222 réponses à ce sujet

[Manton-X2]

memorysquid wrote...

Pretty much anything can lift the scales from your eyes.  Yeah it gives you new perceptions which changes you.  Hopefully so will my post.  Should I have given you an informed consent form before I began posting?  It's a non-trivial change you are blasting out over the galaxy, sure.  It's also a far better choice than the alternatives.

--snip--

OK, well that is a fine critique of ME3.  Personally the idea that advanced races would be likely to conflict with organic races is nonsense.  I think advancement lessens the likelihood of violent conflict; not ensures it.  My beef is that rather than critiquing the writing, people keep trying to change the story into something else to fit their narrative.  It's easier for them to change an easily and commonly referenced work of art into something different than to examine the ideas it presents.

Far better choice?  Not likely.  Not from where I'm standing.

You do know, the fact that I don't agree with your, and other people's, view of Synthesis doesn't mean I don't understand it.  On the contrary, what I believe you are speaking of is Synthesis as the instant achievement of pure elightenment across the galaxy.  In a microsecond, every living thing just became Gautama Buddha.

The thing is, you are interpreting just as we are.  The bolded part above is not in the game.  She says point blank, peace across the galaxy.  And considering that montage looks like it's decades of advancement going as she talks says it's not for a short amount of time.  You simply choose to look at it and see it a different way.  You hear the words peace, knowledge and immortality and think "Sign me up!  That sounds wonderful."  But what was the cost to organic life to achieve it?  What did they lose?  No matter what the prize, sometimes the price to gain it is far too high.

Where you see enlightment, I see an abomination of life.  I see at the very best a hive mind across the galaxy and the loss of privacy forced on me.  At worst, the loss of free will/thought for a fraud utopia of Stepford beings in a literal re-programming of every living thing.  Instant galaxy-wide peace without discussion?  Without dissent?  Without conflict?  You couldn't get that across our planet but now you're talking about trillions upon trillions of disparate species across the entire galaxy so different that we may not even see them as being alive?  Instantaneously? 

People always speak of the EDI voice-over, but of course her voiceover is going to be beautiful and a thing of wonder.  She has gained -everything- and lost nothing.  It is the perspective of the machine having reached its ulimate goal.   You can't use her viewpoint as a true representation of this choice.  Just as Shepard's voiceover for "control" is meaningless.  Of course he sees himself as the protector of the galaxy and a force for good, but you can't take his viewpoint as a valid one.  I'm sure people don't become dictators thinking "I'm a monster ... I'm a living horror".  And again for Hackett's voiceover.  Destroy is the soldier's choice to sacrifice the few to save the overwhelmingly many; it is what they do on a daily basis.

Modifié par Manton-X2, 29 juin 2012 - 09:14 .

[memorysquid]

Manton-X2 wrote...

memorysquid wrote...

Pretty much anything can lift the scales from your eyes.  Yeah it gives you new perceptions which changes you.  Hopefully so will my post.  Should I have given you an informed consent form before I began posting?  It's a non-trivial change you are blasting out over the galaxy, sure.  It's also a far better choice than the alternatives.

--snip--

OK, well that is a fine critique of ME3.  Personally the idea that advanced races would be likely to conflict with organic races is nonsense.  I think advancement lessens the likelihood of violent conflict; not ensures it.  My beef is that rather than critiquing the writing, people keep trying to change the story into something else to fit their narrative.  It's easier for them to change an easily and commonly referenced work of art into something different than to examine the ideas it presents.

Far better choice?  Not likely.  Not from where I'm standing.

You do know, the fact that I don't agree with your, and other people's, view of Synthesis doesn't mean I don't understand it.  On the contrary, what I believe you are speaking of is Synthesis as the instant achievement of pure elightenment across the galaxy.  In a microsecond, every living thing just became Gautama Buddha.

The thing is, you are interpreting just as we are.  The bolded part above is not in the game.  She says point blank, peace across the galaxy.  And considering that montage looks like it's decades of advancement going as she talks says it's not for a short amount of time.  You simply choose to look at it and see it a different way.  You hear the words peace, knowledge and immortality and think "Sign me up!  That sounds wonderful."  But what was the cost to organic life to achieve it?  What did they lose?  No matter what the prize, sometimes the price to gain it is far too high.

Where you see enlightment, I see an abomination of life.  I see at the very best a hive mind across the galaxy and the loss of privacy forced on me.  At worst, the loss of free will/thought for a fraud utopia of Stepford beings in a literal re-programming of every living thing.  Instant galaxy-wide peace without discussion?  Without dissent?  Without conflict?  You couldn't get that across our planet but now you're talking about trillions upon trillions of disparate species across the entire galaxy so different that we may not even see them as being alive?  Instantaneously? 

