61 réponses à ce sujet

[thenemesis77]

I have to say as I have  seen alot of post, people tend to take this story at FACE VALUE.

You really think that the Maker is the good  and that the old gods are the bad ones? I find it funny that when people find the Maker not in favor he turns them into Darkspawn, just for going to the Golden CIty, never said what the mages were doing there but if hes such a god, how the hell did they get in in the first damn place?

I do think the Chantry is not so good as they put on to be, it seems to me they want to kill anything that deals with the act of FREEDOM. I see the Chantry and the Maker as the very beings you will have to take out to cure the Darkspawn once and for all, you will have to  cure the Drakspawn to help cure the PC as you had no choice but to be a Grey Worden, I think they did good and had fliped the story to make you think  your doing the good job and in time you will.

I say you have to go to the black city to cure the world of the Makers taint that he put on the world, only with his death will it be cured and the god baby of the PCs and Morrigans will be the new Maker if thats what you want to call it.

Morrigan was right, that she wanted the world back to what it use to be, before the Maker made such crap of it.

[TenaciousTai]

Man, thats alot of hate there friend!!lol I played the game with my gut instinct.and what i though was right seem to agree with what the maker wanted.Personally I don't trust Morrigan too much.End the end she carried out what Flemeth wanted her to do anyways. Even though Flemeth turned out being a body snatching evil spirit.I saved morrigan from it but she still wanted to bring back the old god that such evil Flemeth wanted. doesn't make any since.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Think of it this way. If there is truly an all powerful entity, do you think he will give a damn about what you think is "good"? No.

The belief in a divine entity is fundamentally, a belief in might makes right. If the Maker truly defeated the old gods, then he is mightier.

[Squiggles1334]

At its heart, this is a game that's all about perspectives. When it comes to the lore, nothing is explicitly spelled out as canon and fact. BioWare wisely did not come out and say that the Maker is officially objectively good, but rather laid out the legends and lore from many angles and let the player make up his or her own mind about it.

That being said, with much of the game setting being comprised of analogs from our real world, it would not surprise me if a significant number of negative views of the Maker and/or the Chantry were simply reflections of those real life players' attitudes towards organized religion.

At least, that's my guess.

[Nialos]

Essentially, KnightofPhoenix is correct. Good, bad... it doesn't matter. All you need to know is that the Maker has the bigger stick. And if fear of this gigantic stick invokes a sense of 'justice' and tips the balance towards 'good deeds', then so be it. We're free to choose our belief, and the game offers plenty to support both sides.

Frankly, I'm scared of the stick.

Edit: The above poster speaks with wisdom.

Modifié par Nialos, 15 décembre 2009 - 02:37 .

[LaztRezort]

Nialos wrote...

Essentially, KnightofPhoenix is correct. Good, bad... it doesn't matter. All you need to know is that the Maker has the bigger stick. And if fear of this gigantic stick invokes a sense of 'justice' and tips the balance towards 'good deeds', then so be it. We're free to choose our belief, and the game offers plenty to support both sides.

Frankly, I'm scared of the stick.

I'm reminded of Ash from Evil Dead:  "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun."

Anyhow, the real life analogue of this is called Pascals Wager

[Squiggles1334]

thenemesis77 wrote...
never said what the mages were doing there but if hes such a god, how the hell did they get in in the first damn place?

Blood magic, I believe. Lots and lots of blood magic.

[AiTenshi1]

Personally, I prefer polytheistic, animistic philosophies, and I wish Bioware and other companies would stop using the tired masculine, monotheistic philosophy. Morrigan rightly poo-poos this approach during many dialogue sequences, thank goodness.



I think we have to keep in mind that the information about the darkspawn, Blight, and all related info is recited by the Chantry. No one knows the facts, per se, just as in real life. That's also one of Morrigan's points regarding faith, although I feel that she's a bit too harsh about only accepting what she is able to perceive as "real."



Let's also recall that the Chantry itself has been split on how to conduct its affairs. Not everyone in the Chantry or who generally claims to follow "the Maker" actually takes things too seriously, or literally has faith in the teachings. Even Wynne and Leliana question some of the statements or justifications for certain actions and activities.



