120 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

and why is the Destroy option shooting a tube, which I'm pretty sure it overloads the Crucible

[Mr.House]

AresKeith wrote...

and why is the Destroy option shooting a tube, which I'm pretty sure it overloads the Crucible

Nothing aobut the cruible makes sense, still. Why is there a tube, two joy sticks and a plank to a big beam? The construction of this stuff makes ZERO sense. Where the cruible builders just that dumb?

Worker:Why do we need to add thsi big tube with red lights?
Worker 2:Who cares, just add it.

[Baronesa]

Mr.House wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

and why is the Destroy option shooting a tube, which I'm pretty sure it overloads the Crucible

Nothing aobut the cruible makes sense, still. Why is there a tube, two joy sticks and a plank to a big beam? The construction of this stuff makes ZERO sense. Where the cruible builders just that dumb?

Worker:Why do we need to add thsi big tube with red lights?
Worker 2:Who cares, just add it.

It is even worse... the tube, the joysticks and the plank are part of the Citadel, not part of the Crucible, remember the crucible is floating above your head during the final part of the game.... so the 3 means of activating the crucible are part of the citadel...

[AlanC9]

Baronesa wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
Thing is... the red wave is smart enough to not affect any of the ship systems or even the VI and seems to only target "reaper code" but... how can it detect said code on a turned off machine?

Where does this "Reaper code" idea come from? In my game the wave kills "synthetic life".

It has come out on other debates due to the fact that all known synthetic life use reaper code at the moment of the ending. EDI uses Reaper Code (as stated on ME2), the Geth got the upgrade thanks to Legion... and well Reapers are Reapers...

But still.. if it would target synthetic life... how can a red wave of energy discriminate between a normal computer program and an AI?

Tell me what makes a program "AI" first and I'll give it a shot.

[zovoes]

AlanC9 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
Thing is... the red wave is smart enough to not affect any of the ship systems or even the VI and seems to only target "reaper code" but... how can it detect said code on a turned off machine?

Where does this "Reaper code" idea come from? In my game the wave kills "synthetic life".

well "synthetic life" is just as bad a way of justifying it as "it only goes after reaper code". what is synthetic life anyways? how is it not just a computer that can talk? well for most its the "blue box" thing but the reapers don't use those so if the red beam goes after blue boxs then it would not kill the reapers. also note that the geth don't use them as well. the only way for it to not blow up the ships and the VI that help them is by only going after the geth and EDI because bioware says so. it can't be the reaper code that the geth and EDI use because then we are talking about a beam of light that can think and find the [reaper] code [/reaper] head and kill anything that has it. its a bad and tacked on "consequence" for picking destroy, the EC makes it clear that they wanted you to pick synth as it was made out to be the "good" ending when put up to the other two. thats why they die, people just say "reaper code" because there is nothing that the three share other then that and saying that it only kills AIs and nothing else is dumb as hell (but this is mac we are talking about so yeah).

[AresKeith]

Baronesa wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

and why is the Destroy option shooting a tube, which I'm pretty sure it overloads the Crucible

Nothing aobut the cruible makes sense, still. Why is there a tube, two joy sticks and a plank to a big beam? The construction of this stuff makes ZERO sense. Where the cruible builders just that dumb?

Worker:Why do we need to add thsi big tube with red lights?
Worker 2:Who cares, just add it.

It is even worse... the tube, the joysticks and the plank are part of the Citadel, not part of the Crucible, remember the crucible is floating above your head during the final part of the game.... so the 3 means of activating the crucible are part of the citadel...

and they said the Citadel was built by the Reapers, so that means the Starbrat had the whole thing planned

[hoodaticus]

No. EDI existed as a non-serializable quantum runtime and is dead as dead can be in destroy. Repetition will not duplicate her or the Geth. They were alive. Now they're not.

That is why neither EDI nor Legion can be copied.

Modifié par hoodaticus, 07 août 2012 - 02:55 .

[Dr. Megaverse]

Baronesa wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...Thing is... the red wave is smart enough to not affect any of the ship systems or even the VI and seems to only target "reaper code" but... how can it detect said code on a turned off machine?

Where does this "Reaper code" idea come from? In my game the wave kills "synthetic life".

