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Game Design going backwards from Ultima 7!


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#51
darkblueglass

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Razh2211 wrote...

cipher86 wrote...
Abandonia and DOSBox.  Honestly though, I try going back to some of these old games and they're real hard to play.  Not because of graphics or sound, but because the way they control can be a pita.


Thanks, but I found 7, 8 & 9 batch already. Abandonia is priceless though.
And yeah, something good came out of these modern games after all. Controls.:)


You should try Exult which enable you to play Ulitma 7 on Windows even in high resolution. The Exult is not a remake; it is a revival. You will still need Ultima 7 installed on your hard disk.
http://exult.sourceforge.net/

#52
darkblueglass

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cheeseslayersmu wrote...

-1...play oblivion.


Oblivion is different from Ultima 7.
People say you can do whatever you want in Oblivion but I disagree with that statement.
I say  you can kill anybody and steal anything and buy house in Oblivion but that's all.

For example, you will find plenty of paint brushes and canvases etc but you can't draw in Oblivion.
I have no idea why they even bother putting those objects in the game if you can't do anything with them.
Oblivion is full of those kind of meaningless objects.

In Ultima 7, you can paint pictures, you can bake (first making dough with flour and water and put them in the oven) and you can play musical instruments etc. You can stack up boxes to make a kind of stair to reach high up.
In terms of interactivity with the world, I think that the Ultima 7 is the best. 

But making a game like Ultima 7 seems very time consuming. Even Origin didn't implement same level of interactivity after Ultima 7 part 2. Many people were so disappointed by Ultima 8 because you can't bake anymore :-). If you read Ultima 9 pre launch interview with Richard Garriot, you can see many interviewer ask you can bake in Ultima 9.
I  just wish BioWare takes Ultima 7 game design philosophy and add their amazing stories/interesting companions/superior combat system into their new game.

#53
Razh2211

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darkblueglass wrote...
You should try Exult which enable you to play Ulitma 7 on Windows even in high resolution. The Exult is not a remake; it is a revival. You will still need Ultima 7 installed on your hard disk.
http://exult.sourceforge.net/


Thanks, but it was part of the file already. It's running nicely.^_^
I'm surprised actually. Not really used to games this old working on my monster. I had troubles with Hexplore, for example.

#54
Sylvius the Mad

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darkblueglass wrote...

If you read Ultima 9 pre launch interview with Richard Garriot, you can see many interviewer ask you can bake in Ultima 9.

And you can.

#55
SheffSteel

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I am so looking forward to that game! I'm gonna roll up a multiclass ranger/thief/baker!
I am gonna be the best baker in the world! People all over the internets will see me ingame and bow down, calling out, "Truly, you are the master baker!".

Modifié par SheffSteel, 15 décembre 2009 - 08:39 .


#56
MerinTB

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I think about the only thing I really did in the beta of Ultima Online WAS cut down trees for wood to make arrows or something like that.

Crafting was a very new thing at the time, and it was a refreshing change of pace from just killing things.



Oh, for the days when gathering and crafting were new and fun.

#57
Sylixe

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cipher86 wrote...

Sylixe wrote...

The answer you are looking for is "Welcome to 2009".  Games made today are not made to be challenging or even make you think on any level.  Games are made to be as dumbed down as can possibly be so that they can sell as many units as possible and bolster the studio/producers bottom line.  Players today are part of what i call the "instant gratification" generation.  Unless they can have it all immediately with little effort they will not buy it or play it.   I suggest waiting for some good mods to come out or just go back and play some older games that actually require time and effort to complete.

A lot of games these days are pretty simple, but so was Pong and Pac Man.  Or maybe you want to skip ahead a bit to Super Mario Bros.

The only difference is that now there are MANY more games available, and many of them are just prettied up Pac Man's or Pong's (at heart).  There are definitely a lot of current games that require cognitive lifting, but I'm sure I lost you at "A lot..."

Now fetch your cane and get back to your creaky rocking chair where you belong.