People always speak of the EDI voice-over, but of course her voiceover is going to be beautiful and a thing of wonder.  She has gained -everything- and lost nothing.  It is the perspective of the machine having reached its ulimate goal.   You can't use her viewpoint as a true representation of this choice.  Just as Shepard's voiceover for "control" is meaningless.  Of course he sees himself as the protector of the galaxy and a force for good, but you can't take his viewpoint as a valid one.  I'm sure people don't become dictators thinking "I'm a monster ... I'm a living horror".  And again for Hackett's voiceover.  Destroy is the soldier's choice to sacrifice the few to save the overwhelmingly many; it is what they do on a daily basis.

EDI's voice over is the narration of the results of synthesis up to some given point in time.  If you reject that, we aren't discussing ME3 any longer.  She directly says that synthesis helps overcome the old conflicts; that's why I offered the part you bolded above.  She doesn't say that all life has become a preReaper upgrade Geth-style hivemind and doesn't imply it either.  Her personal narration actively implies otherwise.

It doesn't even imply everyone just achieved Nirvana.  EDI is plain as day on what it actually achieves which is instant historical access to billions of years worth of some immense number of memories to help avoid old mistakes, plus the possibility of immortality, plus whatever else she actually SAYS it does.  Shepard's voiceover for control is perfectly useful; it doesn't tell you how he will behave in the far future, sure - it tells you his intent and circumstance now.  Renegade Shep is scary; Paragon Shep less so.

You can feel free to doubt the testimony of every narrator in the game.  However, given what the authors have actually said, there is no reason whatsoever to do so.

[Aylyese]

memorysquid wrote...

Aylyese wrote...

Having ones free will subverted by synthesis makes it even more abhorrent than it already was by creating the bigoted ideal that everyone would be fine and war would stop if we were all the same.

See, you can have public health and think Synthesis is morally objectional.

Where does the game imply synthesis makes everyone the same?  War would stop if people had more empathy and a broader base of knowledge, sure; which is what the game says synthesis entails.  Not the same things at all though.

You could also think synthesis is morally permissible and that socialism isn't.

A broader base of knowledge should not change a persons biases. Even the pre-synthesis fully synthetic geth could not always reach a consensus. The non-heretics solution to this was to either re-write or destroy the heretic geth, a decision they left up to you of course, but it matters not. The only way that Synthesis can create this lasting peace and solve overpopulation and blah blah is by modification far beyond simple access to the same knowledge.

Again, we as a collective can't even agree on one thing in one thread. The idea that suddenly the whole universe will no longer have different opinions is implausable without making everyone the same.

Modifié par Aylyese, 30 juin 2012 - 05:11 .

[Hackulator]

Aylyese wrote...

Again, we as a collective can't even agree on one thing in one thread. The idea that suddenly the whole universe will no longer have different opinions is implausable without making everyone the same.

Remember, that the races of the galaxy have already joined together. Synthesis does not need to bring about peace, it jsut needs to maintain it, and which the additional capabilities granted by Synthesis combined with the amazing tech the Reapers can provide, the majority of the causes for conflict coulf be nullified.

[Aylyese]

Hackulator wrote...

Aylyese wrote...

Again, we as a collective can't even agree on one thing in one thread. The idea that suddenly the whole universe will no longer have different opinions is implausable without making everyone the same.

Remember, that the races of the galaxy have already joined together. Synthesis does not need to bring about peace, it jsut needs to maintain it, and which the additional capabilities granted by Synthesis combined with the amazing tech the Reapers can provide, the majority of the causes for conflict coulf be nullified.

Some of the mature races of the galaxy, yes. And that only happened because their were under threat. And not just threat of attack, the reapers had to actually be attacking their planets before they would dedicate any army to the cause. Even you rbest friend ever Wrex wouldn't help without payment. Payment the Salarians wanted sabotaged, And who held together this fractious alliance? The person you just threw in a beam to turn them all into reapers without their permission. 

 A whole bunch of other races are about to join in as well, such as the Yahg, and who knows who else. The ideal utopian world created by Synthesis is so simplistic in presentation that it cannot explain every single variable without implying manipulation beyond what a reasonable person would permit.

[LilyasAvalon]

ediskrad327 wrote...

