222 réponses à ce sujet

[Manton-X2]

To the OP -

Imagine that you went to bed tonight and woke up feeling a little different .. a little off. You later find out your heart (along with everyone else on the planet) has been replaced in the middle of the night with a mechanical one.

Are you telling me you'd be okay with that? Having your heart yanked out and a mechanical one put in without regard for your wishes even if they told you that now you'll never have to worry about a heart attack or heart disease and it will increase your life expectancy? It doesn't matter how well intentioned it may have been, it's a violation of my body and my free will. You have taken away my ability to self determine my own future. There are people in this world right now who would not have surgery or transplants that would save their lives because they don't believe in it. They deserve that right to deny treatment ... to determine their own future on their own terms. Synthesis is genetic rape, pure and simple.

SwobyJ wrote...

We're fulfilling their plan with Synthesis. They/Catalyst never thought it was truly possible until the Crucible docked.
Husks and Reapers are failed attempts at it, but used in the efforts toward it, and EC certainly confirms that part.

That's exactly it. If you take what was added in the EC, it makes the mistake of showing its hand. It has always said:

"We find a new solution."

"The crucible changed me. Created new possibilities. But I can't make them happen, you must act. If there is to be a new solution, you must act."

But now when you question it, the admission:

"We have tried a similar solution in the past, but it has always failed ... because the organics were not ready. It is not something that can be forced."

This is not some new solution that it just thought of because of the addition of the Crucible. I think this has always been its true solution since the very beginning but the closest glowboy could get was a Reaper (a crude form of synthesis). Shepard just jumped into that beam and made its day.

Modifié par Manton-X2, 29 juin 2012 - 09:02 .

[SimKoning]

Considering brain damage can cause massive personality changes... yeah I would be kinda pissed

[AtreiyaN7]

Yeah, a few largely superficial changes in exchange for universal peace and the ability to pursue knowledge and scientific advancement in partnership with all races without fear of another war? It's horrible! I'd much rather be pointlessly dead along with billions/trillions of other people just because some people believe in the bizarre idea that there's secret Reaper programming to eventually turn everyone into future zombies. Being a Synthesis proponent, I would definitely not be bothered.

Anyone who tries the violation of free will argument is a hypocrite as far as I'm concerned because every other option available is a violation of free will. I don't believe that everyone gave Shepard permission to be a selfish git and to Refuse the Catalyst because and everyone in the universe was really, really, really hoping for the option to needlessly die.

I also find the arguments that people are lobotomized, etc. to be a load of crap. The epilogue scenes prove that people do not undergo changes in personality, nor do they end up lobotomized. Kaidan certainly seemed quite sad during that memorial scene, so I guess they didn't bother to brainwash negative emotions out of everyone, did they? Everyone was behaving perfectly normally, but I suspect that even if they let people watch 50,000,000 years of a post-Synthesis future where nothing nefarious happens, they'd probably still try to claim the threat of everyone turning into future Reaperized zombies exists anyway.

[CroGamer002]

JSwisha wrote...

Pretty sure Batman would be pissed.

[Xamufam]

[quote]Torrible wrote...

Since the beginning of time, Humans have always sought and desired knowledge. That's how science has progressed over the ages. This one time opportunity to achieve a complete knowledge of the Galaxy seems too tempting to pass up. That said, I can understand why people would have an aversion to choosing something this momumental for others. Human freedom is sacrosanct. However, I disagree with the "this is unnatural, therefore an abomination" argument. Think about it, the things we have achieved - conquering the skies, landing on the moon, instant communication by voice /text over continents - they would all seem unnatural/unthinkable several hundred years ago but are now accepted as normal.[/quote]

[/quote]

[quote]eddieoctane wrote...

The
line between magic and technology becomes clearer and clearer as more
research is done into the unified field theory. Eventually, a single set
of mathmatical equations will be able to explain all physical
phenomena. This includes higher dimensional interactions, like
superstrings or M theory. There is a point where tech can only be tech,
even if you never saw it before, based solely on science. When you find a
way to cut a gluon in half, come and talk to me about magic. Till then,
everything is tech, and the ending of the game appeared to violate some
basic principles of quantum mechanics.
[/quote]

[Joccaren]

Pretty sure Synthesis doesn't give superpowers.
Just saiyan [Inb4: I see what you did there].

