61 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalas Magnus]

They need a buff?

They are clearly overpowered and will be hit by a nerf soon enough.

[killacwalka3]

All calculations assume no passive ability bonuses, or bonuses from equipment. Max damage specialization always taken. Extra shrapnel evolution ignored on inferno grenade because unsure of practical effect. Not sure if inferno grenade has inherent armor bonus like warp, reave and incinerate. May actually be 1.5 times more effective versus armor. Average damage assumes that shields and barrier are roughly equivalent, and a roughly equal distribution between health, shields/barrier, and armor. Also assumes 2/3 of enemies are organic.

Arc Grenades - (4a, 5b, 6a) Armor: 1181 + 315 over 10-s.
                                              Shields and barrier: 2025 + 540 over 10-s.
                                              Health: 675 + 180 over 10-s.
                                              Average: 1293.67 + 345 over 10-s = 1638.67 total damage
                                              8-m radius

                          (4a, 5b, 6b) Armor and health: 675 + 180 over 10-s.
                                              Shields: 3543 + 945 over 10-s.
                                              Barrier: 2025 + 540 over 10-s.
                                              Average: 1378 + 367.5 pver 10-s = 1745.5 total damage
                                              8-m radius

Frag Grenades - Armor OR Shields: 1687 + 656 over 10-s if target is organic.
                            Everything else: 1125 + 375 over 10-s if target is organic.
                            Average: 1312.33 + 312.44 over 10-s = 1624.77 total damage
                            6.5-m radius

Lift Grenades - 1350 Damage with a 6-s lift effect against 1 enemy with only health.
                          6.5-m radius

Cluster Grenades - 1000 Damage and 2000 Force w/ 2 Shrapnel, or 750 Damage and 1500 Force w/ 3 Shrapnel.
                               Both can have double damage against enemies affected by Lift and Singularity.
                               3-shrap = 2250 total damage and 4500 total force, 2-shrap = 2000 total damage and 4000 total force.
                               4-m Radius

Sticky Grenades - Armor: 2137.5. Everything else: 1425.
                              Average: 1662.5.
                              2-m Radius.

Inferno Grenade - Armor: 356.25 DPS over 8-s (2850 total). Everything else: 237.5 DPS over 8-s (1900 total).
                              Average: 277.08 DPS over 8-s (2216.67 total)
                              5-m Radius.





Arc Grenades deal more damage to shields and barriers than any other grenade. They also have the largest radius and prime for tech bursts. Taking the armor damage upgrade makes them comparable to frags without the armor damage upgrade against armor. They do lag in damage against health, so you need to combo or cloak to effectively take out groups of weak enemies on gold.

They compare on average damage with both frag and sticky which they have higher AOE than. The only grenades that they lag behind in damage potential are cluster grenades, which many have trouble reliably aiming and inferno grenades, which require time to deal their damage.

I do not see why Arc Grenades would need a buff, they are designed to strip shields and cover a large AOE. They do this very well, possibly too well. If anything they may need a nerf. It is a specialist type ability, it is not supposed to be good versus everything. Its like an overload grenade, when you get them down to health, just shoot them unless you need crowd control.


If any grenade needs buffed, it is the lift grenade.

Modifié par killacwalka3, 28 juin 2012 - 08:59 .

[mybudgee]

Op: you are a crack up!

Modifié par mybudgee, 28 juin 2012 - 09:02 .

[Holy-Hamster]

 

Arc grenades need a buff

and Infiltrators are broken

I love these forums 

[GameKillerFT]

killacwalka3 wrote..

Arc Grenades deal more damage to shields and barriers than any other grenade. They also have the largest radius and prime for tech bursts. Taking the armor damage upgrade makes them comparable to frags without the armor damage upgrade against armor. They do lag in damage against health, so you need to combo or cloak to effectively take out groups of weak enemies on gold.

 GameKillerFT wrote... Not totally true, Arc grenades do alot of anti-shield damage yes, but frags can do the same or slightly less than if rank 6 upgrade is put for shields instead of armor. Also, frags need the armor upgrade to be in conjecture with Arc grenade with armor upgrade.