It has come out on other debates due to the fact that all known synthetic life use reaper code at the moment of the ending. EDI uses Reaper Code (as stated on ME2), the Geth got the upgrade thanks to Legion... and well Reapers are Reapers...
But still.. if it would target synthetic life... how can a red wave of energy discriminate between a normal computer program and an AI?

What seems likely to me, is that throughout the cycles someone scanned Reaper energy emissions, transmissions, and code processing and incorporated a subsystem designed to target that into the crucible. It is cannon that each race who handled it added to it and some races we're more advanced than others (I.E. the Protheans).  
It makes sense to me that folks who handled the Crucible would have a rather specific definition of "artificial life" in mind. Read: Reapers :-). 
With said subsystem targeting of EDI, the Geth, and the Reapers are all explained, without causing harm to the ships. The weak spot in this theory?  The Mass Relays.  Hmmmmmm.....

[alienatedflea]

weltraumhamster89 wrote...

Pretty much what it says in the title:

Starchild says that the energy from the crucible will affect everthing synthetic (haha why don't all the ships stop functioning btw) and that all synthetics will be destroyed (?), but he also says that all damage (relays etc) can easily be rebuilt (also Hackett says that).

So, when my Normandy crashlanded on the green planet, it flew off from the planet in the end, so they kind of repaired the Normandy pretty fast. Also I think that Joker might actually have escaped the red energy, but of this I am not sure (but if so, why is EDI still dead on the memory wall..) - anyway:

If everthing can be repaired and rebuilt, why not EDI and the Geth? There should be enough Geth lying around everywhere after they have been shut down - and EDI was built from Cerberus and there are many Cerberus ex-scientists on Shep's side, so they could help there.

Also, my Shepard lives in the end (breathe scene), so she is not dead even though she has synthetic parts and the Normandy is flying off the planet probably back to earth... So to me, Destroy now is a happy-ish ending for me simply because I care so much for my character's LI and I am happy that they will be reunited now that the Normandy was able to fly off the planet.

What about you? Especially others who chose destroy?

(P.S:.: I already declared in a few threads why I find Synthesis an abomination, so that is off the table for me.)

You cant rebuild individuality >.<

Modifié par alienatedflea, 07 août 2012 - 03:09 .

[The Heretic of Time]

EDI and the geth can be rebuild, but they won't be the same.

EDI as you know her, is gone.
The geth, as you know them, are gone.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 07 août 2012 - 03:14 .

[The Heretic of Time]

AlanC9 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...
Thing is... the red wave is smart enough to not affect any of the ship systems or even the VI and seems to only target "reaper code" but... how can it detect said code on a turned off machine?

Where does this "Reaper code" idea come from? In my game the wave kills "synthetic life".

It has come out on other debates due to the fact that all known synthetic life use reaper code at the moment of the ending. EDI uses Reaper Code (as stated on ME2), the Geth got the upgrade thanks to Legion... and well Reapers are Reapers...

But still.. if it would target synthetic life... how can a red wave of energy discriminate between a normal computer program and an AI?

Tell me what makes a program "AI" first and I'll give it a shot.

The code and structure. Format also I suppose.

An AI isn't just 1 program though, it's multiple programs working together in a digital neural network.

[Volc19]

The software is gone. You could rebuild the platforms, but it would only be a cheap imatation of what once was.

It would be like buying a new dog after your old dog has died. The new dog can look as similar to the old one as physically possible, but it's still not the same dog.

[Baronesa]

Volc19 wrote...

The software is gone. You could rebuild the platforms, but it would only be a cheap imatation of what once was.

It would be like buying a new dog after your old dog has died. The new dog can look as similar to the old one as physically possible, but it's still not the same dog.

I agree, the software is gone and they can't be replaced, it is stated in the codex.

EDI for example, her blue box is unique, copying her entire self into another blue box would create a completely different personality.


But my previous question remains.

How can the red wave of light discriminate between normal programs and AI? We KNOW that the programs on the ships are not damaged, erased or destroyed... same for the computer equipment.

How can the wave of light  then be so selective that it targets just AI. How can it tell one program from another that belongs to what makes an AI?

And if it is due to EDI and the Geth using Reaper code and the red wave of light targets the Reapers and anything related. My next question is:

Would this affect data stored on a turned off hardware? How could the wave of light scan a  device that currently has no power or is turned off? if that is how it works?