First of all the first PacMan is a "Dumbed Down" game that perfectly illustrates how something so bad can be so successful because anyone can play it.  Super Mario Bros is only slightly above that but in the end is about the same.  However if you look at the first Zelda you can see a masterpiece in RPG and difficulty level.  There were many many games then that were stupid easy but that's only because technology wasn't there yet for the RPG elements to see their full potential.  Games can be limitless in their design these days but the developers choose NOT to make them like that so they can maximise profits. 

Lets move ahead further though and talk about the REAL rpg's that came out in the 90's.  Few games can hold a torch to games like Arena, Morrowind, Pool of Radiance, Bards Tale, Baldur's gate series, MuDD's or even Everquest. 

Exactly what games today even come close to the immersion those games gave us?

#58
MerinTB

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Not to nit-pick, but Bard's Tale and Pool of Radiance were in the 80's.

And the immersion levels of MU*'s or Everquest are very debatable.

Personally, Morrowind did not grab me or hold me beyond the character creation. Made a lot of characters, though.

How far back qualifies as "today?" Because I've got a run of Bioware games that meet or beat the ones you listed, plus a bunch of Troika games, and a few others (Freedom Force) that I could list.

Not knocking the SSI games nor the Bard's Tale series.

Modifié par MerinTB, 15 décembre 2009 - 09:01 .


#59
Sylvius the Mad

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MerinTB wrote...

I think about the only thing I really did in the beta of Ultima Online WAS cut down trees for wood to make arrows or something like that.

Much as I spent many hours fishing in EverQuest.

Any zone with water - voila, you could fish.  I would sneak into zones above my level just so I could fish there.

#60
blazin130791

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I miss Minsc and Edwin :(

#61
Sylixe

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MerinTB wrote...

Not to nit-pick, but Bard's Tale and Pool of Radiance were in the 80's.

And the immersion levels of MU*'s or Everquest are very debatable.

Personally, Morrowind did not grab me or hold me beyond the character creation. Made a lot of characters, though.

How far back qualifies as "today?" Because I've got a run of Bioware games that meet or beat the ones you listed, plus a bunch of Troika games, and a few others (Freedom Force) that I could list.

Not knocking the SSI games nor the Bard's Tale series.



Yeah, sort of threw them in and didn't edit it to have them as late 80's games.  For me the MuDD's were always the best but than again i was so used to regular P&P playing it just felt more comfortable.  EQ was immersive in the fact that you cherished your character greatly and treated everyone with respect in game.  If you didn't you could end up losing everything you worked for and/or have a bad rep on your server and have nowhere to go.  Accomplishments in game where also a big deal as few people ever completed certain quest lines, raided certain big mobs or progressed as far in the craft trades as others.  None of that really exists today in the games we have now and especially the MMO's.

I really miss the tradeskill system EQ had in the old days.  Getting to those grandmaster crafting items or the Prayer shawl quest line is still some of the best fun i have had in a game.  CLosest i have seen come to it is in Vanguard, which is actually a top notch game for the old school EQ players.

Modifié par Sylixe, 15 décembre 2009 - 09:13 .


#62
Razh2211

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blazin130791 wrote...

I miss Minsc and Edwin :(


I miss Boo, the giant space hamster.

#63
blazin130791

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What? NO he's a minature giant space hamster! Boo is outraged! See his fury! It's small, so look close. Trust me, it's there.




#64
blazin130791

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the NPCs in dragon age are some of the best in recent times but i still think BG had the best party members.



i wish i a) had a pc that worked well still B) there was a mod that added BG NPCs



also i jsut realised valygar and sten are kinda similiar lol


#65
deusofnull

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enderandrew wrote...

Ultima VII in many ways the pinnacle of great RPGs. I really miss it.

EA still owns the Ultima franchise. EA also owns a great RPG company in Bioware. They've got this great engine and toolset.

