84 réponses à ce sujet

[StrangeCat Productions]

Ok I am loving DA and I try and play once a week at most but there are some things I am wondering about...

First in Ultima 7 you could interact with everything it made the world that much more alive, I could grab a paint brush and paint a picture if I wanted in some ones house as the person went about there chores.  In fact the whole town went about there daily routine during the day and night.

I can understand fast travel but wouldn't it be cool to include an area as a large area with out the path?

For instance, roaming in a town, then oustide the town there is a field, forest, whatever, but your still your in the area that is still a town.  This town happens to have two villages that connect or something but it's still the box on the world map that you can fast travel to as Town X.

Creatures.  Great Creatures yea but every battle that pops up just seems like your going from a to b and over again.    Creatures will actually just stand there doing nothing if they don't see you, don't they do something other then stand around.  

Do you really have to have everything that you can grab highlighted in Glitter?  I remember back in Ultima series you had to check everything.  Clues were very subtle (like The Witcher)  you had to read a book in a library on the other side of the world to figure out a clue or answer for something some where else.  The Witcher had this and so did Dagger Fall. 

I think the interaction with the world is a little on the lacking side.  The story is fantastic but the world interection with the characters is little low.  Would have been cool to create a script that makes NPC's do there daily routine like the place is a live.

Dont' get me wrong it's great game, great story, the combat is fantastic!  Playing on hard after the new patch has been quite challenging too.

It's not that I am being nit picky it's just I am comparing games that were over 10 years ago to the major games released now and seeing a sort of backwards game desing in some things.

[cheeseslayersmu]

-1...play oblivion.

Modifié par cheeseslayersmu, 15 décembre 2009 - 02:38 .

[enderandrew]

Ultima VII in many ways the pinnacle of great RPGs. I really miss it.



EA still owns the Ultima franchise. EA also owns a great RPG company in Bioware. They've got this great engine and toolset.



I'd love to see EA make up with Richard Garriot (now that he isn't working for NC Soft anymore). Give them the Dragon Age engine, a team, and let him remake the early Ultima games. The dirty secret of Ultima fans is that Ultima I through III aren't all that consistent or great. He didn't know what he was doing yet.



If he could add the great immersive factors of Ultima VII into the Dragon Age engine, and remake Sosaria, Bioware and EA might resurrect the greatest RPG franchise ever created.



Please, make this so.

[MerinTB]

It's not really backwards. I personally find this kind of argument, the "games 10 years ago did this, we should move forward" to be kind of wrong-headed.



D&D more or less created the idea of stats for characters in a game over 30 years ago, should we no longer have stats for characters?



Innovations in game design or graphics do not mean that all games need to have them. A computer game that represents chess should just represent chess, it doesn't need to be Archon or Battle Chess - though those games are cool, too.



I know I can be guilty of this when I say "I want a 6 member party, and I want to design them all, just like Bard's Tale and SSI Gold Box games and Icewind Dale" but I don't mean that because it was done so long ago that it's going backwards to limit the party to 4. I just prefer that.



I can see some of the points you are making, but I think there are features that some people like in their CRPGs that others don't. I, personally, do not like the first-person POV, nor do I like wandering from place to place with the potential for random encounters, I prefer fast-travel and planned encounters. Others feel differently.



I think that some games felt like they had more to them in exploring an area - Denerim's market feels a little small to me, thinking back to some other CRPGs, but it's a minor nitpick. If making it bigger was more or less just like Bard's Tale 1 or Daggerfall (long streets of nearly identical houses just so the city seems bigger but there's no point to most of the buildings being there) I'd rather the city feel a bit small.

[StrangeCat Productions]

enderandrew wrote...

Ultima VII in many ways the pinnacle of great RPGs. I really miss it.

EA still owns the Ultima franchise. EA also owns a great RPG company in Bioware. They've got this great engine and toolset.

I'd love to see EA make up with Richard Garriot (now that he isn't working for NC Soft anymore). Give them the Dragon Age engine, a team, and let him remake the early Ultima games. The dirty secret of Ultima fans is that Ultima I through III aren't all that consistent or great. He didn't know what he was doing yet.

