-old different moral dilemmas, which don't really have definite answer.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 28 juin 2012 - 10:13 .

[Clayless]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...
Refusing to use your own weapon because it will distroy all your principles and distroy who you are anyway is a win any day in my book. 

Plus you the player wins in the next cycle.

If Shepard's convictions compel him to condemn his friends and allies to unescesarry death/Reaperficiation before using his own weaon to end the Reaper threat in a manner of his choosing, then that Shepard is either an idiot or a psychopath.  Using the Crucible isn't just the right thing to do, it's what he was ordered to do by his superiors, so by refusing, he's both a war criminal and a mass murderer.  I get that it can be interpreted as Shepard holding onto his ideals (even though he can do that with the Crucible anyway), but the fact is that as a direct result of Shepard's refusal, billions will die and be processed into Reaper form needlesly.

Trillions you mean, plus Shepard did not know what would happen in the next cycles.

By choosing refuse Shepard has become the biggest terrorist in the history of the galaxy, his crime dwarfs Hitler and TIM tenfold. Arguably he's just as bad as the Reapers as he had a chance to stop them, but instead of trying he knowingly let them continue to kill every being in the galaxy and destroy this cycles history and future for his own selfish beliefs.

He makes TIM seem like a friendly bunny.

Modifié par Our_Last_Scene, 28 juin 2012 - 10:14 .

[v TricKy v]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Bomma72 wrote...
Refusing to use your own weapon because it will distroy all your principles and distroy who you are anyway is a win any day in my book. 

Plus you the player wins in the next cycle.

If Shepard's convictions compel him to condemn his friends and allies to unescesarry death/Reaperficiation before using his own weaon to end the Reaper threat in a manner of his choosing, then that Shepard is either an idiot or a psychopath.  Using the Crucible isn't just the right thing to do, it's what he was ordered to do by his superiors, so by refusing, he's both a war criminal and a mass murderer.  I get that it can be interpreted as Shepard holding onto his ideals (even though he can do that with the Crucible anyway), but the fact is that as a direct result of Shepard's refusal, billions will die and be processed into Reaper form needlesly.

yeah its cleary better to trust someone or something which is actually responsible for all the deaths<_<
the star kid and his flawed logic is the ONLY reason we are in this dilemma. Pretty naive to trust someone who killed trillions 

[Geneaux486]

v TricKy v wrote...yeah its cleary better to trust someone or something which is actually responsible for all the deaths<_<

You're sarcastically saying it's clearly better to take a chance at activating your own weapon following your enemy's surrender than to walk away and let everyone depending on you die.  That's like sarcastically saying it's a good idea to breathe otherwise you'll pass out.

Basically, you're accidentally right.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 28 juin 2012 - 10:27 .

[Clayless]

v TricKy v wrote...
yeah its cleary better to trust someone or something which is actually responsible for all the deaths<_<
the star kid and his flawed logic is the ONLY reason we are in this dilemma. Pretty naive to trust someone who killed trillions 

Trust him, he's telling the truth, and you stop the Reapers.

Trust him, he's lying, and everyone dies.

Do nothing and everyone dies.

[Geneaux486]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
Trust him, he's telling the truth, and you stop the Reapers.

Trust him, he's lying, and everyone dies.

Do nothing and everyone dies.

You don't even have to trust him if you pick destroy, at that point you're just doing what you knew you were going there to do anyway. 

[thefallen2far]

No. Hitler was not the victim of genocide. It's ridiculous that you're coming to that conclusion. Your personal attachment to defending the shoehorned ending is frustrating you to the point that you associate dissent and distaste insulted by the "eff you" ending to defending Hitler. Calm down. Understand what you say before say it. And the respond.

[Clayless]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
Trust him, he's telling the truth, and you stop the Reapers.

Trust him, he's lying, and everyone dies.

Do nothing and everyone dies.

You don't even have to trust him if you pick destroy, at that point you're just doing what you knew you were going there to do anyway. 

No you're trusting him even when you pick destroy.

[VoodooDrackus]

Because it is the wrong choice. It is essentially not making a choice at all, it goes against everything you have already done up to that point. The act of making a choice to stop the Reaper threat. Although you could argue not making a choice is a choice if you like infinite loops. You have made choices (good or bad) that have lead you to creating the crucible and to inevitably activating it. You know, they could have just made it so that you fire it up and it does something based on your EMS rating without giving you a choice. You may have liked that better since it would completely circumvent the catalyst. But Bioware saw fit to give you a choice, just like they did throughout the entire series.

To sit there and say that your Shepard would never accept the choices that can end the Reaper conflict is completey ludicrous since you have been fighting to stop the reapers throughout the entire series. While you are at it, why don't you demand that Bioware let you refuse to make a decision on who lives or dies during ME 1? You know, so you don't have to make the hard choice. Whoever dies, dies.

[Geneaux486]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
No you're trusting him even when you pick destroy.

I disagree.  If your Shepard is dead set on destroying the Reapers, nothing fundamanetal changes when hearing the Catalyst speak.  Regardless of what it says, you still do what you came there to do, what you were ordered to do, what the plan was all along.  The Catalyst doesn't even technically tell you to shoot that power core or whatever it was to catalyze the blast.  Dunno if the vision of Anderson doing it was something Shepard saw or if it was just for the player, but either way the Catalyst never vocalizes how, just that it can be done.

While you are at it, why don't you demand that Bioware let you refuse to make a decision on who lives or dies during ME 1? You know, so you don't have to make the hard choice. Whoever dies, dies.

"Kaidan or Ashley!?  Ashley or Kaidan!?  **** it you're both on your own."

Modifié par Geneaux486, 28 juin 2012 - 10:37 .

