61 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...
There is no wisdom to be found in inflicting terror and death upon people.

No wisdom to be found by you. If there is a divine entity much superior to yourself, then it might find such wisdom that your inferior intellect cannot grasp.

[LaztRezort]

Taleroth wrote...

There is no wisdom to be found in inflicting terror and death upon people.

But if there is indeed terror and death, people will seek justification for it.  It's comforting, and softens the blow, to believe that there is a higher purpose to things beyond their control.

[bobsmyuncle]

Taleroth wrote...

There is no wisdom to be found in inflicting terror and death upon people.

What is wisdom? For that matter, what is good?

I'm not trying to be a smartass. These concepts are both human ideas and are subjective according to individual societies and sometimes to individual human beings. I agree with you that it is evil and wrong to unleash monsters on people, but I accept that my notions of right behavior may not be aligned with the Maker's.

Which is why you'll never catch my mage attending Chantry. Suck it, templars!

[Taleroth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
There is no wisdom to be found in inflicting terror and death upon people.

No wisdom to be found by you. If there is a divine entity much superior to yourself, then it might find such wisdom that your inferior intellect cannot grasp.

Your belief about divinity sure seems like a classic opinion of nobility.

No wisdom to be found by anyone.  It's a complete lack of respect for the rights and dignity of other beings.  Purposefully enacted.  If deprivation of life, humanity, dignity, and happiness are wise, then surely we could not be faulted for doing the same to each other.

The notion that such could ever be wise is contemptuous.

bobsmyuncle wrote...

my notions of right behavior may not be aligned with the Maker's.

Who cares if it's aligned with the Maker?  Who cares if it's subjective?  If someone, anyone, should declare that it is immoral for you to live, breathe, and be free, does that change your desire to do these things?  Does that mean you shouldn't fight for them?  Does that mean these things are not to be respected by you?  That you should allow others to deprive them from you without protest?

Yes, what is right, moral, and wise is subjective.  But even as subjective it is important to each of us to stand up for the very things we each choose.

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:45 .

[Maria Caliban]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

...The belief in a divine entity is fundamentally, a belief in might makes right...

I can just imagine the huge train wreck of logic behind this.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
There is no wisdom to be found in inflicting terror and death upon people.

No wisdom to be found by you. If there is a divine entity much superior to yourself, then it might find such wisdom that your inferior intellect cannot grasp.

Your belief about divinity sure seems like a classic opinion of nobility.

No wisdom to be found by anyone.  It's a complete lack of respect for the rights and dignity of other beings.  Purposefully enacted.  If deprivation of life, humanity, dignity, and happiness are wise, then surely we could not be faulted for doing the same to each other.

The notion that such could ever be wise is contemptuous.

I fail to see how you can impose your own beliefs on an entity that, if it exists, is much superior to you in every way possible.

I didn't say that there is no wisdom to be found by anyone. I am saying that it's relative. What you think is unwise might be considered wise by a human being that is your equal, let alone by an entity much superior to yourself that holds a much different perspective. A being that doesn't have to respect you really.
 
And yes, politically, it is sometimes wise to kill and frigthen. One only needs to study history to see this truth.

[LaztRezort]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I can just imagine the huge train wreck of logic behind this.

Logic has no place in the Chantry!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maria Caliban wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

...The belief in a divine entity is fundamentally, a belief in might makes right...

I can just imagine the huge train wreck of logic behind this.

Why?
All the religions I know of are based upon the idea that you worship an entity much more powerful than you and do what he / she / it asks you to do.

The Abrahamic conception is the epitom of this, as it's the belief in the perfect, eternal, unique allmighty God that has no equals.

[Taleroth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I fail to see how you can impose your own beliefs on an entity that, if it exists, is much superior to you in every way possible.

Because I do not bow to Pharoes.  I do not bow to Kings.  These are men who believe they are superior to me in every way possible, as well.  Ordained by deities or gods themselves.  I mean that somewhat figuratively, a bow is a good way of showing respect, but that doesn't mean I'd declare them my better.

Why should I impose my belief on a superior entity?  Because he chooses to impose his belief that he is superior.

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:47 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I fail to see how you can impose your own beliefs on an entity that, if it exists, is much superior to you in every way possible.

