505 réponses à ce sujet

[VoodooDrackus]

saracen16 wrote...


Indeed! Let's try to save both Ashley and Kaidan! Let's try to leave the rachni queen to the council! Let's save the Collector base but keep TIM's greasy fingers out of it! Mass Effect is all about tough choices and tough consequences. It would be BORING and UNREALISTIC if we didn't have real choices or real consequences.

If you didn't catch my sarcasm, I'm agreeing with you.

LOL.

I would have to be a complete idiot to not see that you were agreeing with me. Your descriptives of the choices I was referring to gave your sarcasm away.

[Alikain]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anuvis13 wrote...

I've posted this before in many topics. It's a glorified Game Over screen. It's a middle finger from BW to those who don't like their crap ending. They didn't make a power point for it. And then they go and say the next cycle STILL used the Crucible. It can't be more obvious. Still its better than R/B/G.

This.

BW can kiss my money goodbye after that attempt to be cute.
Also the Reapers CAN lose conventially if the cycle has enough time to prepare and resources to use. They're not gods.
The next cycle should be able to tell the Reapers (thanks to Liara's time capsules) to GTFO and blow them to hell without needing the Crucible. They have thousands of years to prepare.

Haha are you sure about that. isn't the same thing that the protheans try to do by warning our cycle about the reapers but that didn't work.

Modifié par Alikain, 28 juin 2012 - 11:00 .

[Hyrist]

People are objectifying choices between people easily.

"Oh Kaiden's dead in my game, I hate that guy."
"Who you kidding, Ashley is such a B****."

This issue with the endings is the same one.

If you don't like refuse, do something different. If you don't like any of the choices, boo hoo. The game has to end some way, and those are the choices you have.

I'd say it's a fair assumption that the reasonable people among us have conceeded that the endings are better, and for most of us, acceptable now.

But the Refusal choice being a slap in your face? Perhaps it was reality slapping you in the face, but not Bioware. They followed the story they wrote, in spite of giving you an ending you asked for. Most of you said that you didn't care if the Galaxy was devastated so long as the Reapers lost in the end, which happened in Refuse.

It's your colored perception that has you being slapped in the face. One of the Let's Plays I followed gave the perfect example.



As you watch, you'll note that he first CHOOSES Refuse ending, and revels in it because he feels he's telling Bioware "Eff U" But then goes back to Let's play the Destroy ending ,but goes to shoot the Catalyst to be cute, and suddenly he's pissed because he invoked the Refuse ending when he didn't 'mean to' - and that's BioWare's fault.

Mind you, I like the LPer, but I laugh at that logic. Love the ending the first time around, hate it the second time. A double-standard exposed right in the same video.

[Spartas Husky]

... coz they are wee wees

Hundreds of hours, effort sacrifice, preparation for nothing... which is what it still is. Nothing mattered in the end.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." -- John Ruskin

Shepard knows that Hackett is not prepared to fight this conventionally. If you choose this you are condemning the entire galaxy to death. You are condemning your species to becoming a reaper. You had the opportunity to succeed at your mission and destroy the reapers, and you let your pride get in the way and you failed. You failed everyone, including the next cycle.

If you chose this ending and are angry about the outcome, don't blame BioWare. Don't blame the catalyst. Blame yourself. I call this ending the "Full retard" ending.

There is no guarantee that the next cycle will act any differently.

[SirLugash]

I liked how the Refusal option turned out.
You have been told before that you can't defeat the Reapers conventionally, so you fail if you are not using the Crucible, which is the only hope to end this.
However, for me the ending was too short, I'd like to see this cycle end, seeing the Reapers build an complete the Human Reaper (and maybe some of other races aswell) and eventually retreating into dark space.
I believe this would have a bigger impact on the player.

[Hyrist]

 

... coz they are wee wees

Hundreds of hours, effort sacrifice, preparation for nothing... which is what it still is. Nothing mattered in the end.

Maybe in your opinion, but not in the reality of the game.

Everything mattered. If the Galaxy wasn't united, you woulden't make it to the Crucible. All your struggles lead you to that one point, that one decission. And if you refuse to make it, then it is Liara who takes up the banner, takes all your struggles, all your choices, and records them for the next generation to learn from your mistake.

You become the hero that failed to himself in the end. Instead of the Hero who ended the Galexy's biggest threat.