If he could add the great immersive factors of Ultima VII into the Dragon Age engine, and remake Sosaria, Bioware and EA might resurrect the greatest RPG franchise ever created.

Please, make this so.

I brought it up Ultima 7 because it was another very very dark RPG.  Dark ?  You could acutally kill everyone in that game LOL!  Summon Demons in town and watch the Town Gaurds try and fight them.   I hear that Richard Garriot will do an online RPG with Ultima now.  

I just think the DA world could have little more detail to seem alive. 

[StrangeCat Productions]

MerinTB wrote...

It's not really backwards. I personally find this kind of argument, the "games 10 years ago did this, we should move forward" to be kind of wrong-headed.

D&D more or less created the idea of stats for characters in a game over 30 years ago, should we no longer have stats for characters?

Innovations in game design or graphics do not mean that all games need to have them. A computer game that represents chess should just represent chess, it doesn't need to be Archon or Battle Chess - though those games are cool, too.

I know I can be guilty of this when I say "I want a 6 member party, and I want to design them all, just like Bard's Tale and SSI Gold Box games and Icewind Dale" but I don't mean that because it was done so long ago that it's going backwards to limit the party to 4. I just prefer that.

I can see some of the points you are making, but I think there are features that some people like in their CRPGs that others don't. I, personally, do not like the first-person POV, nor do I like wandering from place to place with the potential for random encounters, I prefer fast-travel and planned encounters. Others feel differently.

I think that some games felt like they had more to them in exploring an area - Denerim's market feels a little small to me, thinking back to some other CRPGs, but it's a minor nitpick. If making it bigger was more or less just like Bard's Tale 1 or Daggerfall (long streets of nearly identical houses just so the city seems bigger but there's no point to most of the buildings being there) I'd rather the city feel a bit small.

naa it's more about creating a more detailed alive world .   That's all. 

[enderandrew]

StrangeCat Productions wrote...

enderandrew wrote...

Ultima VII in many ways the pinnacle of great RPGs. I really miss it.

EA still owns the Ultima franchise. EA also owns a great RPG company in Bioware. They've got this great engine and toolset.

I'd love to see EA make up with Richard Garriot (now that he isn't working for NC Soft anymore). Give them the Dragon Age engine, a team, and let him remake the early Ultima games. The dirty secret of Ultima fans is that Ultima I through III aren't all that consistent or great. He didn't know what he was doing yet.

If he could add the great immersive factors of Ultima VII into the Dragon Age engine, and remake Sosaria, Bioware and EA might resurrect the greatest RPG franchise ever created.

Please, make this so.

I brought it up Ultima 7 because it was another very very dark RPG.  Dark ?  You could acutally kill everyone in that game LOL!  Summon Demons in town and watch the Town Gaurds try and fight them.   I hear that Richard Garriot will do an online RPG with Ultima now.  

I just think the DA world could have little more detail to seem alive. 

You could cast an apocalypse spell and kill EVERYBODY. Back when RPGs were high-fantasy and happy, he opened Ultima VII with a ritual murder. Games weren't dark back then. It was very shocking for its time.

And the first major MMO was an online Ultima game. Perhaps you've heard of it. It is called Ultima Online.

[Endurium]

The only thing I would say in regard to this topic is that 3D virtual reality hasn't come as far as 2D + imagination did, and probably never will.

The 2D games of days gone by were masterpieces, whereas many 3D games today have spartan worlds and very limited interaction. Oh sure we can have our ears talked off by various NPCs, but I'm talking world interaction. Something most developers seem to have forgotten about.

Modifié par Endurium, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:04 .

[StrangeCat Productions]

Richard Garriot is going to create a new Fantasy Mid evil Online Game in the future. that's what he wants to do at least. Personally I never play Online games. Thought I did play Ultima online way back.

And I am sure that there will be a DAO online as the whole of the game industry goes this route.

[addiction21]

No. What you seem to want is a sandbox life simulator type game and dao was never intended or marketed as such.



Being able to touch everything and paint is neat and that is about it. What would be the purpose of being able to pick any flower, stone up off the ground, scratch your name in a tree, pick up a candle stick, pull countless books off a shelf (should these books also include 300 pages of text to add to the realism or immersion?) hold a dinner plate etc etc etc...



