Aller au contenu

Photo

Why conventional victory should have been possible


419 réponses à ce sujet

#1
LaughingDragon

LaughingDragon
  • Members
  • 211 messages
*update*

The combined fleet strength of the Turians, Geth, Quarians, Asari, Alliance, Salarians, Racnhi, Batarians, various mercenary groups, and cerberus could have very plausibly defeated the reapers conventionally.

Think about how many ships you are talking about - with all of those fleets united as one, all of them focus-firing incredibly large and easy to hit targets (reaper capital ships). No matter how strong the reapers are, there's no way they could withstand that kind of focused and combined fire power. Ships could also just suicide fly into the reapers at full speed and kamikaze them down - set their mass effect drives to overload then fly into the reapers and explode.

Let's also not forget, that you would have tens of millions of genophage cured krogan ground troops winning the ground battles for you and they would be fighting harder than ever before now that they know the genophage is cured

And let's not forget, shepard stop sthe initial invasion through the citadel, and at the end of ME2 shepard gets specs on the reaper ships from the collector base so the galaxy would have had two significant tactical advantages over the reapers that previous cycles likely didn't have - retaining control of the most powerful space station in the galaxy and specs on the reapers so they could prepare etc.

Honestly guys, it's more implausible that the galaxy couldn't stop the reapers conventionally imo. In a rational ME universe, the only way the galaxy loses the cycle is if they are divided and don't unite to fight the reapers as one. 

*update* 

LaughingDragon wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

LaughingDragon wrote...

I may be mistaken, but wasn't it said that the rachni were so strong that they once threatened the entire galaxy? Sounds like a powerful ally to have on your side, maybe they could swarm reaper ships like the buzz droids from SW: ROTS or zerg from SC. 

During the final assault on earth, in the opening cinematic with the space battle - remember seeing how a few turian ships blew that reapers legs off? Seems like the reapers are not even close to invincible. 




Remember the scene of Palaven where areas the size of the eastern seaboard where ablaze? Pretty sure that was after the  "battle of Palaven", where those turians with their nonconventional methods, actually failed to stop the reapers or even really slow them down in a significant manner? Remember the scene as we left earth with all the debri from destroyed alliance ships floating around? Hey remember that scene where just after those turians blew off a finger/tenticle, that the turian ship was destroyed by that same reaper? 



Yes I remember the reaper destroying the same turian ship.

The way the game played out, yeah obviously there was no conventional way to win at that point because the fleet was too weak. But the team set up the whole game that way. What I was saying was, at the end of ME2, you had the geth/quarians not going to war, you had the racnhi building up like crazy for 2 staight years, you have the entire turian fleet intact, asari etc etc etc, so you unify the galaxy before it's too late and before you suffer all those heavy losses and then confront the reapers in one epic all-out winner takes all fight to save the galaxy...no mercy guns blazing to the death and yeah you might be able to overwhelm them and win conventionally.

Plus we had galactic command intact - the citadel was untaken, and the benefit of the collector base and reaper tech from there. And the reapers could never have won a ground war if you have the Krogan and Rachni both on your side.

imo, ME3 should have been about uniting the races of the galaxy against the reapers, and IF you made the right decisions your force would win and if not then there are other types of endings.





 

Modifié par LaughingDragon, 28 juin 2012 - 11:03 .


#2
arkonite167

arkonite167
  • Members
  • 35 messages
Attempting to beat the reapers with conventional warfare is like a flea climbing up an elephant's leg with intentions of rape.

#3
MadRabbit999

MadRabbit999
  • Members
  • 1 067 messages
Nope... in ME 1 it takes an insane amount of ships (All those available) to kill 1 reaper, and in ME we have about 10000+ reapers?

It is the equivalent of 10.000 man against 1 billion mosquitos... yes they will annoy, sting, and maybe even kill a person or 2, but no way they can win, it is physically impossible.

At least that is my opinion.

Catalyst says "You are VASTLY outnumbered, and you used all your resources to get here" meaning, that the war effort was only to grant a shield, nothing more, they were never meant to win.

Modifié par MadRabbit999, 28 juin 2012 - 07:38 .


#4
Oransel

Oransel
  • Members
  • 1 160 messages

arkonite167 wrote...

Attempting to beat the reapers with conventional warfare is like a flea climbing up an elephant's leg with intentions of rape.


Proofs, please. Besides "Hackett saying..." Numbers, please. Research.

#5
MaleQuariansFTW

MaleQuariansFTW
  • Members
  • 463 messages

arkonite167 wrote...

Attempting to beat the reapers with conventional warfare is like a flea climbing up an elephant's leg with intentions of rape.



I swear I saw that on Animal Planet.