And if you do make a choice, and the Galaxy survives, everything pivots on your final decission.

Ultimately, all of the struggle and pain, death and misery was all to uplift you into a position of ultimate power - but only if you realized that people trusted you enough to grasp it. They put the fate of the Galaxy in your hands - your choice to fumble or not.

[Reever]

Apart from the lack of details, I liked that ending. Though it was kinda dumb in retrospect, because the next cycle destroyed the reapers by using the Crucible as well, so what was the point...?

[AtlasMickey]

thefallen2far wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...

 You want to hear the truth?

It couldn't have ended any other way.

errrrrrr.  Yeah it could.

No, it can't. The Catalyst even said, once they knew Synthesis was possible, it became inevitable.

[Shepard Wins]

I've replayed the endings (from Cerberus HQ) just now, after watching it on YT before, and they do make it very clear that the war is unwinnable without the Crucible. Oh well. The refuse option is just completely unnecessary in my opinion.

[Shepard Wins]

AtlasMickey wrote...

thefallen2far wrote...

AtlasMickey wrote...

 You want to hear the truth?

It couldn't have ended any other way.

errrrrrr.  Yeah it could.

No, it can't. The Catalyst even said, once they knew Synthesis was possible, it became inevitable.

Never mind him, he just likes to annoy people with his synthesis shenanigans.

[Geneaux486]

BlueDemonX wrote...

Apart from the lack of details, I liked that ending. Though it was kinda dumb in retrospect, because the next cycle destroyed the reapers by using the Crucible as well, so what was the point...?

To let the player make bad decisions.  Takes its place alongside gems like sparing Morinth over Samara, siding with Administrator Anoleis over Giana Parasini, and putting a bullet in Shiala's head after you've freed her from both the Thorian and Sovereign's influence.  In a weird way it does add to the game that we have the ability to make choices like that, regardless of whether or not we actually choose them.

[Ryzaki]

Alikain wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Anuvis13 wrote...

I've posted this before in many topics. It's a glorified Game Over screen. It's a middle finger from BW to those who don't like their crap ending. They didn't make a power point for it. And then they go and say the next cycle STILL used the Crucible. It can't be more obvious. Still its better than R/B/G.

This.

BW can kiss my money goodbye after that attempt to be cute.
Also the Reapers CAN lose conventially if the cycle has enough time to prepare and resources to use. They're not gods.
The next cycle should be able to tell the Reapers (thanks to Liara's time capsules) to GTFO and blow them to hell without needing the Crucible. They have thousands of years to prepare.

Haha are you sure about that. isn't the same thing that the protheans try to do by warning our cycle about the reapers but that didn't work.

Are you slow? Did you forget the Protheans left the warning in the beacon in telepathic communications? That no one could understand the beacons without getting their brain scrambled? That the Crucible plans by comparison were left in mere data troves that were understandable with a bit of guesswork? That those plans had been passed down cycle to cycle successfully? Or did that just go right over your head? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 12:59 .

[wantedman dan]

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Yes it does because shepard IS broken when they realise theres nothing left they can do.


how is this...hard to understand?  Also sweet "dodge" there.

It makes narrative sense becuase its the only possible followup to that action other than shepard killing themselves.

you're wrong.  sorry. 

THAT is why the ending fails. NONE of our choices matter.

YOUR Shepard may be broken, but don't you dare impress upon mine the beliefs of yours. I didn't spend over 100 hours of gameplay, gathering allies and resources, only to end as a broken shell.

If you can't handle that, kindly ****** off.

[Geneaux486]

wantedman dan wrote...

Doctor_Jackstraw wrote...

Yes it does because shepard IS broken when they realise theres nothing left they can do.


how is this...hard to understand?  Also sweet "dodge" there.

It makes narrative sense becuase its the only possible followup to that action other than shepard killing themselves.

you're wrong.  sorry. 

THAT is why the ending fails. NONE of our choices matter.

YOUR Shepard may be broken, but don't you dare impress upon mine the beliefs of yours. I didn't spend over 100 hours of gameplay, gathering allies and resources, only to end as a broken shell.

If you can't handle that, kindly ****** off.

The choices do matter, they all lead up to the construction of the Crucible, the military force that helps get it into place, and Shepard's friends on the ground that help him get into position.  By extension, these choices, alliances, and friendships are what makes the defeat of the Reapers possible.