Well **** I lost my train of thought. Anyway the game is good judge it on what it is and not what x game had.



And yes in my personal opnion you are being nit picky. You picked a fraction of features to compare between a game from 10 years ago and a game released last month. Then declare game design is going backwards?



I am sure you can find plenty of things that DAO did great that ultima 7 did poorly or did not even have, and then you will see that game design is infact moving forward.

[cipher86]

One game can't be everything. If resources were infinite, DA:O could have been a 10/10. But, developers need to decide which kind of RPG they want to make and focus on that, work that area. If they spread their resources too thin, they'd end up with an enjoyable yet obviously unpolished product (Oblivion and Fallout 3 say "whazzzzzzzzup?!")

DA:O lacks parts of Ultima VII, but Ultima VII lacks parts of DA:O.  It's the way it goes.  I think DA:O is a step forward for PC styled RPGs, and look forward to more.

Modifié par cipher86, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[Bibdy]

The graphics were also horrendously simple. The number of manhours required to make something in a video-game today, that could have been in a video-game 10, especially 20, years ago is borderline absurd.

[StrangeCat Productions]

addiction21 wrote...

No. What you seem to want is a sandbox life simulator type game and dao was never intended or marketed as such.

Being able to touch everything and paint is neat and that is about it. What would be the purpose of being able to pick any flower, stone up off the ground, scratch your name in a tree, pick up a candle stick, pull countless books off a shelf (should these books also include 300 pages of text to add to the realism or immersion?) hold a dinner plate etc etc etc...

Well **** I lost my train of thought. Anyway the game is good judge it on what it is and not what x game had.

And yes in my personal opnion you are being nit picky. You picked a fraction of features to compare between a game from 10 years ago and a game released last month. Then declare game design is going backwards?

I am sure you can find plenty of things that DAO did great that ultima 7 did poorly or did not even have, and then you will see that game design is infact moving forward.

NO I never said I wanted a Sand Box RPG.  Man you guys read to much into sentences ok.  
I think you just need to chill.  I was only comparing what Ultima 7 did compared to what DAO is doing and thought it was a step backwards to game development emersion.
I am not interested in Sand Box RPG's Never Played Oblivion those games don't interest me I need a story like a book like DAO, The Witcher(GOd was that amazing), FFVII, FVIII, KOTOR.  thanks

Modifié par StrangeCat Productions, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[cipher86]

Bibdy wrote...

The graphics were also horrendously simple. The number of manhours required to make something in a video-game today, that could have been in a video-game 10, especially 20, years ago is borderline absurd.

Graphics hardly mean anything when it comes to gameplay.  I remember borrowing "Conqueror: 1086 A.D." off a friend in Grade 11 (Original Xbox era) and being sucked in.

[StrangeCat Productions]

cipher86 wrote...

One game can't be everything. If resources were infinite, DA:O could have been a 10/10. But, developers need to decide which kind of RPG they want to make and focus on that, work that area. If they spread their resources too thin, they'd end up with an enjoyable yet obviously unpolished product (Oblivion and Fallout 3 say "whazzzzzzzzup?!")

DA:O lacks parts of Ultima VII, but Ultima VII lacks parts of DA:O.  It's the way it goes.  I think DA:O is a step forward for PC styled RPGs, and look forward to more.

yea that's true, I never really thought of it like that.  You do have a point.  
One persons like is another persons dislike.
See Ya

[cipher86]

StrangeCat Productions wrote...

NO I never send I wanted that.  Man you guys read to much into sentences ok.  
I think you just need to chill.  I was only comparing what Ultima 7 did compared to what DAO is doing.  
I am not interested in Sand Box RPG's.  thanks

Your original post reads like you're interested in Sandbox RPGs, but I understand that isn't what you're looking for.  I think what you're saying you want more of is innovation... which seems to get closer to drought the longer we are around.  The curse of existing.

When was the last time you played Ultima VII?  I'm sure it'll make you smile and feel warm, but I don't think you could honestly go back to it now and then compare to DA:O and say DA:O is a step back.  More like several leaps in an entirely different direction.

