84 réponses à ce sujet

[Palathas]

I wouldn't say that design is going backward. A number of games by Interplay then Black Isle then Bioware are very immersive and don't really need the fluff like painting and what not. Having NPCs going about their business would be nice but once again that's pretty much just fluff.



I find that these games are immersive enough in their story that my imagination covers a lot of the smaller stuff much like reading a book.

[cipher86]

Original182 wrote...

*creaks back into topic*
*hacks and coughs a few times*
I'm only 28 you punk****.
Ultima Underworld was released in 1993 I think.

*cracks back*

And show some respect to the games of old. I remember reading from the Baldur's Gate manual that the Baldur's Gate team were inspired by games like Ultima, Betrayal at Krondor. They *cough* loved *hack* it *wheeze*.
If there was no ultima, there wouldn't be Baldur's Gate. And if there wasn't Baldur's Gate, there would be no spiritual successor called Dragon Age.
Again, show respect to the classic games that made games what it is today, despite lacking in some areas.

*creaks back out of topic, can`t make it, is instead carried home by a (much younger and healthier) loved one *

I play the games of old.  I respect the part they played in shaping games into what they are today.  However, I`ve got no delusions about them being inarguably better simply because of their age.  The mage gear surrounding the mage bones = the guy you`re looking for doesn`t = a genious design that has never been duplicated or improved upon and never will be.

Debates like this are alway

[cipher86]

Palathas wrote...
I find that these games are immersive enough in their story that my imagination covers a lot of the smaller stuff much like reading a book.

Imagination is for noobs.  Finding mage bones and killing rats is where it`s at.

[Original182]

cipher86 wrote...
I play the games of old.

No wonder you could mimic an old man on the forums pretty well, you're one yourself.

I respect the part they played in shaping games into what they are today.  However, I`ve got no delusions about them being inarguably better simply because of their age.  The mage gear surrounding the mage bones = the guy you`re looking for doesn`t = a genious design that has never been duplicated or improved upon and never will be.

First you say you respect old games. Then you ridicule the mage bones in the above post.

And you miss the point totally. I'm not saying old games' quests are better just because they're old and I'm feeling nostalgic. I'm saying old games' quests are better, because they are complex and require thinking. Some people can't even solve the bridge gauntlet quest despite puzzles in games being dumbed down as it is. And judging from the posts in the thread, it seems many people share the sentiment that old games are better.

10 years from now we probably have to dumb them down even more, with step by step instructions on how to solve the bridge puzzle. Um, doesn't that defeat the purpose of solving puzzles on your own? This may be what the future holds for gaming.

Debates like this are alway

At least an "old man" like me could complete my sentences. Looks like you lost a few brain cells already, fellow old man who has played games of old.

Modifié par Original182, 15 décembre 2009 - 05:56 .

[runab0ut]

Original182 wrote...
10 years from now we probably have to dumb them down even more, with step by step instructions on how to solve the bridge puzzle.

Nope, kids would just twiddle their thumbs and the game credits would roll.

[darkblueglass]

StrangeCat Productions wrote...

Ok I am loving DA and I try and play once a week at most but there are some things I am wondering about...

First in Ultima 7 you could interact with everything it made the world that much more alive, I could grab a paint brush and paint a picture if I wanted in some ones house as the person went about there chores.  In fact the whole town went about there daily routine during the day and night.

I can understand fast travel but wouldn't it be cool to include an area as a large area with out the path?

For instance, roaming in a town, then oustide the town there is a field, forest, whatever, but your still your in the area that is still a town.  This town happens to have two villages that connect or something but it's still the box on the world map that you can fast travel to as Town X.

Creatures.  Great Creatures yea but every battle that pops up just seems like your going from a to b and over again.    Creatures will actually just stand there doing nothing if they don't see you, don't they do something other then stand around.  

Do you really have to have everything that you can grab highlighted in Glitter?  I remember back in Ultima series you had to check everything.  Clues were very subtle (like The Witcher)  you had to read a book in a library on the other side of the world to figure out a clue or answer for something some where else.  The Witcher had this and so did Dagger Fall. 

I think the interaction with the world is a little on the lacking side.  The story is fantastic but the world interection with the characters is little low.  Would have been cool to create a script that makes NPC's do there daily routine like the place is a live.

Dont' get me wrong it's great game, great story, the combat is fantastic!  Playing on hard after the new patch has been quite challenging too.

It's not that I am being nit picky it's just I am comparing games that were over 10 years ago to the major games released now and seeing a sort of backwards game desing in some things.

I miss the bread backing in Ultima VII. 
Personally, I like to see a game combining story / dialogue / companion interaction of BioWare games and the open world / interactivity of Ultima VII. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Baldur's Gate had the same opening wandering available that the Ultima games (1-7.5) provided. This feature didn't just disappear in 1993.

Ultima did do a lot of things right, though. Have we seen a major RPG without a Kill Foozle plot since Ultima IV?

[Original182]

darkblueglass wrote...
I miss the bread backing in Ultima VII. 
Personally, I like to see a game combining story / dialogue / companion interaction of BioWare games and the open world / interactivity of Ultima VII. 

I remember I would wait till it's night time to bake as many bread as possible to sell for gold, because the baker would get in the way during day time. I would bake all night long till the baker comes.

I would also carry mutton to Boots to sell for gold. For a long time, I did those 2 jobs to earn gold to buy all the expensive spells and reagents. It was tedious, but was so much fun I didn't care.

Last year I replayed, and laughed at how I took the long route to becoming rich. The easiest way to earn gold was to hunt drakes and dragons for gems in the caves west of Paws, and sell the gems for even more gold. You get xp too.