The ending does not fail.  It's less about Shepard being broken and more about him not being able to control the fabric of reality.  The Crucible is the way forward, so there's nothing to do but use it.  Doesn't invalidate any choices, doesn't invalidate any of the previous struggle.  The entire story has been about Shepard rolling with the punches, taking what he's got to work with and making the most of it.  The Crucible is Shepard's weapon, it's the weapon of the organics, and through it, Shepard seizes the right of all life to self-determinate.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 juin 2012 - 01:20 .

[The Smitchens]

Anuvis13 wrote...

I've posted this before in many topics. It's a glorified Game Over screen. It's a middle finger from BW to those who don't like their crap ending. They didn't make a power point for it. And then they go and say the next cycle STILL used the Crucible. It can't be more obvious. Still its better than R/B/G.

I don't think it is anything of the sorts.  Prior to the EC release people were rallying saying they wanted to be able to reject the choices.  That's exactly what we've got.  The option to reject.  And as per your analogy, in this context aren't all game endings glorified game overs?  I mean... the game is over... and it's bigger than just a game over screen.

[Ryzaki]

@Geneaux486 : Sparing Morinth doesn't result in anything negative happening. You just lose Samara. Same with everything else you've listed. They're simply different ways of playing the game.

Refuse would've been one to if not for the jabs.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 01:20 .

[Geneaux486]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Geneaux486 : Sparing Morinth doesn't result in anything negative happening. You just lose Samara. Same with everything else you've listed. They're simply different ways of playing the game.

Refuse would've been one to if not for the jabs.

What I meant was that from the perspective of the in-game character, they were objectively bad decisions.  Choosing Morinth over Samara means saving a serial killer/mass murderer who has no intention of changing while killing someone who devotes their lives to fighting those who needlesely kill others.  Siding with Anoleis means helping a known criminal kill an honest law enforcement official who had already promised to aid you.  Refusal means needlessly getting everyone killed.  Killing Shiala means killing someone who was simply a good person taken hostage by Sovereign's indoctrinations, after she was no longer a threat.  All of those choices have negative consequences in the context of the fictional world, just not to the player directly (unless they still try to get with Morinth after the suicide mission).

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 juin 2012 - 01:31 .

[IanPolaris]

The Smitchens wrote...

Anuvis13 wrote...

I've posted this before in many topics. It's a glorified Game Over screen. It's a middle finger from BW to those who don't like their crap ending. They didn't make a power point for it. And then they go and say the next cycle STILL used the Crucible. It can't be more obvious. Still its better than R/B/G.

I don't think it is anything of the sorts.  Prior to the EC release people were rallying saying they wanted to be able to reject the choices.  That's exactly what we've got.  The option to reject.  And as per your analogy, in this context aren't all game endings glorified game overs?  I mean... the game is over... and it's bigger than just a game over screen.

That wasn't the big hue and cry though.  While many did ask why Shepard was so passive and why the Starkid couldn't be challenged or even rejected, that wasn't the main complaint.  It was a matter of narrative control  and a matter of lack of meaningful choice  and the EC though an improvement still falls badly short in both areas.  In fract most of us didn't expect a 'reject' option at all (as far as I remember).

-Polaris

[RohanSpartan]

No. It was as it should be. But if you have a high enough EMS and enough War assets, you should be allowed to at least try to win using conventional warfare. Hell, I Absolutely hated the original endings because it was like the Mass Effect universe pulled a Sopranos and basically cut to black without further explanation as to what happens to the galaxy after the Red/Blue/Green ending(s). Yet, I thought the Extended cut was satisfying. Although I still have yet to have seen what happens to Zaeed after "The Choice".

[wantedman dan]

Geneaux486 wrote...

The choices do matter, they all lead up to the construction of the Crucible, the military force that helps get it into place, and Shepard's friends on the ground that help him get into position.  By extension, these choices, alliances, and friendships are what makes the defeat of the Reapers possible.

The ending does not fail.  It's less about Shepard being broken and more about him not being able to control the fabric of reality.  The Crucible is the way forward, so there's nothing to do but use it.  Doesn't invalidate any choices, doesn't invalidate any of the previous struggle.  The entire story has been about Shepard rolling with the punches, taking what he's got to work with and making the most of it.  The Crucible is Shepard's weapon, it's the weapon of the organics, and through it, Shepard seizes the right of all life to self-determinate.