"and when everyone is super... nobody will be"

[arkonite167]

The catalyst tells shepard that synthesis is inevitable anyways so..

[Aylyese]

arkonite167 wrote...

The catalyst tells shepard that synthesis is inevitable anyways so..

Possibly. But evolution is a slow process, no one was EVER going to make it because he kept killing everyone every 50,000 years!

Besides, playing god to speed it up to stop a psychopathic computer from killing everyone is just a special level of stupidity. They might as well have had the catalyst tell you to bend over and take it like a man.

Modifié par Aylyese, 30 juin 2012 - 09:23 .

[Rip504]

Synthesis has a similar effect on the galaxy as Control has on Shepard.

The man or women I once was thought this way etc.

Hackulator wrote...

Honestly, if you woke up tomorrow and someone had given you superpowers while you slept without telling you,
would you really be mad? 

"You" do not wake up tomorrow.
Another person with the memories of who they once were wakes up. It changes you completely,meaning you are no longer the same person.

Having "super powers" will change the way you think,act,live,etc.

Modifié par Rip504, 30 juin 2012 - 09:33 .

[Fyurian2]

matchboxmatt wrote...

If you knew that someone was about to change the very nature of your being, granting you immortality in exchange for your humanity, would you be fine with that?

What is your humanity?
Is it simply flesh and blood, or more than that?

Are you saying that people who rely on prosthetics in place of their original body parts are lesser than someone without artificial limbs or implanted devices?

[SMichelle]

Fyurian2 wrote...

matchboxmatt wrote...

If you knew that someone was about to change the very nature of your being, granting you immortality in exchange for your humanity, would you be fine with that?

What is your humanity?
Is it simply flesh and blood, or more than that?

Are you saying that people who rely on prosthetics in place of their original body parts are lesser than someone without artificial limbs or implanted devices?

Being immortal will change how you act and think.  Even in ME1 Liara comments that our relatively short life spans is what makes humans so exciting.  We don't have time to sit around and debate like the Asari, we need to act.

Diversity is what makes the universe great.  I think immortality will just lead to stagnation. 

[memorysquid]

Aylyese wrote...

A broader base of knowledge should not change a persons biases. Even the pre-synthesis fully synthetic geth could not always reach a consensus. The non-heretics solution to this was to either re-write or destroy the heretic geth, a decision they left up to you of course, but it matters not. The only way that Synthesis can create this lasting peace and solve overpopulation and blah blah is by modification far beyond simple access to the same knowledge.

Again, we as a collective can't even agree on one thing in one thread. The idea that suddenly the whole universe will no longer have different opinions is implausable without making everyone the same.

Well of course it would.  Biases are formed in ignorance.  It is hard to remain ignorant intentionally; once you understand why you were wrong, it is impossible to turn back.  The pre-synth Geth couldn't form a consensus due to a math error.  The writers tried to explain away the difference of opinion as non-contradictory, but they failed.  1.38883 is not equal to 1.38882; the Geth heretics were simply wrong.

Nowhere in the game is it implied everyone will have the same opinions on everything.  They all just have access to exactly what the game tells you they have access to.  Stop strawmanning.

[Aylyese]

memorysquid wrote...

Well of course it would.  Biases are formed in ignorance.  It is hard to remain ignorant intentionally; once you understand why you were wrong, it is impossible to turn back.  The pre-synth Geth couldn't form a consensus due to a math error.  The writers tried to explain away the difference of opinion as non-contradictory, but they failed.  1.38883 is not equal to 1.38882; the Geth heretics were simply wrong.

Nowhere in the game is it implied everyone will have the same opinions on everything.  They all just have access to exactly what the game tells you they have access to.  Stop strawmanning.

Rubbish. I have a bias to coca cola because I prefer the taste. I certainly don't think people who have a Pepsi bias are suffering from ignorance. Perhaps you do, but that would say more about you than them.

But now you are just being silly. Will we have different biases based upon our own different opinions or not? Because you just argued for and against it.

And the writers are right about synth being utopian perfection in a nutshell, but not the geth heretics. Wtf?

Modifié par Aylyese, 30 juin 2012 - 04:45 .

[ImperatorMortis]

I didn't like Synthesis, but I'm not gonna lie. If I woke up with powers that would be pretty sweet.

[ArchDuck]

Hackulator wrote...

Honestly, if you woke up tomorrow and someone had given you superpowers while you slept without telling you, would you really be mad? 

This thread was flawed from the begining: synthesis =/= super powers.

[Fyurian2]

SMichelle wrote...

Fyurian2 wrote...

matchboxmatt wrote...

