61 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Squiggles1334 wrote...
Blood magic, I believe. Lots and lots of blood magic.

I belive is was 2/3rds of all lyrium in Tevinter (when it was at the peek of it's pwoer), and the blood (life force) of thousands of slaves with all the magisters (and probably lesser magies) casting the spell together. That's an insane amount of power
And the Maker still kicked them out.

So yea...your dreams of usurping the Maker...they'll stay just that.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AiTenshi1 wrote...
In any event, ethical concepts such as "good" or "evil" are very subjective, not objective. This is one area that gaming media, especially in Western countries, continues to fail to address properly, at least in my view. For all that DA: O is touted as offering "ethically grey" events and choices, I have found very little that is truly grey, or that offers the view that many followers of "evil" happen to view themselves as doing good while viewing the "good" followers as the actual evil parties. In particular, I find the general reward system and approval rating to be poorly implemented in this regard, or at least more poorly than is possible, because you really need to try to get party members to approve to get bonuses on their abilities. I just don't find the writing of characters and events to be convincing, although I think Bioware does a very good job with creating lore and overall background history. That's just my own criticism, of course; I just happen to find character and story writing from many works from Japan to offer many more conflicted characters and "grey" philosophies, choices, and events.

No....must...resist...urge...to put a smackdown on everything...

I do have to aks - which works from Japan? Which games. Please dont'say Final Fantasy, cause that is a piece of garbage I wouldn't unleash even on my worst enemy.

[hibri2]

i totally agree with morrigan when she questions leiliana about the maker... it was so satisfying to discover that morrigan is an atheist!

about the maker, i think he is another of the judeo-christian mythological beasts just like his other three "real life" brothers, he is not good, not bad... just a moron with an attitude. i (and my game alter egos) dislike the chantry dogma and will take dialog options accordingly.

from the game pantheon i feel more attracted to the elf gods and to morrigan nihilism.   the paragons reminds me a more flashy version of the asian ancestors worship which is nice.

Modifié par hibri2, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:03 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Taleroth wrote...
And even I can create and destroy.  It is the rest of these things, it is preference for kindness and respect that can make man great.  Any being, divine or mundane, that fails to do so is clearly inferior.

*The maker snaps his fingers and Taleroth suddenly starts yelling: "I'm a moron! Praise the Maker!"
He then proceeds to slap himself sensless and is then erased from existance. He never was.*

Not bad for an inferior being, eh?

***

Now, the thing with the Maker (and The God) is that he creted humans with free will. Free will is a double edged blade that for all it's benefits has a very dark side too. Free will is both a gift and a curse, depending on how you use it. And pretty much all good and bad things are the product of such free will.
It would be wise to not limit oneself to the material when judging such things....especially considering the afterlife.

[kormesios]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

kormesios wrote...

KnightOfPhoenix, you do seem to assuming that "divine entity" means the same thing as an omnipotent being.
In many (most?) early religious traditions, this was *not* true. Gods could be fooled, were fallible, could be killed, could be less moral than a human, and even equalled by mortals in direct competition. They wouldn't necessarily bother punishing anyone in the afterlife. Greek and Norse myths both have many such examples, I can list some if you doubt them.
Not that this made challenging a god directly a good idea.

I am assuming it could be either, though obviously the omnipotent Abrahamic God would be slightly different. IF you believe he exists, then you really don't want to mess with him.

Most of your statements assume omnipotent, indestructible gods, of incomparable superiority . . .

I can prove that the Pharoah is a man by killing him.

All the religions I know of are based upon the idea that you worship an
entity much more powerful than you and do what he / she / it asks you
to do.

And if there is such an entity that creates life and can destroy it
just as easily, then it's pretty clear it is superior to you in every
way.

Some gods can be/have been killed, bargained with, defeated in contests of skill, outsmarted, or demonstrate themselves morally inferior to mortals.  This is by the accounts of those who believed in them.

[Lotion Soronarr]

kormesios wrote...
Some gods can be/have been killed, bargained with, defeated in contests of skill, outsmarted, or demonstrate themselves morally inferior to mortals.  This is by the accounts of those who believed in them.

And those were some ratehr "****ty", ungodly gods. They were very limited in power, in scope and intelect.

[OneBadAssMother]

As a real life "heathen"... at least as our real life equivalent of a Chantry calls us... I have to side with Morrigan in this, though I hate her guts...



That the Chantry is prolly full of s*** =)

[Zenon]

A true deity would stand above human concepts of good and evil. I also think, that much depends on the concept one has of a "god".



The maker in DA:O seems more abstract and distant than the "gods" in Faerun for example, where it seems to be more similar to a Greek Pantheon with legends of strife between those gods using their believers in their battles and competitions against each-other.



I think Bioware did an excellent job how they presented the Chantry. It is a bit similar to Catholic Church with some satirical needle pins where it hurts. That is also one reason, why I like the concept of clerics not wielding any mythical power, but instead cultivating the fear of true magic.



One could say, that the Chantry is man made, Magic is maker made. Which is good or bad depends on the view of the individual.

[AntiChri5]

Riot Inducer wrote...

My opinion; the Maker is Fen'Harel, the trickster god, he duped all the other gods out of their power and used Andraste to try and get everyone to follow him. The Maker didn't make anything other than possibly the darkspawn.

Im inclined to beleive this myself

[Lughsan35]

He made everything. He's in everything. He's to blame for everything. Ultimate power, ultimate responsibility.



Good or Evil, purely a human notion.

[AntiChri5]

Taleroth wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I am not talking about men. I am talking about a divine entity. If it exists. Of course you can always claim that you will still resist this divine entity, even if you believe it exists, but at the end you will be punished by he / she/ it. Once again, that's if such an entity exists.   

And if there is such an entity that creates life and can destroy it just as easily, then it's pretty clear it is superior to you in every way.

Pharoes were no mere men.  So it was believed.

I am a man.  I can love others.  I can be merciful.  I can show respect the life of men.  I can respect the dignity of others.  I can forgive.  I can feel joy.  I can be terrified.  I can do all of these things. 

And even I can create and destroy.  It is the rest of these things, it is preference for kindness and respect that can make man great.  Any being, divine or mundane, that fails to do so is clearly inferior.

Stole the words right out of my mouth

[Dzikv]

You're taking it the DnD way OP. Gods in this game are absent... They don't intervene... Don't act...Or do? Who knows. Either way it not done openly and i love that approach!

From a roleplaying standpoint you can not believe in them and find reason for that... And the other way around which in a DnD world would be absurd... As they can just come "down" and slap you for it.

If i remember correctly in Adnd there is a god of atheists... sheesh.

Modifié par Dzikv, 15 décembre 2009 - 11:35 .