#6
TheECP

TheECP
  • Members
  • 42 messages
I think you're assuming way too much about the strengths and weakness of these fleets and reapers, but don't forget what the galaxy map looked like by the end of the game, every single solar system was controlled by the reapers. All evidence suggests while individual reapers are not invincible, the sheer numbers and the fact that they have been successfully doing this for thousands of years makes it very unlikely the combined fleets could have won conventionally, and in my opinion it wouldn't have been as interesting.

#7
arkonite167

arkonite167
  • Members
  • 35 messages
According to the catalyst, 1 reaper gets created with every cycle and there have been countless cycles. That means there are countless reapers. Also, the reapers have potentially millions upon millions of years of advanced research for their ships. Another thing, the milky way inhabitants spent all their resources on building the crucible.

I'm not sure if you play starcraft, but the difference in resources is often a black and white deciding factor for the victor.

#8
Hvlukas

Hvlukas
  • Members
  • 248 messages

Oransel wrote...

arkonite167 wrote...

Attempting to beat the reapers with conventional warfare is like a flea climbing up an elephant's leg with intentions of rape.


Proofs, please. Besides "Hackett saying..." Numbers, please. Research.


Pics or it didn't happen.

#9
Oransel

Oransel
  • Members
  • 1 160 messages

arkonite167 wrote...

According to the catalyst, 1 reaper gets created with every cycle and there have been countless cycles. That means there are countless reapers. Also, the reapers have potentially millions upon millions of years of advanced research for their ships. Another thing, the milky way inhabitants spent all their resources on building the crucible.

I'm not sure if you play starcraft, but the difference in resources is often a black and white deciding factor for the victor.


We have no reason to believe starkid. He may be lying. Seriously, why people trust their hated enemy on the face value?

Research, yes, agree. But we have that research too. A lot of basic Reaper technology is already in our disposal.

Resources is strongest argument, but I am not talking about 1 battle = victory. Conventional victory in the long run war is possible, we have enough resources, especially if those bright minds will start working on actual firepower.

#10
KDD-0063

KDD-0063
  • Members
  • 544 messages
I don't think simple conventional victory without any additions is needed.

The problem is, in ME3, conventional warfare is irrelevant, the only thing left is that DEM with space magic, and that cheapens the entire galaxy.

#11
movieguyabw

movieguyabw
  • Members
  • 1 723 messages

Oransel wrote...

arkonite167 wrote...

Attempting to beat the reapers with conventional warfare is like a flea climbing up an elephant's leg with intentions of rape.


Proofs, please. Besides "Hackett saying..." Numbers, please. Research.


I agree.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Hackett is indoctrinated.  Unless you can give us evidence that there's no way for anyone (no matter how insanely high their EMS is) could ever beat the Reapers - that doesn't include Hackett or the Reapers telling you it can't be done - then there's no reason to say that it's impossible.

#12
arkonite167

arkonite167
  • Members
  • 35 messages
Why would the catalyst lie?

#13
OblivionDawn

OblivionDawn
  • Members
  • 2 549 messages

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Nope... in ME 1 it takes an insane amount of ships (All those available) to kill 1 reaper, and in ME we have about 10000+ reapers?

It is the equivalent of 10.000 man against 1 billion mosquitos... yes they will annoy, sting, and maybe even kill a person or 2, but no way they can win, it is physically impossible.


Pretty much the best way to describe it.

#14
Oransel

Oransel
  • Members
  • 1 160 messages

arkonite167 wrote...

Why would the catalyst lie?


Because he is insane genocidal AI who has already betrayed his own creators? Or maybe because he is using Indoctrination (lying) as his prime weapon? 

#15
Horaciuss

Horaciuss
  • Members
  • 5 messages

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Nope... in ME 1 it takes an insane amount of ships (All those available) to kill 1 reaper, and in ME we have about 10000+ reapers?

It is the equivalent of 10.000 man against 1 billion mosquitos... yes they will annoy, sting, and maybe even kill a person or 2, but no way they can win, it is physically impossible.

At least that is my opinion.

Catalyst says "You are VASTLY outnumbered, and you used all your resources to get here" meaning, that the war effort was only to grant a shield, nothing more, they were never meant to win.


ehmmm no:huh: Even ingame codex saying opposite.

Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the
Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy.
This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence,
weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.

In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold
off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly
causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons
designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better
results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.

The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a
capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to
disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they
are themselves destroyed.

There is more, but you can read it there alone;)

#16
LaughingDragon

LaughingDragon
  • Members
  • 211 messages

OblivionDawn wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Nope... in ME 1 it takes an insane amount of ships (All those available) to kill 1 reaper, and in ME we have about 10000+ reapers?

It is the equivalent of 10.000 man against 1 billion mosquitos... yes they will annoy, sting, and maybe even kill a person or 2, but no way they can win, it is physically impossible.


Pretty much the best way to describe it.


You are leaving out an important consideration... In ME1 sovereign has the entire geth fleet backing it up. It isn't all our ships vs just sovereign . The geth are there in full force within entire fleet.