Because I do not bow to Pharoes.  I do not bow to Kings.  These are men who believe they are superior to me in every way possible, as well.  Ordained by deities or gods themselves.  I mean that somewhat figuratively, a bow is a good way of showing respect, but that doesn't mean I'd declare them my better.

Why should I impose my belief on a superior entity?  Because he chooses to impose his belief that he is superior.

I am not talking about men. I am talking about a divine entity. If it exists. Of course you can always claim that you will still resist this divine entity, even if you believe it exists, but at the end you will be punished by he / she/ it. Once again, that's if such an entity exists.   

And if there is such an entity that creates life and can destroy it just as easily, then it's pretty clear it is superior to you in every way.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:51 .

[Squiggles1334]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I didn't say that there is no wisdom to be found by anyone. I am saying that it's relative. What you think is unwise might be considered wise by a human being that is your equal, let alone by an entity much superior to yourself that holds a much different perspective. A being that doesn't have to respect you really.

And yes, politically, it is sometimes wise to kill and frigthen. One only needs to study history to see this truth.

So you articulate for a bit that wisdom is relative and that those in stations above us need not respect our opinions and perspectives on what's right and wrong, then follow that up with a statement on what is supposed to be objectively wise based on your perspective of history.

Rad. Carry on bro.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Squiggles1334 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I didn't say that there is no wisdom to be found by anyone. I am saying that it's relative. What you think is unwise might be considered wise by a human being that is your equal, let alone by an entity much superior to yourself that holds a much different perspective. A being that doesn't have to respect you really.

And yes, politically, it is sometimes wise to kill and frigthen. One only needs to study history to see this truth.

So you articulate for a bit that wisdom is relative and that those in stations above us need not respect our opinions and perspectives on what's right and wrong, then follow that up with a statement on what is supposed to be objectively wise based on your perspective of history.

Rad. Carry on bro.

Right, I think I worded it wrong.

What I meant to say is that I personally believe that there is wisdom in killing sometimes and I would use history to justify my position. But I can imagine a different perspective that, while not denying historical facts, would still consider it unwise.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:00 .

[Taleroth]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not talking about men. I am talking about a divine entity. If it exists. Of course you can always claim that you will still resist this divine entity, even if you believe it exists, but at the end you will be punished by he / she/ it. Once again, that's if such an entity exists.   

And if there is such an entity that creates life and can destroy it just as easily, then it's pretty clear it is superior to you in every way.

Pharoes were no mere men.  So it was believed.

I am a man.  I can love others.  I can be merciful.  I can show respect the life of men.  I can respect the dignity of others.  I can forgive.  I can feel joy.  I can be terrified.  I can do all of these things. 

And even I can create and destroy.  It is the rest of these things, it is preference for kindness and respect that can make man great.  Any being, divine or mundane, that fails to do so is clearly inferior.

Modifié par Taleroth, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:05 .

[LaztRezort]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

What I meant to say is that I personally believe that there is wisdom in killing sometimes and I would use history to justify my position. But I can imagine a different perspective that, while not denying historical facts, would still consider it unwise.

As in "the end justifies the means"?

Nowadays, this ideology is often considered unwise at best, more often just evil.

An all-knowing intelligence has the luxury of getting a free pass around this one:  his endgame always justifies the means, no matter how ugly they may be.

[kormesios]

"The Maker" has all the doubts and uncertainties of real religion, plus a couple more. I quite like the set up.



Some questions I think a Ferelden skeptic could legitimately ask:



Is the "Maker" real?

If he is real, is he really the creator god who made everything?

If he is (or isn't) the creator, does he actually have anything to do with our spirits and the fade when he dies?

Do the other old or elven gods exist?

If they exist, how do they relate to the maker? Could they (are they) struggling against him?

Has the maker really turned his back on man? Does he even care about blasphemers anymore, or would worshiping another god actually make more sense?

Did Andraste have anything to do with the Maker?

Does the Chantry maintain Andraste's true heritage?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Taleroth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not talking about men. I am talking about a divine entity. If it exists. Of course you can always claim that you will still resist this divine entity, even if you believe it exists, but at the end you will be punished by he / she/ it. Once again, that's if such an entity exists.   