Furthermore... since no other technology is affected then we can assume it only targets software... But what about a geth program on a destroyed or deactivated Geth platform? IF the HD was not affected but the platform is turned off... then moving the HD and the software inside to a working platform would reactivate the Geth, since Geth are complex software lifeforms, able to change platforms, so destroying the platform does not destroy the Geth, unless you physically destroy the place where the data is stored.

Would then be Geth survivors trapped on deactivated platforms scattered on earth?

What if EDI make back up copies of herself and store them on external HD, completely turned off... would the magic software finder of the red light be able to detect it?

Modifié par Baronesa, 07 août 2012 - 12:04 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Baronesa wrote...

How can the red wave of light discriminate between normal programs and AI?

How can a virus scanner on your computer discriminate between normal programs and a virus?

The answer to that question probably is also the answer to your question.


Also, don't try to think too much about it. We all know Mass Effect stopped being sci-fi a long time ago. Don't look surprised when there is a little bit of magic mixed into it. 

How can the wave of light  then be so selective that it targets just AI. How can it tell one program from another that belongs to what makes an AI?

Again, how can a virus scenner be so selective that it targets just virusses? How can it tell one program from another that belongs to what makes a virus?

And if it is due to EDI and the Geth using Reaper code and the red wave of light targets the Reapers and anything related. My next question is:

Would this affect data stored on a turned off hardware? How could the wave of light scan a  device that currently has no power or is turned off? if that is how it works?

An AI can't turn itself off. Turning off an AI is the same as killing it. Once you turn the AI back on it will be a new and different AI with a different "personality". So this question is redundant and doesn't need to be answered.

Furthermore... since no other technology is affected then we can assume it only targets software... But what about a geth program on a destroyed or deactivated Geth platform? IF the HD was not affected but the platform is turned off... then moving the HD and the software inside to a working platform would reactivate the Geth, since Geth are complex software lifeforms, able to change platforms, so destroying the platform does not destroy the Geth, unless you physically destroy the place where the data is stored.

Would then be Geth survivors trapped on deactivated platforms scattered on earth?

Like I said, it is not possible for an AI to be stored on a deactivated platform. Turning off the platform is effectively killing it.

What if EDI make back up copies of herself and store them on external HD, completely turned off... would the magic software finder of the red light be able to detect it?

EDI can't make copies of herself. She could duplicate her code into another quantum blue blox, but the copy would not be EDI, it would be a new AI.

And like I said before, you can't store an AI on a turned off device.

A turned off AI = a dead AI.

[Mims]

Here is my major thing: in neither cut of the ending did bioware give the geth or EDI the dignity of a death scene. Why even mention them dying if it's not even acknowledged? Then they ask us to 'head canon' Shepard's future after the breath scene. Okay! I am fine with that. But I'll head canon that at least EDI can be restored. If bioware didn't really care about her death, why should I?

/note: I actually really enjoyed the ec. This is just one of the things that still bugs me. Seeing a flashback of her during destroy doesn't really cut it when other living people are still in it.

[o Ventus]

The only downside to EDI dying in comparison to the geth is that the geth can be rebuilt, EDI can't because of her bluebox.

I'm still shooting the tube.

[ParaNeuman]

Aren't Geth mostly server collectives. To my knowledge only the platforms would be destroyed, as well as EDIs platform.

[o Ventus]

ParaNeuman wrote...

Aren't Geth mostly server collectives. To my knowledge only the platforms would be destroyed, as well as EDIs platform.

I would guess that the Crucible wave targets the software. Notice how the Reapers' physical shells aren't harmed at all, they just fall over. From this, I would assume that the Crucible targets the Reaper software inside EDI and the geth...

... Which then begs the question: Why do the geth and EDI die? They aren't constructed FROM the Reaper software, it's only a component of them. Realistically, only EDI would sustain significant damage. The geth should more or less just "revert" to how they were before Legion disseminated the code.

Modifié par o Ventus, 07 août 2012 - 12:44 .

[Asch Lavigne]

I can only imagine the rest of the galaxy saying "WTF?! You want to rebuild the Geth after 200 years of fighting!? There's no guarantee they'll be all friendly and your conflict will still be over!"

[Baronesa]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Like I said, it is not possible for an AI to be stored on a deactivated platform. Turning off the platform is effectively killing it.

A turned off AI = a dead AI.

There is no proof of that, actually.

In fact there is a proof to the contrary: Legion

Legion got deactivated and it depends on Shepard's actions to reactivate it in ME2.