#17
Allan Schumacher

Allan Schumacher
  • BioWare Employees
  • 7 640 messages

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Hackett is indoctrinated. Unless you can give us evidence that there's no way for anyone (no matter how insanely high their EMS is) could ever beat the Reapers - that doesn't include Hackett or the Reapers telling you it can't be done - then there's no reason to say that it's impossible.


I've seen the EMS argument come up a fair bit, but I think from a purely optics point of view you have to be careful.

Fans were already livid with the EMS issue that required more than just the single player experience to achieve all the endings. Requiring them to grind and promote the multiplayer game so that 7 billion EMS score defeats the reapers would not at all be well received.

#18
Warrior Craess

Warrior Craess
  • Members
  • 723 messages
man I kid you not, this conventional war win stuff is getting to be annoying.

but rather than repeat the same arguments as before, please explain to me, just who an unprepared, Woefully ignorant galaxy is supposed to unite in the 11th hour to defeat a foe that has numerical, technological and logistical superiority?

What preparation has been done? Where are the hidden stockpiles of weapons, food/water, medical supplies etc...? Where are the extra hidden warships (specifically dreadnoughts) that we can use to keep our fighting strength up? Where are the anti-indoctrination devices? Where is the indoctrination screening?

Conventional warfare against the reapers is a certain loss. The foundations of this were set in the timeline between ME2 and ME 3. And in the attitudes of the council and politicians of all the races.

#19
OblivionDawn

OblivionDawn
  • Members
  • 2 549 messages

LaughingDragon wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

MadRabbit999 wrote...

Nope... in ME 1 it takes an insane amount of ships (All those available) to kill 1 reaper, and in ME we have about 10000+ reapers?

It is the equivalent of 10.000 man against 1 billion mosquitos... yes they will annoy, sting, and maybe even kill a person or 2, but no way they can win, it is physically impossible.


Pretty much the best way to describe it.


You are leaving out an important consideration... In ME1 sovereign has the entire geth fleet backing it up. It isn't all our ships vs just sovereign . The geth are there in full force within entire fleet.


Yes, but eventually a large number of ships are in the Citadel, alone with Sovereign, and he still tears them apart until Shepard kills Saren, disrupting Sovereign's shields.

#20
Oransel

Oransel
  • Members
  • 1 160 messages

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Hackett is indoctrinated. Unless you can give us evidence that there's no way for anyone (no matter how insanely high their EMS is) could ever beat the Reapers - that doesn't include Hackett or the Reapers telling you it can't be done - then there's no reason to say that it's impossible.


I've seen the EMS argument come up a fair bit, but I think from a purely optics point of view you have to be careful.

Fans were already livid with the EMS issue that required more than just the single player experience to achieve all the endings. Requiring them to grind and promote the multiplayer game so that 7 billion EMS score defeats the reapers would not at all be well received.


I somewhat agree, but here is the thing. Fans can go 2 ways to win. Grind their teeth to get those insane numbers of EMS and win conventionally OR take the easy route and shoot the Crucible. Both ways end in victory, but perspective is slightly changed.

#21
RDSFirebane

RDSFirebane
  • Members
  • 433 messages
Well seeing how if you pick the refusal ending the little stargazer scene pretty much says they defeated the reapers thanks to L's little black box. Its obviously possible at some point in time so I fail to see why this cycle couldn't have achieved it at heavy cost.

And seeing how we seem to be getting a rouge reaper War asset in the up coming DLC I still fail to see why it wouldn't be possible.

#22
Allan Schumacher

Allan Schumacher
  • BioWare Employees
  • 7 640 messages
It's one thing to feel that a conventional victory is possible. Unlocking it due to heavy multiplayer use is something that I don't think I'd be able to get behind.

I think it's safe to say that the fans have spoken on how they feel about the multiplayer experience affecting their single player game.

#23
the slynx

the slynx
  • Members
  • 669 messages

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fans were already livid with the EMS issue that required more than just the single player experience to achieve all the endings. Requiring them to grind and promote the multiplayer game so that 7 billion EMS score defeats the reapers would not at all be well received.


True enough, but that's the system that's already in place in the game. What else could feasibly be used? Plot point checks would be another fashion, but that inconveniences anyone who hasn't played through the whole trilogy on a save (such as all PS3 owners) or those who lost/had their saves corrupted.

#24
Armass81

Armass81
  • Members
  • 2 762 messages

Oransel wrote...

arkonite167 wrote...

Attempting to beat the reapers with conventional warfare is like a flea climbing up an elephant's leg with intentions of rape.


Proofs, please. Besides "Hackett saying..." Numbers, please. Research.


All i can say is the numbers aint in our favor...

#25
Oransel

Oransel
  • Members
  • 1 160 messages

Warrior Craess wrote...

The foundations of this were set in the timeline between ME2 and ME 3.


Here is where the problems begin. ME3 plot with Crucible does not belong to the lore. That is the route of all problems, tbh.