[Jamie9]

Manton-X2 wrote...

To the OP -

Imagine that you went to bed tonight and woke up feeling a little different .. a little off. You later find out your heart (along with everyone else on the planet) has been replaced in the middle of the night with a mechanical one.

Are you telling me you'd be okay with that? Having your heart yanked out and a mechanical one put in without regard for your wishes even if they told you that now you'll never have to worry about a heart attack or heart disease and it will increase your life expectancy? It doesn't matter how well intentioned it may have been, it's a violation of my body and my free will. You have taken away my ability to self determine my own future. There are people in this world right now who would not have surgery or transplants that would save their lives because they don't believe in it. They deserve that right to deny treatment ... to determine their own future on their own terms. Synthesis is genetic rape, pure and simple.

*snip*

That would have merit, but it's the entire galaxy at stake. It's do this, or the galaxy dies. Synthesis results in this Cycle still living, the Geth still living, and the Reapers still living.

Most life preserved. Positive.

Also, in the year 2186, pretty much everybody has cybernetic upgrades or stimulants or gene therapy. Quite different to our modern-day society.

Modifié par Jamie9, 29 juin 2012 - 10:03 .

[EnvyTB075]

They're not superpowers, they're "look you're the same as that teapot, isn't that wonderful?!" powers.

[priestess of blood]

Hackulator wrote...

Honestly, if you woke up tomorrow and someone had given you superpowers while you slept without telling you, would you really be mad? 

Yes I would be.

[SHARXTREME]

It's not even Reapers plan, it's a plan of single broken Starchild Ai who "reaperised" the Reapers against their will in the first place. It's the worst ending possible.
Not even Geth would agree to that.

And the whole reasoning of that Starkid is flawed when he says "The created will always try to destroy their creators". Geth have proved them wrong many times. The ending
needed that fact to be said out loud.

So what is left to do:
a) Control the Reapers- which is a very bad idea, ask the illusive man and that Prothean splinter group who tried the same thing. What really changed?
That is still a major plot hole. Why would the reapers let you control them(or even destroy them) in such (choice) way.
I can swallow that the faulty AI could leave you with some unlogical choices/let you choose, but to let you choose his own death is a little..yeah..

Destroy everything sintetic- which is a mass murder of geth who became your allies and first sintetic race to make peace with organics..

[Wilkco]

with Synthesis it is just a nice way to do the reapers job for them plus it goes against eveything that is humanity ie individuality, choice and freewill.

Nobody gets the choice to the decide the changes to them with the others you give humanity a choice ie fight,flee or hide. i support destroy ending but any of the other is a better choice than synthesis.

[MadRabbit999]

Living with no sickness, no hunger, no conflicts, no poverty?

Being able to understand how do other animals think by listening their thoughts, and communicating with them.

Get rid of all phobias and most fear-inducing effects?

Hell yes, I want that.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 29 juin 2012 - 10:48 .

[SHARXTREME]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Living with no sickness, no hunger, no conflicts, no poverty?

Being able to understand how do other animals think by listening their thoughts, and communicating with them.

Get rid of all phobias and most fear-inducing effects?

Hell yes, I want that.

Where did you deduce that from?
New species-new problems. Magic does NOT work in Sci-Fi. Because SF is SCIENCE fiction.

Synthesis would only be a new begining, starting everything from scratch as humans/asari etc v0.1.
In a sense it would be a logical evolution, but there are three things why that logic is completely wrong:

1. Choice is not yours to make, evolution is not forced(in a sense it can be, but that's a long story).
    Phylosophy:  "To survive is to adapt. To adapt is to evolve. To evolve is to live"  doesn't apply here because the         choice is not yours to make, it's not ultimate because we talk about just one galaxy in a billions, it's not in the           spirit of free will, it's playing god , more then any other ending.

2. Nature does NOT work by our logic standards(evidently), therefore YOU can NOT take the choice/take the chance at all at reasoning is your decision the right one, so the choice is not yours to make. 

3. Most important. That choice is presented/given to you by faulty AI who forced something similar to races that we now call Reapers. So that choice and every cycle leading to that choice is WRONG. 
Therefore that choice is wrong. Two wrongs doesn't make anything correct and it would create a real chaos.

(4.) Why trust Starchild(faulty AI) at all? It gave you no reason at all by his words or actions to trust it(or its judgement). On the contrary.