In any event, ethical concepts such as "good" or "evil" are very subjective, not objective. This is one area that gaming media, especially in Western countries, continues to fail to address properly, at least in my view. For all that DA: O is touted as offering "ethically grey" events and choices, I have found very little that is truly grey, or that offers the view that many followers of "evil" happen to view themselves as doing good while viewing the "good" followers as the actual evil parties. In particular, I find the general reward system and approval rating to be poorly implemented in this regard, or at least more poorly than is possible, because you really need to try to get party members to approve to get bonuses on their abilities. I just don't find the writing of characters and events to be convincing, although I think Bioware does a very good job with creating lore and overall background history. That's just my own criticism, of course; I just happen to find character and story writing from many works from Japan to offer many more conflicted characters and "grey" philosophies, choices, and events.

[Nialos]

LaztRezort wrote...

Nialos wrote...

Essentially, KnightofPhoenix is correct. Good, bad... it doesn't matter. All you need to know is that the Maker has the bigger stick. And if fear of this gigantic stick invokes a sense of 'justice' and tips the balance towards 'good deeds', then so be it. We're free to choose our belief, and the game offers plenty to support both sides.

Frankly, I'm scared of the stick.

I'm reminded of Ash from Evil Dead:  "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun."

Anyhow, the real life analogue of this is called Pascals Wager

Huh. So that's where I got it from (just finished watching the first movie). And thank you for linking that. Made for a fine bit of reading.

Anyway, there are reasons to support both good and evil here. On one hand, he created life (again) and perfected the process (kind of). People evolved beyond their fade counterparts. Though there was suffering and death, true thought and creativity could prosper.

On the other hand, he cast down his children for... doing just that. Being themselves. To add insult to injury as a punishment, he created the Darkspawn which lead to the Blight. So the question about whether or not he's good or evil is a loaded question. Really, he's just like us. Flawed.

But, of course, with a giant stick that creates miracles.

[cylriasilver]

I think you’re being a bit jaded with this. The Maker didn’t turn those mages into darkspawn, their sins did (according to the story). Basically they did something bad and it had bad consequences.



To look at the Maker as good or bad in the light you’ve cast would be the same as calling a parent bad because they punished their child, or make the kid do things for itself. Yea as individual acts those would sound cruel if described out of context, but no one’s going to hang out with a completely spoiled grown man who’s still in diapers.



Actions have consequences, if the Maker made it any differently, then that would have been cruel to all the humans, elves, and dwarves.



As for the Chantry, I don’t think they are evil, not as a whole. Are there evil people in some positions of power in the Chanty? Almost certainly; The Chantry represents a controlling agent for humanity in the game. Things like law, tradition, and order keep us from complete anarchy, but become totalitarian if it grows too strong.



The apostates do symbolize freedom, but remember Flemeth, the most powerful apostate we meet, kills her own daughters to maintain immortality (if you believe Morrigan than you believe this to be true). That level disconnect from the rules of society is definitely evil.



Thus we have the conflict so carefully designed by Bioware. On one side you have the threat of tyranny and anarchy on the other. It’s the makings of a great epic I suppose.

[Riot Inducer]

My opinion; the Maker is Fen'Harel, the trickster god, he duped all the other gods out of their power and used Andraste to try and get everyone to follow him. The Maker didn't make anything other than possibly the darkspawn.

[InvaderErl]

I expect some kind of twist where we find out the Maker is bad and has organized all of this. I'm betting we get to hit the Black City in the sequel.

[Taleroth]

A believe in divinity is not a belief in might makes right. If there exists no right of man respected by the divine, then there is no ground for mutual respect. Including respect for might.

What is all powerful about a Maker that needs a Blight? If the Blight is his punishment, than man's defiance of that punishment is defiance of him. If man succeeds in defiance then it is weakness in him. If he has weakness, he can be beaten.