They compare on average damage with both frag and sticky which they have higher AOE than. The only grenades that they lag behind in damage potential are cluster grenades, which many have trouble reliably aiming and inferno grenades, which require time to deal their damage.

GameKillerFT wrote... Wrong agian, Based on max damage build, Arc Grenades deal around 800 damage to basic enemies, not including armor or over time damage upgrades. Frags deal about 1300, 500 more than Arc, they both have the opion for 75% agianst armor. Sticky take home with 1700, and Lift with 1600, up to 600 to 800 more. Cluster lag at 1100 but are closer to Arc than Inferno which hold at 300, they are over time as we both know. 

I do not see why Arc Grenades would need a buff, they are designed to strip shields and cover a large AOE. They do this very well, possibly too well. If anything they may need a nerf. It is a specialist type ability, it is not supposed to be good versus everything. Its like an overload grenade, when you get them down to health, just shoot them unless you need crowd control.

GameKillerFT wrote... Arc grenades need a buff and a nerf. As do Sticky. Arc need a damage buff and a radius nerf if anything. While Sticky need a radius increase of about 2-4 meters to be close to par with others, otherwise they are limited to effective when stuck to targets.

If any grenade needs buffed, it is the lift grenade.

The Lift grenades needs untouched for now, it stands at 1500-1600 damage and a minimum radius of 5m and max at 7 or 8. Its fine, you just want it to be over powered because you like it.

[Farmtech-Ru]

buff arc grenades? How about convert them into cobra ammo?

[GameKillerFT]

Farmtech-Ru wrote...

buff arc grenades? How about convert them into cobra ammo?

 hmm an idea

[.458]

Your point on geth vision is apples and oranges for comparison of male quarian tactical scan. Tac scan is team, and for everyone, and only momentary. Geth vision is a single player benefit, full time hunter mode.

My own alert to BW: Please add more team skills, these should never be nerfed when they help everyone.

[Hyunsai]

Buffing Arc grenades.

Ok guys, this is getting ridiculous.

[ABjerre]

xtorma wrote...

ABjerre wrote...

Ciam wrote...

Arc Grenades need a buff ...

Stopped to read...

Well, looking at the raw damage, the man does have a point... I personally think it is fine as they are with the stun effect 'n all, but damage wise, they are on the light end of the scale.

don't they have a much larger radius?

I guess I don't understand how balance is supposed to work. I always thought the whole idea was that if you raise one aspect of something, another aspect must be reduced to keep balance.

Yes, they do have a slightly larger radius. That coupled with the stun effect and the ability to set off tech combos, makes them quite effective as they are, even with the lower damage - as it balances things out.

We agree on what "balance" is: In order to gain one benefit, one must denounce another. "Cost and benefit" could also be used to describe it.

One could however argue that the reduced base damage is a steep price to pay for to benefit of a slightly larger radius and the ability to stun - its not like the other (and more powerfull grenades) doesn't have secondary attributes too: damage over time (panic), sticky, ect.

I use them mainly for their ability to stun, as means of escaping a tight spot if i get swarmed (cloak -> grenade -> run -> grenade -> run some more), and for that purpose, they are fantastic. I am not in favour of any kind of further balancing to them, as i think they are in a very good place right now.

Modifié par ABjerre, 28 juin 2012 - 11:16 .

[killacwalka3]

GameKillerFT, did you even look at the calculated damage? I calculated the damage per each health type based upon how the game calculates damage from code. Then damage for each type against health, shields/barriers, and armor was averaged out to determine a rough average damage of each grenade.

Arc grenade does an innate triple damage to shields and barriers. A level 3 Arc Grenade only does 57 less direct damage to shields than a Frag Grenade speced for maximum shield damage. If you go for for armor damage on Arc grenades it still does 222 more damage to Shields than a maxed Shield damage frag grenade on organic targets while doing only 2 less to armor on organic targets.

You discuss Arc Grenades poor damage versus health but ignore my point about it being a specialized power. It isn't supposed to be good against health. If they have just health use it for CC and kill them with your gun. Or cloak before you throw the grenade or hit them with incinerate after for a tech burst. If they just have health, hell just hit them with incinerate and mow them down while they are on fire and save the grenade for later.