Modifié par cipher86, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:26 .

[StrangeCat Productions]

cipher86 wrote...

StrangeCat Productions wrote...

NO I never send I wanted that.  Man you guys read to much into sentences ok.  
I think you just need to chill.  I was only comparing what Ultima 7 did compared to what DAO is doing.  
I am not interested in Sand Box RPG's.  thanks

Your original post reads sounds like you're interested in Sandbox RPGs, but I understand that isn't what you're looking for.  I think what you're saying you want more of is innovation... which seems to get closer to drought the longer we are around.

The curse of existing.  When was the last time you played Ultima VII?  I'm sure it'll make you smile and feel warm, but I don't think you could honestly go back to it now and then compare to DA:O and say DA:O is a step back.  More like several leaps in an entirely different direction.

Maybe...I think I am just thinking that RPGs now designed need to take into account the details of the world that the playerwill play his or her story in.  NPC's have to seem alive as well as the game world.  That's about it.  This has nothing to do with Sand Box Rpg.   I have already played a game like DAO but in Sci fi setting that would be KOTOR.  yea this works this style of game play.  
I haven't played Ultima 7 in over 10 years 15 years... I don't remember;)

[cipher86]

StrangeCat Productions wrote...

Maybe...I think I am just thinking that RPGs now designed need to take into account the details of the world that the playerwill play his or her story in.  NPC's have to seem alive as well as the game world.  That's about it.  This has nothing to do with Sand Box Rpg.   I have already played a game like DAO but in Sci fi setting that would be KOTOR.  yea this works this style of game play.  
I haven't played Ultima 7 in over 10 years 15 years... I don't remember;)

Have you played Morrowind?  It's my favorite TES game, it's by Bethesda.  All their games have that kind of "alive" bit you're talking about, where NPCs will be here one hour but over there the next because they have set routines.

You can also do almost anything (by game standard) like in Ultima VII... in some ways Ultima VII is a bit sandboxy, though if there's a negative connotation to the term I understand.  It makes it sound like a game is huge yet pointless... but that isn't always the case.  When done right, all "sandbox" means is "freedom of choice" (by game standards).

Modifié par cipher86, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:33 .

[Sylixe]

StrangeCat Productions wrote...

Ok I am loving DA and I try and play once a week at most but there are some things I am wondering about...

First in Ultima 7 you could interact with everything it made the world that much more alive, I could grab a paint brush and paint a picture if I wanted in some ones house as the person went about there chores.  In fact the whole town went about there daily routine during the day and night.

I can understand fast travel but wouldn't it be cool to include an area as a large area with out the path?

For instance, roaming in a town, then oustide the town there is a field, forest, whatever, but your still your in the area that is still a town.  This town happens to have two villages that connect or something but it's still the box on the world map that you can fast travel to as Town X.

Creatures.  Great Creatures yea but every battle that pops up just seems like your going from a to b and over again.    Creatures will actually just stand there doing nothing if they don't see you, don't they do something other then stand around.  

Do you really have to have everything that you can grab highlighted in Glitter?  I remember back in Ultima series you had to check everything.  Clues were very subtle (like The Witcher)  you had to read a book in a library on the other side of the world to figure out a clue or answer for something some where else.  The Witcher had this and so did Dagger Fall. 

I think the interaction with the world is a little on the lacking side.  The story is fantastic but the world interection with the characters is little low.  Would have been cool to create a script that makes NPC's do there daily routine like the place is a live.

Dont' get me wrong it's great game, great story, the combat is fantastic!  Playing on hard after the new patch has been quite challenging too.

It's not that I am being nit picky it's just I am comparing games that were over 10 years ago to the major games released now and seeing a sort of backwards game desing in some things.

The answer you are looking for is "Welcome to 2009".  Games made today are not made to be challenging or even make you think on any level.  Games are made to be as dumbed down as can possibly be so that they can sell as many units as possible and bolster the studio/producers bottom line.  Players today are part of what i call the "instant gratification" generation.  Unless they can have it all immediately with little effort they will not buy it or play it.   I suggest waiting for some good mods to come out or just go back and play some older games that actually require time and effort to complete.