I'd love to see EA make up with Richard Garriot (now that he isn't working for NC Soft anymore). Give them the Dragon Age engine, a team, and let him remake the early Ultima games. The dirty secret of Ultima fans is that Ultima I through III aren't all that consistent or great. He didn't know what he was doing yet.

If he could add the great immersive factors of Ultima VII into the Dragon Age engine, and remake Sosaria, Bioware and EA might resurrect the greatest RPG franchise ever created.

Please, make this so.

maybe if richard garriot wasnt a "pants on head" retard, maybe.

#66
Sam -stone- serious

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StrangeCat Productions wrote...

naa it's more about creating a more detailed alive world .   That's all. 


It is kind of ironic then that current games rarely achieve this "detailed" and especially so "alive" world if at all. The most recent RPG  in memory that had an "alive"  world was the Witcher and even that falls quite short of the older games though it does happen to be several steps ahead of the competition in that department. Oblivion is of course a canditate as well but only after moding it. A modded Oblivion is a fearsome beast.

#67
bawpie

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I remember baking bread with a bucket of blood in Ultima 7. I called it blood bread. Yummy. And then I used the debug menu in part 2 to alter npc schedules and run my own pub (kind of). Incidentally, I never finished either game without resorting to cheating.



I think it'll be a long time before we see that kind of detail in current gen games, just like we're likely to never see any games with the level of character detail/interaction in BG2 ever again.



Still, as long as Bioware keep making games like DA or Mass Effect, I'm happy.




#68
steelfire_dragon

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I'd play another Ultima game.
I'd play another Bards Tale and even Wasteland.
dragon wars maybe

another MK or SF, no not likely


also, the debug mode, I used to make the nocs have a greatsword in their hands ,and the dance around with it.

Modifié par steelfire_dragon, 15 décembre 2009 - 10:53 .


#69
Statisfaction

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Ultima VII was the shizzle, and it's a pretty accurate statement to say that almost every single RPG made after it has been "going backwards". Dragon Age 2 could definately take pointers from Ultima 7 if they're interested in making a cool living world (Oblivion should've taken a couple pointers too... it was a good start, but barely noticable except for the fact that I had to wait 8 hours for my store to open)



If you go into a pub in Oblivion, everyone shows up at the same time, sits down and drinks ale all night. In Ultima 7, everyone has a slightly different schedule, they shout orders at the waitress, she comes around and drops random food, people eat their random food, order more, and it feels alive. Mages didn't just sit in their houses, they bustled around rambling, picking up ingredients, tossing them in their cauldron, then started filling potions up and replacing them on the table. In clothing stores, shopkeeps would pick up a bale of wool, spin it into thread, then use the loom to turn it into cloth, then use shears on it to make clothing or bandages. It was pretty simple loop, but what a friggen rush to be able to cut your own bandages and bake your own bread!



If DA2 can keep their high quality story and characters, but beef up the world so it doesn't feel so dead, it'd be a perfect 10/10. I mean the ability to break into every single house in Denerim to find rough leather gloves and elfroot is excessive and a bit of a waste of time, but NPCs having schedules and interacting with the environment adds so much to a world.



P.S. I want to have Richard Garriot's baby, even if it's not quite right in the head (genetic?)

#70
enderandrew

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Oliver Sudden wrote...

Another group (not Lazarus) is working on Ultima VI based off the Dragon Siege engine.


That project is based off of Lazarus, and features some of the Lazarus team. When Lazarus was in production, they also made a generic Dungeon Siege mod called Project Britannia, which is more of a blank slate Britannia. The new Ultima VI project is an extension of that.

#71
Darpaek

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Giggle.



One day... Richard Garriot may make an Utlima Online game... I wonder what he would call it... =P



I've never understood why "story RPGs" and "sandbox RPGs" have come to be viewed as mutually exclusive. I happen to admire the worldcraft in the Elder Scrolls games. I would like to a "story RPG" within a "sandbox RPG" world (I feel the BG's accomplished this pretty well for their time - the FF games do this well, too). Just because Bethesda epic failed doesn't mean anyone else would.