Can you call good any being that creates the Blight? Can you call the Archdemon good? The Darkspawn? Should they not, as his direct creations, reflect upon him?

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 décembre 2009 - 02:57 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

If there was any proof the Maker actually existed, then I'd think him a right ass. But, as in the case of real world religion, there is no concrete proof of his existance, or non-existance. It all comes down to faith in the end.



Andraste was real, as there is historical evidence of her life and deeds, plus her ashes. However, just because she was real does not make the Maker real. She might have believed she was the Bride of the Maker, but again, that's a matter of perspective and faith.



I see the Chantry as the epitome of organized, dogmatic religion that blindly marches on with the sword of their faith, willing to do anything, good or bad, to force that faith everywhere. They attacked and destroyed the Dalish Elf-lands once simply because the elves didn't feel like giving up their own gods. They raise templars and get them hooked on dope, and control the Lyrium trade, giving them a very worrying control over magic, since they seem more interested in chaining down and badgering mages into submission than actually trying to promote positive use and awareness of magic.



But until you actually prove a Maker exists, then I can't say he's good or bad.

[Curlain]

I don't expect that anything definite is ever going to be revealled on the Maker or the Elven gods, one of the points in DA is it makes religions faith based (there is some evidence that people of a various faith to look to and say, 'that confirms it', like the Ashes, but another person could say, 'nah it's the lyrium vein that could be causing that effect') and not due to actual beings appearing or giving out powers and obviously confirming their existance. If further expansions/sequels definitely showed the Maker or anyone (or for that matter outright disproved said deity) it would destroy the faith based concept behind the religions in DA. And I personally think it would be a bad thing, I like D&D gods and such, but it's a breath of fresh air not to have them here, and I think the faith based concept to faith aids in RPing and immersion immensly. So while I hope the Black City, and the Magisters are explored more, I do hope the keep the matter about the gods as being ambgiious and about people's perspectives, so that you cannot ever be certain either way, and have to have your PC's make their own views on things

[LaztRezort]

Taleroth wrote...

What is all powerful about a Maker that needs a Blight? If the Blight is his punishment, than man's defiance of that punishment is defiance of him. If man succeeds in defiance then it is weakness in him. If he has weakness, he can be beaten.

Unless you use the age-old excuse explanation that it is the struggle that is good, the atonement for mankind's sin.  Basically, what has been said:  The Maker is ultimate in wisdom, and he has a plan for everything, whether the puny mortals see it or not.  Presumably, mortals will have to just wait and see until the end of the world for an explanation -- in the meantime, excercise that little (some might say insidious, some might say virtuous) thing called "faith."

[SarEnyaDor]

All I know is that Tevinter statue in the mage's basement said the Maker was coming home to light the hearth fires soon and I'm scared.

[Nialos]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

All I know is that Tevinter statue in the mage's basement said the Maker was coming home to light the hearth fires soon and I'm scared.

Depends on the definition of 'soon' to that statue. Soon to it might be hundreds of years.

[LaztRezort]

Curlain wrote...

I don't expect that anything definite is ever going to be revealled on the Maker or the Elven gods, one of the points in DA is it makes religions faith based (there is some evidence that people of a various faith to look to and say, 'that confirms it', like the Ashes, but another person could say, 'nah it's the lyrium vein that could be causing that effect') and not due to actual beings appearing or giving out powers and obviously confirming their existance. If further expansions/sequels definitely showed the Maker or anyone (or for that matter outright disproved said deity) it would destroy the faith based concept behind the religions in DA. And I personally think it would be a bad thing, I like D&D gods and such, but it's a breath of fresh air not to have them here, and I think the faith based concept to faith aids in RPing and immersion immensly. So while I hope the Black City, and the Magisters are explored more, I do hope the keep the matter about the gods as being ambgiious and about people's perspectives, so that you cannot ever be certain either way, and have to have your PC's make their own views on things

I agree with this.  I love the ambiguity and faith aspects they put in here.

I also think that BW knows they would be walking a very dangerous line with audiences if they suddenly revealed that the Maker/chantry was all just a great scam -- due to the parallels (real or perceived) with RL religions.