If you knew that someone was about to change the very nature of your being, granting you immortality in exchange for your humanity, would you be fine with that?

What is your humanity?
Is it simply flesh and blood, or more than that?

Are you saying that people who rely on prosthetics in place of their original body parts are lesser than someone without artificial limbs or implanted devices?

Being immortal will change how you act and think.  Even in ME1 Liara comments that our relatively short life spans is what makes humans so exciting.  We don't have time to sit around and debate like the Asari, we need to act.

Diversity is what makes the universe great.  I think immortality will just lead to stagnation. 

In no way does that answer the questions I asked.
I agree with what you said, but it doesn't address the issue of a person's humanity.

[3Minotaur3]

Synthesis:
Suddently, you've been changed without your consent... You have no idea how it happens and what that change will do to you, outside the aesthetic part... Perharps it's a blessing, perhaps it's a curse, perhaps it's both, compared to what you was before... You'll have to learn what it is to be the new you. And how to live with your new capabilities and perhaps limitations... Etc...

All that, assuming your memories and consciousness are still intact and fully your own, after the Synthesis... That's a big if...

Think of it like one day, you're you, the next someone turn you into a 'robocop-like'... Will you grief? Adapt? Revolt? Embrace the change? Etc...

[ThatDancingTurian]

Can we talk for a minute about Synthesis connecting people's minds?

Say everyone is Synthesized and now we're all connected. Now when you go to have dinner with your parents, you're going to know what they look like naked. If they're thinking about it at the time, you could end up catching memories of them having sex and depending on how thought transfer works, feel like it's actually you there. If you've had awkward family dinners before, you haven't seen anything yet.

What if you pass by a serial killer and then you get the memories/fantasies of everyone he's tortured and murdered?

What if mental illness becomes contagious?

What if thought crime becomes a thing?

What if thought police then becomes a thing?

What if we can no longer establish the boundaries between our minds and we all become one because we can no longer control our own individuality?

It's like Pandora's Box, it's filled with unimaginable horrors.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 30 juin 2012 - 11:45 .

[Ryzaki]

Ugh that's probably why there isn't any crime. Everyone has the memory of being the victims (and perpetrators) of every crime (vicious or no) known to man if they share thoughts.

*shivers*

People don't openly share memories for damn good reasons.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 juin 2012 - 11:43 .

[savionen]

They're all smiling in the ending because otherwise they'll get taken away by the thought police.... Think happy thoughts. Think happy thoughts...

[Ryzaki]

Wait...does that mean EVERYONE shares the Reapers knowlege of harvesting countless lives? Reaper processing centers and stuff? Or did the Reapers omit that knowledge from being shared?

Because if it was shared the mind boggles on how they're peaceful with the Reapers. It really does.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Ryzaki wrote...

Wait...does that mean EVERYONE shares the Reapers knowlege of harvesting countless lives? Reaper processing centers and stuff? Or did the Reapers omit that knowledge from being shared?

Because if it was shared the mind boggles on how they're peaceful with the Reapers. It really does.

Can they share minds with husks? Do they know what it feels like to be murdered, mutilated and then turned into a zombie?

[Hackulator]

Rip504 wrote...

"You" do not wake up tomorrow.
Another person with the memories of who they once were wakes up. It changes you completely,meaning you are no longer the same person.

Everything we are told, and shown says this is wrong. You are now just headcanoning Synthesis to make it worse so you can justify hating it.

[Ryzaki]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...
Can they share minds with husks? Do they know what it feels like to be murdered, mutilated and then turned into a zombie?

Poor horror movie material. Seriously.

Imagine knowing how it felt to be changed into a Cannibal. Just...so much geniunely scary as **** stuff in Synthesis that's completely glossed over.

[ThatDancingTurian]

Hackulator wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

"You" do not wake up tomorrow.
Another person with the memories of who they once were wakes up. It changes you completely,meaning you are no longer the same person.

Everything we are told, and shown says this is wrong. You are now just headcanoning Synthesis to make it worse so you can justify hating it.

Javik thinks benign EDI should be thrown out the airlock just for being Synthetic. Next thing you know he's standing there totally okay with his synthetic alterations. EDI said she finds the Reapers and their motives an abomination. Now she's singing praises to what is essentially the same thing.

In a current poll, 75% of people say they would not consent to Synthesis. That's a lot of unhappy people. Yet EDI implies that there is universal peace, harmony and happiness.

The only way that's possible is if Synthesis changes their minds for them. They're all Stepford Wives now.