[cipher86]

Sylixe wrote...

The answer you are looking for is "Welcome to 2009".  Games made today are not made to be challenging or even make you think on any level.  Games are made to be as dumbed down as can possibly be so that they can sell as many units as possible and bolster the studio/producers bottom line.  Players today are part of what i call the "instant gratification" generation.  Unless they can have it all immediately with little effort they will not buy it or play it.   I suggest waiting for some good mods to come out or just go back and play some older games that actually require time and effort to complete.

A lot of games these days are pretty simple, but so was Pong and Pac Man.  Or maybe you want to skip ahead a bit to Super Mario Bros.

The only difference is that now there are MANY more games available, and many of them are just prettied up Pac Man's or Pong's (at heart).  There are definitely a lot of current games that require cognitive lifting, but I'm sure I lost you at "A lot..."

Now fetch your cane and get back to your creaky rocking chair where you belong.

Modifié par cipher86, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:53 .

[Original182]

Yes I feel like games nowadays have been dumbed down to no-brainers, and still people don't know how to cross the bridge puzzle in the gauntlet.

In Ultima Underworld, you had to find the bones of Garamon and put them in his resting place. There are no questmarkers to tell you where the bones are, all bones look alike and have the same generic name. You had to use vague hints to find them. Garamon will appear in your dream and tell you it's somewhere to the north west, then the dream ends. Garamon was a powerful mage when he was alive. You go north west, then found bones in the midst of magical items. Therefore those must be Garamon's bones.

The gauntlet bridge puzzle is peanuts compared to how much you had to carefully read to solve puzzles back then. And still kids nowadays can't solve it. It's scary.

And the OP's point is that games from 10 years ago could do so much more, interaction with the world, roaming, exploration, open-endedness. The virtual world actually felt like a real world, really immersed you into it. How is it that nowaday games cannot even compete with ancient games? Aren't we supposed to be more technologically advanced?

Modifié par Original182, 15 décembre 2009 - 04:58 .

[cipher86]

Original182 wrote...

And the OP's point is that games from 10 years ago could do so much more, interaction with the world, roaming, exploration, open-endedness. The virtual world actually felt like a real world, really immersed you into it. How is it that nowaday games cannot even compete with ancient games? Aren't we supposed to be more technologically advanced?

yet another old crony who just wants to be young and inexperienced again.  ha! i'm 22. how's that make you feel, ye olde fart?

Modifié par cipher86, 15 décembre 2009 - 05:00 .

[Original182]

cipher86 wrote...

Original182 wrote...

And the OP's point is that games from 10 years ago could do so much more, interaction with the world, roaming, exploration, open-endedness. The virtual world actually felt like a real world, really immersed you into it. How is it that nowaday games cannot even compete with ancient games? Aren't we supposed to be more technologically advanced?

yet another old crony who just wants to be young again.  ha! i`m 22. how`s that make you feel, ye olde fart?

I'm only 28 you punk****.
Ultima Underworld was released in 1993 I think.
And show some respect to the games of old. I remember reading from the Baldur's Gate manual that the Baldur's Gate team were inspired by games like Ultima, Betrayal at Krondor. They loved it.
If there was no ultima, there wouldn't be Baldur's Gate. And if there wasn't Baldur's Gate, there would be no spiritual successor called Dragon Age.
Again, show respect to the classic games that made games what it is today, despite lacking in some areas.

[runab0ut]

I remember the Avatar's party member whines a lot when hungry. Heh, kill a deer or make some bread.



Honestly, I would love to have them back.



But the transition from 2d sprites to 3d is a big factor. You cannot animate and detail everything in the game these days to give out simple items, like churning that 100 pails of milk to butter or make bread from flour just like in the old Ultima games. Imagine the man-hours, data and testing to do these again in a modern game.



It may give a sense of 'real-living-world-and-economy", but these details are not important to gamers these days. People just want to push-thru the game, collect all these 'achievements', blow things up then rack up the points.



So devs would just focus more on story, environment, conversations, NPCs, UI and combat instead. Oh yeah, and how they render realistic 1 billion poly water bubbles a seahorse make as it swims by.



It's feasible... I reckon ain't gonna be soon.