If it wouldn't involve the killing of geth, Destroy would be the right ending.

Remember when Garrus asked you: - "Is this what is all come down to? Ruthless calculus of war- sacrifice 10 billion here, so the 20 billion there can live?"
That is the REAL choice, and it happens long before the ending. 

Shepard then replies: a) No. then we would not be better then the Reapers
                                          If thet's what it takes

Garrus then replies: " You made peace with the Geth, so maybe there is another option to end this.
So let's make that calculus, or better said aftermath:
Paragon Control is sacrifice of one. Renegade control is what you always wanted if you're like illusive man.
Synthesis is sacrifice of everyone even in the future.
Destroy is sacrifice of geth.
Refuse is sacrifice of current cycle.
That's the math.

 
Bioware said. "We wanted to make the ending that wil be discussed for many years" 
It will be,maybe and I would  say that they could have done the good job in that if it wasn't for original script that I have read somewhere(about dark matter/energy) and for the fact that all endings have so little(none) background story and/or leads to it, and most of all- quality of execution. Because we can all agree that whole ending from jumping in to beam is NOT the same quality, in any sense, as the rest of the game(s). 

Modifié par SHARXTREME, 29 juin 2012 - 11:42 .

[Carlthestrange]

So... much... green.

[billida]

I always wanted to have green eyes.
But not that kind of green.

[Carlthestrange]

billida wrote...

I always wanted to have green eyes.
But not that kind of green.

My thoughts exactly. TOO GREEN.

[Costin_Razvan]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Yeah, a few largely superficial changes in exchange for universal peace and the ability to pursue knowledge and scientific advancement in partnership with all races without fear of another war? It's horrible!

There is no bloody certainity that there wouldn't be another war, and if there was nothing would stop the Reapers who are either still controlled by the Catalyst or have their own free will, which is worse considering that the Catalyst stopped them from killing every single last race.

But let's assume there is no war, unlikely but fine. You've just eliminated all conflict and by doing that you've greatly hampered any scientific advancement.

No the Reapers sharing the things they already know is not advancement. Our greatest scientific gains have been made in large part due to conflict, conflict of ideas, ideoligies etc. It doesn't necesarily mean war. I reject the notion that the best thing is to eliminate all conflict in the galaxy, it's not. There's a saying: Humans thrive on conflict, and it's bloody true.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2012 - 11:51 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Lol I don't get how everyone being green (or half synthetic) means no conflict. The only reason it would mean that there is no conflict if you have changed the way people think and feel without their permission and that would be seriously immoral.

[Costin_Razvan]

"Because we are all equal now with synthesis!"

No **** Einstein. We are all equal as humans but it doesn't mean we've stopped killing each other.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juin 2012 - 11:52 .

[Manton-X2]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Living with no sickness, no hunger, no conflicts, no poverty?

Being able to understand how do other animals think by listening their thoughts, and communicating with them.

Get rid of all phobias and most fear-inducing effects?

Hell yes, I want that.

That's wonderful for you.  Now, you would force that upon me even if I wanted to remain 100% human?


Here's the problem that some people keep tiptoeing around and trying to make go away.  It is impossible for free will and free thought to be present in Synthesis if you are guaranteed instant galaxy-wide peace.  Right here and now you have a thread full of people who see Synthesis as something horrendous and we are in conflict with those who don't.  I would rather die than be turned into some synthetic bastardization of a human.   I would assume that there would be millions or billions of others who would feel that way.

So, this change happens and we want out.  We want to go back to 100% human.  We know what changed us, we know where it is, we know the technology is still there and we demand that the rest of you stop talking to the flowers and turn us back.  Do we have the option of going to war with the pro-synthesis beings to try and force them to turn us back?

If no, then we are no longer free beings with free thought and the ability to self determine.  We are computers programmed to play nice.  If yes, then synthesis is a fallacy.  We are the same, we have not evolved and we -will- get into conflict and war and there will never be perpetual galactic peace and immortality.  You can't have it both ways.  It's not in our nature.

[Peranor]

Carlthestrange wrote...

billida wrote...

I always wanted to have green eyes.
But not that kind of green.

My thoughts exactly. TOO GREEN.

[Manton-X2]

Jamie9 wrote...