And if there is such an entity that creates life and can destroy it just as easily, then it's pretty clear it is superior to you in every way.

Pharoes were no mere men.  So it was believed.

I am a man.  I can love others.  I can be merciful.  I can show respect the life of men.  I can respect the dignity of others.  I can forgive.  I can feel joy.  I can be terrified.  I can do all of these things. 

And even I can create and destroy.  It is the rest of these things, it is preference for kindness and respect that can make man great.  Any being, divine or mundane, that fails to do so is clearly inferior.

I can prove that the Pharoah is a man by killing him.

lol Well if there is an afterlife and if there is a God, I would love to see you lecturing him that way.

@ laztrezort
Yes, I do believe in the ends (and the results) justifying the means. And yes I am aware that people find that evil and I couldn't care less.

As for a divinity, obviously the end always justifies the means to it. In fact, it doesn't even need to justify anything.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:22 .

[kormesios]

KnightOfPhoenix, you do seem to assuming that "divine entity" means the same thing as an omnipotent being.

In many (most?) early religious traditions, this was *not* true. Gods could be fooled, were fallible, could be killed, could be less moral than a human, and even equalled by mortals in direct competition. They wouldn't necessarily bother punishing anyone in the afterlife. Greek and Norse myths both have many such examples, I can list some if you doubt them.

Not that this made challenging a god directly a good idea.

[Creature 1]

Maria Caliban wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

...The belief in a divine entity is fundamentally, a belief in might makes right...

I can just imagine the huge train wreck of logic behind this.

Really?  Do the gods want what is good, or is what the gods want good by definition?  Most people would say the first, but take a closer look and it's always the second.  Is genocide evil, or good?  The opinion of one specific major global religion on this has changed at various time points.  Currently they would say it is evil, but check the scriptures and genocide was once called good.  Did the inherent nature of good and evil change?  No, the whim of that deity did.  So why was it then good to eradicate an entire race of people?  Because God said so--in essence, might makes right.  

I can't imagine my characters will ever be great fans of the Chantry.  I don't think it would be much fun playing a character with so little independence as to think the Chantry was everything its followers claim.  

[VernRyan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Taleroth wrote...
There is no wisdom to be found in inflicting terror and death upon people.

No wisdom to be found by you. If there is a divine entity much superior to yourself, then it might find such wisdom that your inferior intellect cannot grasp.

Except his idea of punishment for the nine who committed an evil act to turn around and punish all the other mortal beings who hadn't done anything wrong.  Doesnt sound like a very just punishment and of course if he created mankind and therefore the mages and set in them the desire to pursue the magic that led them to the golden city then it sounds like he's set them up to fail from the beginning and not much free will was involved.

[KnightofPhoenix]

kormesios wrote...

KnightOfPhoenix, you do seem to assuming that "divine entity" means the same thing as an omnipotent being.
In many (most?) early religious traditions, this was *not* true. Gods could be fooled, were fallible, could be killed, could be less moral than a human, and even equalled by mortals in direct competition. They wouldn't necessarily bother punishing anyone in the afterlife. Greek and Norse myths both have many such examples, I can list some if you doubt them.
Not that this made challenging a god directly a good idea.

I am assuming it could be either, though obviously the omnipotent Abrahamic God would be slightly different. IF you believe he exists, then you really don't want to mess with him.

[Faerell Gustani]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

...The belief in a divine entity is fundamentally, a belief in might makes right...

Oooh.  I like that quote.  I'm going to have to put that one up on facebook.

A corollary to that one I like to say is that "there is no such thing as altruism because all choices are inherently selfish."

Modifié par Faerell Gustani, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:48 .

[cylriasilver]

From the wiki:

But all that stands tall must eventually fall. Perhaps they foresaw their ruin, or perhaps their pride knew no bounds, but whatever the reason, the magisters dared to open a magical portal into the Golden City at the heart of the Fade. They sought to usurp the Maker's throne, long left unattended in the Golden City after the Maker turned his back on his creations. They would storm heaven itself with their power and become as gods.
 
This is what the Chantry, in its oft-exercised tendency to understate, refers to as the second sin.
 