[bobsmyuncle]

AiTenshi1 wrote...

Personally, I prefer polytheistic, animistic philosophies, and I wish Bioware and other companies would stop using the tired masculine, monotheistic philosophy. Morrigan rightly poo-poos this approach during many dialogue sequences, thank goodness.

If it makes you feel any better, there are plenty of hints in game that the Chantry's dogma is a huge pile of poo. I personally can't decide if I like the theory that Andraste was a mage and the Maker was a benevolent fade spirit, or the theory that the Maker is really the elven trickster god Fen'Harel and when he "gathers" souls to himself after death it's cause he eats them.

I think the Maker is a huge jerk even if you take the Chantry's teachings at face value. He lost worship to the Old Gods, so instead of being more awesome he decides to pout and go home. He comes back for a girl with a good singing voice, lets her die, and sulks off once again. Now he needs everyone to join hands and sing how great he is in order to coax him back to the world to do... the same old nothing he's always done?

My first playthrough was a Chantry hating mage and it's been hard to shake the attitude :innocent:

[SarEnyaDor]

Too true, what's a hundred or even a thousand years to someone doomed to live forever inside of stone? It's all relative.

[Squiggles1334]

Curlain wrote...

I don't expect that anything definite is ever going to be revealled on the Maker or the Elven gods, one of the points in DA is it makes religions faith based (there is some evidence that people of a various faith to look to and say, 'that confirms it', like the Ashes, but another person could say, 'nah it's the lyrium vein that could be causing that effect') and not due to actual beings appearing or giving out powers and obviously confirming their existance. If further expansions/sequels definitely showed the Maker or anyone (or for that matter outright disproved said deity) it would destroy the faith based concept behind the religions in DA. And I personally think it would be a bad thing, I like D&D gods and such, but it's a breath of fresh air not to have them here, and I think the faith based concept to faith aids in RPing and immersion immensly. So while I hope the Black City, and the Magisters are explored more, I do hope the keep the matter about the gods as being ambgiious and about people's perspectives, so that you cannot ever be certain either way, and have to have your PC's make their own views on things

This is a Good Post™ and I concur with these sentiments wholeheartedly. BioWare did a good job not taking any official stance on what is fact and what is fiction in Dragon Age lore, instead filtering it through different sources and perspectives to allow the player to come to his or her own conclusion, thus increasing role-playing potential.

High-five dude

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Honestly, I find the Chantry to be nothing but BS. Most likely history distorted or misunderstood overtime to become what it is today.



Especially seeing how violent barbarians formed the religion.



At the same time I also doubt the Elven religion, as long as the "divinity" of the High Dragons. There probably is indeed a god or a group of gods, but none of those religions seem to be anywhere near closer to the truth than another.

[Taleroth]

LaztRezort wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

What is all powerful about a Maker that needs a Blight? If the Blight is his punishment, than man's defiance of that punishment is defiance of him. If man succeeds in defiance then it is weakness in him. If he has weakness, he can be beaten.

Unless you use the age-old excuse explanation that it is the struggle that is good, the atonement for mankind's sin.  Basically, what has been said:  The Maker is ultimate in wisdom, and he has a plan for everything, whether the puny mortals see it or not.  Presumably, mortals will have to just wait and see until the end of the world for an explanation -- in the meantime, excercise that little (some might say insidious, some might say virtuous) thing called "faith."

There is no wisdom to be found in inflicting terror and death upon people.

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:22 .

[westiex9]

The Chantry and the maker is both good and bad depending on which side of the theological fence you happen to be sitting on. From the view of an elf wanderer for example the chantry religion and its maker likely represent intolerance and oppression at its worst but that doesnt stop a lot of People having faith in the maker and living decent lives in his name. The great thing about bioware is that they managed to show many differant perspectives on on the same subject, you meet some real good people and some bad who worship the maker all interesting.



But as for the maker himself does he even have a moral stance? he is a creator god not a person and thus his actions and ideas are not really within the boundries of Human attempts to order the universe with good or evil.