[cipher86]

tbh I like Ultima VIII more than Ultima VII. Though Ultima VII was the first time I killed an orphan, and death by puddle was never fun.

Modifié par cipher86, 15 décembre 2009 - 02:01 .

[Magic Zarim]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Yeah, it would be great to have the ultimate super fantastic bombastic orgasmic epic uber romantic ultra game that has thousands of square miles of explorable land with super-interactive world and ultra realistic hyper AI simulating real life routines, and a grand epic tale like none ever told, and super fluid animations and awesome combat and a huge in depth character progression system.

However, it just isn't financially or physically feasible at his point in time.

Now what are you babbling about? The Witcher offered that back in 2007 already

[Razh2211]

I never got around playing Ultima games, even though I'm 25. But now, reading this, I think I'm going to drop my second run of DA and go find Ultima 7.

Thanks guys.



Graphics are overrated. I'm someone who wouldn't mind if Dragon Age was done in Infinity engine.

[blazin130791]

BG will allways be the standard i hold other RPGs up to.

[SheffSteel]

Game design appears to go backwards because hardware and consumer demands advance at such a pace that developers are struggling to keep up - reinventing the wheel every year, because last year's wheel is no longer "good enough". The cost of making even a bad, boring game is now so high that very few companies can manage anything more than that.

ETA If you want better games, stop buying new hardware and spend the money on games for older hardware - be that console or PC. That will give the developers a chance to get more out of the existing hardware.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:09 .

[cipher86]

Razh2211 wrote...

I never got around playing Ultima games, even though I'm 25. But now, reading this, I think I'm going to drop my second run of DA and go find Ultima 7.

Abandonia and DOSBox.  Honestly though, I try going back to some of these old games and they're real hard to play.  Not because of graphics or sound, but because the way they control can be a pita.

[Razh2211]

cipher86 wrote...
Abandonia and DOSBox.  Honestly though, I try going back to some of these old games and they're real hard to play.  Not because of graphics or sound, but because the way they control can be a pita.

Thanks, but I found 7, 8 & 9 batch already. Abandonia is priceless though.
And yeah, something good came out of these modern games after all. Controls.

[pathenry]

StrangeCat Productions wrote...
Do you really have to have everything that you can grab highlighted in Glitter?  I remember back in Ultima series you had to check everything.  Clues were very subtle (like The Witcher)  you had to read a book in a library on the other side of the world to figure out a clue or answer for something some where else. 

Yes but now they have to cater to the console users er...I mean the lowest common denominator people.

They have the attention spans of puppies on meth.

They can't be bothered to remember things, or to bring extra gear along just in case. So torches must be put in barrels right at the entrances of any dark dungeons, all the clues have to be right in front of them, and interactive objects must be shiny and glitter-fied.

[cipher86]

Razh2211 wrote...

Thanks, but I found 7, 8 & 9 batch already. Abandonia is priceless though.
And yeah, something good came out of these modern games after all. Controls.

To date there is only one game that I can go back to time and time again and have absolutely no complaints about:

Final Fantasy IV.  It wasn't the first game I played, and I didn't even own it.  I play it at least once a year (I actually did two this year, finishing up the second near the end of October).  From the moment you leave the castle to the battle with Zemus, it's nonstop epic - and it can be 100% completed in 12 hours (unless you're the type that hunts for Pink Tails, in which case it may take you years).

inb4tehlulz

Modifié par cipher86, 15 décembre 2009 - 03:19 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

*sigh* I miss how much I loved Pool of Radiance for my C128 back in the 80s.



Now that was fun. And you only got to level 6 and had relatively terrible gear by the time you finished, yet it was an amazing time.



I think a key difference is you had to use your imagination back then in conjunction with the game to get the whole experience. And now, the games graphics and voices and such are at the level where your imagination can take a rest and the game does everything for you to create the expierence. The problem is that our imaginations do a better job of creating what we want as individuals than a team of designers.



Hmm I think I'm off topic.

[Gracchio]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Yeah, it would be great to have the ultimate super fantastic bombastic orgasmic epic uber romantic ultra game that has thousands of square miles of explorable land with super-interactive world and ultra realistic hyper AI simulating real life routines, and a grand epic tale like none ever told, and super fluid animations and awesome combat and a huge in depth character progression system.

However, it just isn't financially or physically feasible at his point in time.

Not to mention we'd be dead before it's finished.

[xguild]

Game design is as much about what you don't put in as what you do. As a game designer myself I can tell you that many games like Ultima 7 focused on the wrong things. While being able to paint on a painting at some random peasants house was interesting, its not really relevant to the game as an RPG. After all the game is about you being a hero in a fantasy world, not goofing off in some peasants house painting flowers.



There are many approaches to game development but the days of irrelevant content to a games principle focus have come and gone for one reason and one reason only... game development today takes a god awful amount of time, in particular if you want to produce a quality, bug free game. Hence game designers and game producers have come to accept that while there are many interesting features that can be added to make a game more interactive and interesting to explore, every second spent developing irrelevant content (to the focus of the game) is time taken away from development on the games principle content.



Think of it this way. If the developers decided to add the interact paint boards, the functions of mundane NPC with no purpose in the game's activity to give the world more life it could mean one less functional speciality class, shorter dungeons, more bugs .. you name it. But whatever happens a game can't stay in development longer then it is profitable to do so, so if you go with a 2 year development cycle... its 2 years or your loosing money, so you choose your battles... Useless paint brushing, or do we add something cool like Blood Mages, or another side quest. No matter what however something always have to give.

[Oliver Sudden]

Another group (not Lazarus) is working on Ultima VI based off the Dragon Siege engine.

[addiction21]

****Runs to grab his squeegee****



Holy crap the elitism in this thread is so thick its covering my spreadsheets and other windows.