The developers disagree. Walters and Hudson admitted, themselves, that the ending was one final decision--divorced from the rest of the game.

The ending completely falls flat and is completely contradictory of your point of "self-determination." The choice of one man--or woman--affects the very lives of every single organism in the galaxy and those organisms that enjoy sapience are not allowed the privilege of determining for themselves the path forward. It's either/or in this situation--you cannot proclaim self-determination while, in every aspect, violating it.

Furthermore, the very fact that we're forced to use the crucible--despite amassing the fleets of the entire galaxy for one gigantic confrontation--and have no option for even a rallying cry to fight admirably to the death, we are subjected, nay, forced to endure watching Shepard--even in his last moments in character--fall broken and defeated, despite essentially telling the Catalyst to "****** off" with his choices only moments before.

[wantedman dan]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

- It took the entire Alliance fleet to take Sovereign down, while he wasn't fighting back while fighting a Geth armada.

-It took a good chunk of the Qurian fleet to take down the Reaper on Rannoch, while he wasn't fighting back while engaging the entire Geth fleet, although this can be chalked to overkill as well.

-It took the world's biggest Thresher Maw to take down a small Reaper. Overkill, dontchaknow?

-The Hammer team was getting over run on Earth, which took no consideration as to your EMS--the thing you gathered the entire game, y'know?

They listened to the fans while keeping consistency in mind.

Fixed that for you.

[Geneaux486]

wantedman dan wrote...
The developers disagree. Walters and Hudson admitted, themselves, that the ending was one final decision--divorced from the rest of the game.

Which is weird considering the ending is clearly nothing of the sort, especially post EC.  Can you link me to the source of this statement?

The ending completely falls flat and is completely contradictory of your point of "self-determination." The choice of one man--or woman--affects the very lives of every single organism in the galaxy and those organisms that enjoy sapience are not allowed the privilege of determining for themselves the path forward. It's either/or in this situation--you cannot proclaim self-determination while, in every aspect, violating it.

But you're not violating it.  Shepard didn't, couldn't have, gotten to the point of activating the Crucible alone.  He did so with the support of everyone else.  Everyone agreed that the use of the Crucible was necesarry, and they trusted Shepard to get it done.  Shepard does the only thing he can do in the end, to save everyone, ever the hero, and yes, by defeating the Reapers he does give control of the future back to the organics.  This is further proven in the EC ending cinematics.  Doesn't fall flat, doesn't contradict anything.

Furthermore, the very fact that we're forced to use the crucible--despite amassing the fleets of the entire galaxy for one gigantic confrontation--and have no option for even a rallying cry to fight admirably to the death, we are subjected, nay, forced to endure watching Shepard--even in his last moments in character--fall broken and defeated, despite essentially telling the Catalyst to "****** off" with his choices only moments before.

The fleets we amassed were to get the Crucible into place.  The Crucible symbolizes the unity of the entire galaxy, and the sacrifices of the civilizations from countless cycles before, all coming together to defeat the Reapers.  And they were not the Catalyst's choices.  It wasn't his weapon, he didn't design it, didn't build it, didn't plug it in, couldn't use it.  All he could do was tell you how to use it.

Fixed that for you.

So we're just gonna ignore the fact that a fraction of the Reaper fleet completely steamrolled the Turian military, the strongest military in the galaxy at the time, through brute force alone?  Or the fact that Thessia had time to prepare and still got completely decimated?  The Reapers are a galactic force of nature, a conventional victory may have been possible if years were spent preparing for them, but everyone chose to ignore Shepard's warnings, and in doing so got caught with their pants down.

The Crucible is a tool, just like any number of ships in an armada, advanced weaponry, or anything else.  It still requires the united effort of the galaxy.  Really, the only thing unconventional about using it is that such an undertaking was unprecedented.  Wasn't normal for that many races and opposing ideals to cooperate like that, but Shepard made it possible.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 juin 2012 - 01:52 .

[Danathon]

So essentially the argument here is I don't like losing? I didn't know that all choices had to lead to outcomes that a person liked. Is that really how things work because I think we all need a new ending to everything then.