Arc Grenade is overpowered because it has the same damage potential as the frag grenade, a larger radius and can prime tech bursts, but loses some utility based upon the damage distribution. Sticky Grenade is underpowered, because it has a much lower radius than the frag grenade with the same damage potential, but 6b proximity trap does give it some more utility. Lift grenade doesn't work right because the lift effect only applies to 1 target.

Earlier you suggested being upset that powers are too similar. But your suggestions would take a very powerful, completely unique power and make it much more like the completely average and unspectacular Frag Grenade.

Modifié par killacwalka3, 28 juin 2012 - 11:21 .

[GameKillerFT]

killacwalka3 wrote...

GameKillerFT, did you even look at the calculated damage? I calculated the damage per each health type based upon how the game calculates damage from code. Then damage for each type against health, shields/barriers, and armor was averaged out to determine a rough average damage of each grenade.

Arc grenade does an innate triple damage to shields and barriers. A level 3 Arc Grenade only does 57 less direct damage to shields than a Frag Grenade speced for maximum shield damage. If you go for for armor damage on Arc grenades it still does 222 more damage to Shields than a maxed Shield damage frag grenade on organic targets while doing only 2 less to armor on organic targets.

You discuss Arc Grenades poor damage versus health but ignore my point about it being a specialized power. It isn't supposed to be good against health. If they have just health use it for CC and kill them with your gun. Or cloak before you throw the grenade or hit them with incinerate after for a tech burst. If they just have health, hell just hit them with incinerate and mow them down while they are on fire and save the grenade for later.

Arc Grenade is overpowered because it has the same damage potential as the frag grenade, a larger radius and can prime tech bursts, but loses some utility based upon the damage distribution. Sticky Grenade is underpowered, because it has a much lower radius than the frag grenade with the same damage potential, but 6b proximity trap does give it some more utility. Lift grenade doesn't work right because the lift effect only applies to 1 target.

Earlier you suggested being upset that powers are too similar. But your suggestions would take a very powerful, completely unique power and make it much more like the completely average and unspectacular Frag Grenade.

You seem to be lost in context/translation with wat I'm saying. Arc grenades need a Damage Buff, Radius Nerf. Specialized power is a cop-out as all Characters have  powers made for a soul purpose. And Sticky grenades are the most powerful as I seen in my In-game testing on a Xbox, not PC programming, and Know that they are under powered because a low Radius, they need a Rduis Buff. Yes Arc grenades can stun, prime, and kill. So can Inferno at a slower rate, Lift and Cluster with blowback, Frag and Sticky with inital blast. Arc are not the only Specialized Grenade, just most effective agianst shileds.

I'm not upset as you said I am about all power being similar. My suggestion is not to make all powers the same, I want a diversity between them, but since BioWare does not, I'm just helping them. But I will make diversity come back in my Post Titled: Multiplayer Balance Bugs/Fixes/Glitches.
Example: While Hunter Mode is a one-person power for half shields, Tac Scan is only effective for any team member if they are in range. Hunter mode allows one to see at 24m while getting minimum damage boost and maximum speed. But 24m is not that far on many maps, I suggest bringing back Hunter Mode max vision range and leave the rest as is. Tac Scan can mark a target for easy tracking and damage boost. But 7.5% power or weapon damage is not that much nor should it be increased, but if I am at say Giant in the Control Room and a Tac Scanned target is marked on the other side of the map, I can Barely even see the Circle around the Marked target, and if they have the extra 20m radius, HM is 24m, you must be close to see an outlined enemy. So a Team Tac Scan is not very different for it has about the same range as Hunter Mode, that can remain, you have to be in specific range to see marked target, needs fixed, and thats the weak piont of the two. Hunter mode allows one at Long range, and Tac Scan allows four at close range for a few seconds per activaton, HM 24m, TS 20m, My new stat, HM at 30m, and TS at 20m, and improved lock-on at distance so I can see marked targets from anywhere not just half way.

This is balance, two simalar powers of damage and vision but at differnet range 20m, and 30m and duration 3seconds 20m, plus 46seconds,locked target at any range, thats if fixed, for team at no down fall, and 30m one team member at 50% reduced shields. If this is not getting through peoples heads then I think a voice xplaination would be easeir,but I can't do that here.