That would have merit, but it's the entire galaxy at stake. It's do this, or the galaxy dies. Synthesis results in this Cycle still living, the Geth still living, and the Reapers still living.

Most life preserved. Positive.

Also, in the year 2186, pretty much everybody has cybernetic upgrades or stimulants or gene therapy. Quite different to our modern-day society.

No, you hit destroy, you kill the reapers which is what EVERY race that has signed on to your fleet wants and in the end you sacrifice EDI and a number of the Geth to save everyone else in the galaxy.  And you do that without destroying each species' unique individual evolutionary path or possibly their free thought/will.

And since during the epilogue we see that computers were not wiped by the wave, the assumption is that the majority of Geth are still alive in Geth servers meaning their race continues once they begin building more mobile platforms. 

War is sacrifice.  Just as Hackett sacrificed an entire fleet to allow two others to escape, sacrificing a few million Geth so that all sentient beings now and into the future will be free from the Reaper threat is more than acceptable.  Turning the Milkway into the Stepford Galaxy .. not so much.

Modifié par Manton-X2, 29 juin 2012 - 12:09 .

[MadRabbit999]

Manton-X2 wrote...
  I would rather die than be turned into some synthetic bastardization of a human.   I would assume that there would be millions or billions of others who would feel that way.

Except that by this point you will not be thinking or feel like that anymore, and you will feel quite content and happy for what you are.

Take James, he is like the caveman of modern times... yet he doesn't seem to protest much.. neither do Krogans which only rely on their abilities and thier pride coems before anything else, so why d oyou think this is? Why no mass suicides or separatists sides?

Syntethis makes everyone a Geth essentially, with the possibility of sharing thoughts and understanding across the whole galaxy, even with plants and bacteria.

Would you object if it was forced on you? Yes

Would you accept it after it was forced on you? Yes, because you would be a compeltely different person.

Anyhow there is no right or wrong with ME Ending options, that is the point, that we all have different opinions.

If you ever watched an anime or movie called Death Note, you'd know that people can support either side, but there is no right or wrong, THAT is the point... that both have equally strong reasons t obe considerated right, and neither is wrong, it is only a different way of thinking.

If synthesis was possible in reality I would welcome it, for I'd rather live in a world were everyone is happy, even if it was forced on them to begin with, rather than the world of S***T we live in now.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 29 juin 2012 - 12:19 .

[Deltateam Elcor]

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Manton-X2 wrote...
  I would rather die than be turned into some synthetic bastardization of a human.   I would assume that there would be millions or billions of others who would feel that way.

Except that by this point you will not be thinking or feel like that anymore, and you will feel quite content and happy for what you are.

Take James, he is like the caveman of modern times... yet he doesn't seem to protest much.. neither do Krogans which only rely on their abilities and thier pride coems before anything else, so why d oyou think this is? Why no mass suicides or separatists sides?

Syntethis makes everyone a Geth essentially, with the possibility of sharing thoughts and understanding across the whole galaxy, even with plants and bacteria.

Would you object if it was forced on you? Yes

Would you accept it after it was forced on you? Yes, because you would be a compeltely different person.

Anyhow there is no right or wrong with ME Ending options, that is the point, that we all have different opinions.

If you ever watched an anime or movie called Death Note, you'd know that people can support either side, but there is no right or wrong, THAT is the point... that both have equally strong reasons t obe considerated right, and neither is wrong, it is only a different way of thinking.

If synthesis was possible in reality I would welcome it, for I'd rather live in a world were everyone is happy, even if it was forced on them to begin with, rather than the world of S***T we live in now.

A life with one single emotion?

Real happy there, a life without meaning is a life without happyness anyway.

So no it would just be an emotionless blur, pointless life and ultimately you stop asking the big questions.

[Manton-X2]

MadRabbit999 wrote...
Except that by this point you will not be thinking or feel like that anymore, and you will feel quite content and happy for what you are.

... snip ..
If synthesis was possible i nreality I would welcome it, for I'd rather live in a world were everyone is happy, even if it was forced on them to begin with, rather than the world of S***T we live in now.

That is perhaps the most f'd up thing I have ever heard.  To not just willingly accept the loss of your own free will and free thought, to not just run towards it and embrace it but to want to force that onto others.  To take away what they are for your little idea of utopia. I can't even articulate the level of scorn, disgust and hatred I have for that concept.  Wow.  Just wow.