The real issue is that if they are turned off, there is no guarantee that they would be turned on later, but the relation being Hardware/software, they not only can be turned off but they can move to different platforms without losing their individuality.

Remember the Geth view the platforms as tools, they are just software. If we coudl take examples from other sci-fi... remember teh episode "Measure of a man" of ST: TNG. Data is turned off during the trial and then turned back on.

IF EDI's blue box is destroyed, then recreating her would be impossible. BUT if the red light only affects software, then the blue box is intact, unharmed... so copying the same information as before onto the blue box would produce the same EDI, providing the data stored was not affected.


Regarding your comment about anti virus, yes that would work, specially if detecting Reaper code. But do consider the AI are just a collection of programs that develop a conciousness. The individual programs that are part of the AI would be akin to our own cells...

And... would the "Anti virus red light" be able to scan turned off devices?

[ParaNeuman]

o Ventus wrote...

ParaNeuman wrote...

Aren't Geth mostly server collectives. To my knowledge only the platforms would be destroyed, as well as EDIs platform.

I would guess that the Crucible wave targets the software. Notice how the Reapers' physical shells aren't harmed at all, they just fall over. From this, I would assume that the Crucible targets the Reaper software inside EDI and the geth...

... Which then begs the question: Why do the geth and EDI die? They aren't constructed FROM the Reaper software, it's only a component of them. Realistically, only EDI would sustain significant damage. The geth should more or less just "revert" to how they were before Legion disseminated the code.

I always thought that the wave fried the internal hardware, or power source of the synthetics, hence why the reapers just fell over. Like a giant EMP or something, atleast that's what I'm hoping for , and what about possible server nodes hid kilometers underneath a planets crust, perhaps they could survive. 

Still doesnt make sence though that Lots of ships managed to "fly" after the battle, considering they're mostly run by software, like Normandys EDI. 

[christrek1982]

the essence of who they where is lost but you can re-build the physically

[The Heretic of Time]

Baronesa wrote...

There is no proof of that, actually.

There is. EDI says it in ME2. She said if you turn her off, you effectively kill her. If you turn her back on, it will be another AI you'll be dealing with, not the same EDI as you're dealing with now.

In fact there is a proof to the contrary: Legion

Legion got deactivated and it depends on Shepard's actions to reactivate it in ME2.

Legion wasn't turned off, he was mearly asleep, similar to an unconsious human I suppose.

The real issue is that if they are turned off, there is no guarantee that they would be turned on later, but the relation being Hardware/software, they not only can be turned off but they can move to different platforms without losing their individuality.

Which is not true, as stated by EDI. You're wrong. Once an AI is turned off, it loses it's personality. When you turn it back on, it will be a different individual.

Remember the Geth view the platforms as tools, they are just software. If we coudl take examples from other sci-fi... remember teh episode "Measure of a man" of ST: TNG. Data is turned off during the trial and then turned back on.

Software that needs to be running, just like your "software" in your brain needs to be running. Once we turn off your brain, you'll be death.

IF EDI's blue box is destroyed, then recreating her would be impossible. BUT if the red light only affects software, then the blue box is intact, unharmed... so copying the same information as before onto the blue box would produce the same EDI, providing the data stored was not affected.

Again, you're wrong. Simply shutting down EDI and restarted her would create a completely different individual. It will NOT be the same EDI, it never will be.

Regarding your comment about anti virus, yes that would work, specially if detecting Reaper code. But do consider the AI are just a collection of programs that develop a conciousness. The individual programs that are part of the AI would be akin to our own cells...

Not true. An AI is more like a neural-network of runtimes that work together in a similar fashion to our brains. The geth, who are really just VI, awoke and became sentient because their geth-network, in which all the geth VI's are linked together, started to act like a brain. The network "woke up" and became similar to an AI.

I'm sure it should be possible to develop a tool that is capable of recognizing the behavior patterns of an AI network and shut it down.

And... would the "Anti virus red light" be able to scan turned off devices?

Possibly. Who knows? It's besides the point really, because a turned off device can't contain an AI. It could contain the elements that are needed to create an AI though.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 07 août 2012 - 01:24 .

[EnvyTB075]

Just headcanon it, numerous logical loopholes allow for it that BioWare doesn't seem intent on delivering ever.

They live because logic, /thread.