#72
StrangeCat Productions

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Damnit I can't bake bread in Dragon Age Origins and that's the problem righ there!!  You hear me Bioware Devs!  I... can't.... Bake.... Bread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:devil:

Raises angry fist !!!

#73
StrangeCat Productions

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cipher86 wrote...

Razh2211 wrote...

Thanks, but I found 7, 8 & 9 batch already. Abandonia is priceless though.
And yeah, something good came out of these modern games after all. Controls.:)


To date there is only one game that I can go back to time and time again and have absolutely no complaints about:

Final Fantasy IV.  It wasn't the first game I played, and I didn't even own it.  I play it at least once a year (I actually did two this year, finishing up the second near the end of October).  From the moment you leave the castle to the battle with Zemus, it's nonstop epic - and it can be 100% completed in 12 hours (unless you're the type that hunts for Pink Tails, in which case it may take you years).

inb4tehlulz


yes I agree Final Fantasy IV was amazing!  I really forgot about that one.  I played them all all the Japanese RPG's Now though I haven't played any I missed Lost Odessy I could kick myself for that, FFXIII?  I won't be able to play that either.  
Still FF IV was fantastic.  Now we could say oh man don't you think Square Enix has gone Backwards in Game design with FFXIII compared to the awesome game FF IV that Sakaguchi headed:lol:

#74
MerinTB

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Darpaek wrote...
I've never understood why "story RPGs" and "sandbox RPGs" have come to be viewed as mutually exclusive. I happen to admire the worldcraft in the Elder Scrolls games. I would like to a "story RPG" within a "sandbox RPG" world (I feel the BG's accomplished this pretty well for their time - the FF games do this well, too). Just because Bethesda epic failed doesn't mean anyone else would.


It's a matter of production time and value.  To have more of one thing, another has to go by the wayside.

To focus more programming and resources on flashy graphics and sound, gameplay and writing often get pushed aside.

To spend more coding hours and money on bigger, open sandbox worlds, you have to develop the random encounters engine and the scaling codes and all those locations must be rendered and you need to generate tons of short dialogs for all the people you can talk to (if you want some level of immersion and aren't making an absolute wasteland with no people to interact with.)  This usually means deeper, more well-written dialog is pushed aside as well as deep, interesting stories.

To have deep dialog options and stories, to be able to have richly detailed  and important areas to explore in a very well-connected campaign, often the software development time is pulled away from making bigger areas and endless random people and such.

To have a huge open sandbox world with most semi-important NPCs and up having less shallow, at least partially relevant and not repetitious dialog (anyone else sick of how it seems most NPCs in Bethesda games must have a list of talking points they share?) on top of a deep, involving story that you can sink into AND yet wander around whereever you want - that takes the time spent on developing Oblivion and adds to it the time spent developing Dragon Age, basically - in other words, it is not realistic for a game company to spend the time and money doing it.

That doesn't mean you can't shift between the two.  I think Morrowind and Oblivion, to me, were too big, too open, and the "main" storyline was not only forgettable (you could easily ignore it) but forgettable (you could easily lose track of and not remember that you were doing it.)  But Fallout 3, a much smaller world map and much more controlled story-line than Oblivion, with better dialog and a more engaging storyline, bridges the gap a bit.

The more you get of story depth and dialog depth the less you can have open sandbox - that's just how things are right now.

#75
Liljagare

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You know, I was soooo happy when games started coming out in 3d, "Finally!" I though, now things will become really interactive!!!



See those stones lying about? Build a wall, grab that wandering cow and voila, wall it in, yer a farmer to be! Them big trees? Grab that axe, cut them down, build a cabin!!! Wohoo! Fledgling land owner now!! That half-starved kid wandering by? Feed him, make him take care of the cow... Yes, I'm a lord to be!!



Get some more friends, grab more rocks, build a castle, and onwards..



But, meh.. nope.