[Clayless]

Geneaux486 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
No you're trusting him even when you pick destroy.

I disagree.  If your Shepard is dead set on destroying the Reapers, nothing fundamanetal changes when hearing the Catalyst speak.  Regardless of what it says, you still do what you came there to do, what you were ordered to do, what the plan was all along.  The Catalyst doesn't even technically tell you to shoot that power core or whatever it was to catalyze the blast.  Dunno if the vision of Anderson doing it was something Shepard saw or if it was just for the player, but either way the Catalyst never vocalizes how, just that it can be done.

You're trusting the Catalyst even when you choose destroy. You're going off of his word, the exact same thing you go off when you chose control and synthesis.

[saracen16]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
No you're trusting him even when you pick destroy.

I disagree.  If your Shepard is dead set on destroying the Reapers, nothing fundamanetal changes when hearing the Catalyst speak.  Regardless of what it says, you still do what you came there to do, what you were ordered to do, what the plan was all along.  The Catalyst doesn't even technically tell you to shoot that power core or whatever it was to catalyze the blast.  Dunno if the vision of Anderson doing it was something Shepard saw or if it was just for the player, but either way the Catalyst never vocalizes how, just that it can be done.

You're trusting the Catalyst even when you choose destroy. You're going off of his word, the exact same thing you go off when you chose control and synthesis.

It doesn't matter whether you trust the Catalyst or not. It is irrelevant and unnecessary. The point is that we are using the Crucible to stop the Reapers, and we know that it is the only way. He even acknowledges that the variables have been altered, and that a new solution is therefore possible.

[thefallen2far]

I think if Bioware said you had to shoot either Kaiden or Ashley to beat Saren, and they had a cut scene to you refusing and he kills you, the audience garnered would be more to your [and mac walters and Casey Hudson's] liking.

[saracen16]

VoodooDrackus wrote...

Because it is the wrong choice. It is essentially not making a choice at all, it goes against everything you have already done up to that point. The act of making a choice to stop the Reaper threat. Although you could argue not making a choice is a choice if you like infinite loops. You have made choices (good or bad) that have lead you to creating the crucible and to inevitably activating it. You know, they could have just made it so that you fire it up and it does something based on your EMS rating without giving you a choice. You may have liked that better since it would completely circumvent the catalyst. But Bioware saw fit to give you a choice, just like they did throughout the entire series.

To sit there and say that your Shepard would never accept the choices that can end the Reaper conflict is completey ludicrous since you have been fighting to stop the reapers throughout the entire series. While you are at it, why don't you demand that Bioware let you refuse to make a decision on who lives or dies during ME 1? You know, so you don't have to make the hard choice. Whoever dies, dies.

Indeed! Let's try to save both Ashley and Kaidan! Let's try to leave the rachni queen to the council! Let's save the Collector base but keep TIM's greasy fingers out of it! Mass Effect is all about tough choices and tough consequences. It would be BORING and UNREALISTIC if we didn't have real choices or real consequences.

If you didn't catch my sarcasm, I'm agreeing with you.

[saracen16]

thefallen2far wrote...

I think if Bioware said you had to shoot either Kaiden or Ashley to beat Saren, and they had a cut scene to you refusing and he kills you, the audience garnered would be more to your [and mac walters and Casey Hudson's] liking.

Are you going to protect the bomb from the geth who might disarm it, or are you going to leave it be because the person guarding it armed it and is a dead man or woman anyways?

[VoodooDrackus]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...
No you're trusting him even when you pick destroy.

I disagree.  If your Shepard is dead set on destroying the Reapers, nothing fundamanetal changes when hearing the Catalyst speak.  Regardless of what it says, you still do what you came there to do, what you were ordered to do, what the plan was all along.  The Catalyst doesn't even technically tell you to shoot that power core or whatever it was to catalyze the blast.  Dunno if the vision of Anderson doing it was something Shepard saw or if it was just for the player, but either way the Catalyst never vocalizes how, just that it can be done.

You're trusting the Catalyst even when you choose destroy. You're going off of his word, the exact same thing you go off when you chose control and synthesis.

If you believe the Catalyst is lying, then you are trusting that he is lying to you and putting faith in your decision not to listen to him by refusing what he is saying. And since we all know the catalyst is not lying to you at all, you are basically a big dumb jerk, by refusing what you are being told, because you just destroyed everything you ever loved.

[N-Seven]

Hello, I am a prideful young male with stunted social skills. I don't like children, don't like being told what to do, and especially don't like children in video games telling me what to do. (Video games, which are my entitled kingdom, by the way.) However, I will thinly veil this under the lofty concepts of 'freedom', 'ideals' and 'honor', concepts which I honestly have a tenuous grasp of at best.

For these reasons I either shot the child (and laughed..re: I hate children) or held my breath and refused to go along, which made me feel macho.

Honestly, if the AI was a hot chick though I probably would have agreed with one of the other three options.

Modifié par N-Seven, 28 juin 2012 - 10:51 .

[Hyrist]

"Why are we slapped in the face for choosing refuse?"

The Cynic in me wants to say 'Because Refuse is effing moronic! That's why!'

Life lesson for you folks, you cannot have your cake and eat it to. If you expend the majority of your military force and resources to to build and protect a gamble that you do not use because you suddenly don't want it, you're going to have a bad time.

It does not matter how much EMS you gather, it's SPENT PROTECTING THE CRUCIBLE BEFORE YOU USE IT!

Rational thought prevails here. You're the one that wanted realism when you complained that Synthisis was "Space Magic" you wanted the ability to reject the Catalyst's choices.

Yet, you still expect to win after you've been told in the game a dozen times by differing characters that it's not possible to win conventionally.

The sheer velocity of facepalm this train of thought deserves would cause a nuclear winter.