According to most versions of the tale, the magisters did indeed reach the Golden City and walked into the home of the Maker, where no living being before them had dared, or been able, to tread. But humanity is not meant to walk in heaven. The magisters were wicked with pride and other sins, and their presence tainted the Golden City. What once was a perfect, holy citadel became a twisted home of darkness and nightmares. The magisters were expelled back through their gateway and cursed for their treachery. As the Golden City had been tainted, so were the magisters twisted and transformed into things of darkness--the very first of the darkspawn. The Golden City, once a shining beacon at the heart of the Fade, became the Black City, a reminder of all that man's pride has cost."

 
Read that very carefully. Notice that according to the tale (and we as people looking at a fictional world have nothing else to go on) the maker wasn’t even present when the darkspawn were created. All we know is their actions resulted in the curse.
 
Some are trying to look at the Maker’s morality as a human, but you have to look at its morality from the viewpoint of a creator. This is a very important distinction.
 
If the races of the DA:O world could have been created without the ability to perform evil, but without that they wouldn’t really be sentient. They’d basically be organic robots with no more will than the computer you’re using to read this.
 
So ask yourself this, if you had that power of creation, would the beings you put together have the same opportunities to overcome hardships that humanity has had? Would you guide their every move, denying them basic freedoms to choose but keeping their world peaceful?

[Maria Caliban]

Creature 1 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

...The belief in a divine entity is fundamentally, a belief in might makes right...

I can just imagine the huge train wreck of logic behind this.

Do the gods want what is good, or is what the gods want good by definition? Most people would say the first...

First, you ask me a question. Then you answer the question FOR ME based on a claim of what 'most people' would say (though you provide no evidence this is true) and proceed to lecture me that a belief YOU MADE UP is not correct.

Love it.

Are you aware that your post is a steaming pile of BS, or are you ignorant of it? Most people would say the first…

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 15 décembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[Xyan]

cylriasilver wrote...
 
If the races of the DA:O world could have been created without the ability to perform evil, but without that they wouldn’t really be sentient. They’d basically be organic robots with no more will than the computer you’re using to read this.
 
So ask yourself this, if you had that power of creation, would the beings you put together have the same opportunities to overcome hardships that humanity has had? Would you guide their every move, denying them basic freedoms to choose but keeping their world peaceful?

This topic will never have a conclusion. We know that. But debating about it kills time and sometimes brings entertainment.

The good folks once said that if something in a game cannot be implemented correctly, for example.. cloak, then it be better to do without.

Inheriting that attitude, If I had that power of creation, but I am unable to create a world where all is happy, I choose not to create.

[Lotion Soronarr]

thenemesis77 wrote...

I have to say as I have  seen alot of post, people tend to take this story at FACE VALUE.

You really think that the Maker is the good  and that the old gods are the bad ones? I find it funny that when people find the Maker not in favor he turns them into Darkspawn, just for going to the Golden CIty, never said what the mages were doing there but if hes such a god, how the hell did they get in in the first damn place?

I do think the Chantry is not so good as they put on to be, it seems to me they want to kill anything that deals with the act of FREEDOM. I see the Chantry and the Maker as the very beings you will have to take out to cure the Darkspawn once and for all, you will have to  cure the Drakspawn to help cure the PC as you had no choice but to be a Grey Worden, I think they did good and had fliped the story to make you think  your doing the good job and in time you will.

I say you have to go to the black city to cure the world of the Makers taint that he put on the world, only with his death will it be cured and the god baby of the PCs and Morrigans will be the new Maker if thats what you want to call it.

Morrigan was right, that she wanted the world back to what it use to be, before the Maker made such crap of it.

Meh.
Taking that story at face value is so stupid. What makes you think the whole events are a literal retelling? Remeber what Wynne said - it might be an allegory. It doesn't even have to correct.
It's like the creaton part of the Bible.

So, no. You can't really get any usefull info on the nature of the maker from that darkspawn story.

Also, your delusional story of grandour, storming the heaving and setting a new god on the throne - it makes me giggle. If the Maker does exist, then you, Morrigan and the Old Gods are like mere flies. This isn't D&D where mortals regulary "acened" to some crappy version fo goodhood by hacking and slashing enough. Thank heavens.