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[IanPolaris]

Warrior Craess wrote...

sigh. 

Cosidering that you can't advance the game with out accomplishing some of that; That choosing all the worst possible endins leaves the Galaxy completey fubared;and that Mordin sacrificing himself, or getting killed by Shepard; that Tali committs suicide or kills legion are all touching scenes, I'm going to have to call BS on that. 

While there are somethings left out, that I would have loved to see, the endings are different depending on how you played the series.  

The endings are better than they were yes, but ultimately the only choice that matters is whether you use the crucible or not.  You do you win.  You don't you lose.

EMS has nothing to do with it.

That's the problem.

-Polaris

[I Ryukage I]

If you didn't spend the entirety of ME3 building a MacGuffin, if everyone would have believed Shepard years ago, etc., etc., conventional means would possibly be an option. I would believe it to be so. You delayed them (all though its wasted because no one believed Shepard's Story in ME1), ME2 you may have some attican traverse/terminus support possibly, and once again Reapers slightly delayed in the Arrival DLC, I think its a long shot, but it could have worked. Would have possibly had the most casualty count, more than DESTROY ending, but still possibly could have won.

[I Ryukage I]

Anyone who thinks you could have won at the end of ME3 by refusing, are being blinded by rage... i dunno something. All your resources are shot on building the crucible, yes we have data from ME2 and ME1, but by that time in ME3, nothing was planned, it was basically everyone charge to Earth... why ? I dont know, maybe because its a symbol of Humanity? Their first homeworld like Palaven (sp?), regardless, no they could not have won by that moment at the very end of ME3 when speaking to the kid.

[eye basher]

the reapers can't be beat conventionaly why:

1-The reapers don't have to fight conventional battles they have overwhelming power simple brute force they see a defense line they bulldooze their way past it and you can't stop them as the Alliance found out.

2-The reapers have no supply lines you can't starve them because they came to harvest the galaxy they are taking your supplys your material and using it against you.

3-The reapers bring no soldiers with them beacause you are supplying them with soldiers they can replace there loses easily simply by taking yours.

4-The reapers can afford to take their time in a system because the longer they are there the more people they indoctrinate which again is taking manpower away from you and those they indoctrinate can be used as sleeper agents against you and you have no way of knowing.

[Zuka999]

What kind of game doesn't let you win? Its insulting being told over and over again that the only way to win is to use a superweapon - one that doesn't make any sense as a story element anyways. "Oh hey, we found this superweapon in Mars all of a sudden, and we don't know what it does at all, but lets put literally everything we have into it. We're doomed otherwise even though we have no evidence that that's true LoL!"

Its just lazy writing and entirely unsatisfying as a story.

[Warrior Craess]

ArchDuck wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

If we are going to be all "Nu uh you can't do that because its not realistic!". Then please explain the "realism" in shooting a tube to turn something on one way, electrocuting yourself to turn it on another way and jumping into a disintegrating beam of energy to turn it on a third way. And while your at it explain how these long lost plans have been the only piece of information successfully passed down from one cycle to the next. Then explain the "realism" in the effects on the galaxy when those magic buttons on the magic machine are used.

To illustrate my previous post's point:

Hackett: No, no, of course you can't destroy Reapers with tactics and technology like we have already seen. You must use the magic boomstick that we are building and do not understand.

Scientist #1: Are you sure we should be investing all of our resources into building this? Imagine the amount of destroyer class thanix weapons we could produce. And I think I can see a way to use the plans to provide enough power to even smaller ships so they can fire those class of weapons.

Military Guy #2: Yeah and the turian tactics sound like something we could definitely exploit. They managed to take out some of the large Reapers with no losses!

Former Cerberus Operative #3: And TIM was working on a way to scramble Reaper communications and even subvert it in the case of the husks.

Military Guy #2: Oh really? Man that would be useful. They wouldn't be coordinated in space battles and we would nullify there primary ground forces!

Scientist #1: We could really win this! 

Hackett: No it is impossible.

Former Cerberus Operative #3: No I think they are right, we can do it!

Hackett: SO BE IT! *shoots them all*

1) Killing several reapers, at great cost to yourself is not a good
indication of the ability to achieve victory. Killing reaper destroyers
indvidually also isn't a great indication of possible victory.

2) Just curious but where are you going to be making these upgrades?
How long is it going to take to retro-fit frigates and cruisers with
larger eezo cores? What happens when the reapers swoop by and destroy
that infrastructure?

3) Which turian tactics? the battle of Palaven - cause hate to tell you but, they took massive casualties and had to retreat.

4) This information wasn't actually available until after TIM and the
reaper had taken the citadel. Knowledge of it's existance it's not the
same as having the information

5) Umm it interupts the husk command link, not reaper communications.
So it wouldn't phase their coordination in space in the least, and as
soon as they track down the interferring signle, and destroy it, you are
faced with a whole bunch of husks again.. it's a reprieve at best, not a
woot now I only gotta fight reaper destroyers button.

Fixed it for you. 


Your failure is you think that somehow we constantly manage to gain superior intel, command and control, and that inflicting minor losses (yes minor) equates to the ability to win. 

Your also not accounting of the loss of infrastructure and workforce when the reapers decide that nothing in this cycle is worth salvaging, and they start killing planets and moving on.  Your forgetting that while space is vast, the number of places to actually get raw materials and sustanence items from is very limited. 

The reapers don't every have to engage us at all.  They simply have to starve us out. Something that they can quite easily do. 

1) The point is that they are not invincible, unstoppable or all knowing. Give them respect but defeating yourself before the main battle is a good way to guarantee you will lose. Hackett is a mediocre military commander who lost deployed military fleets in stupid and ineffective tactical choices.

2) If you can build something as large, costly and complex as the crucible you can manufacture thanix cannons. If they would be destroyed no matter what (as you imply) then the crucible also should never have reached completion.

3) Yes Turian tactics from the Battle of Palaven "Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships."

Also the Miracle of Pavalen "This allowed krogan commandos to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp bombs and fission weapons.
In simultaneous strikes across the globe, Reaper ships began to explode. Turian resistance members had managed to smuggle the bombs inside when the Reaper processing ships, troop transports, and even destroyers and capital ships had opened their structures to indoctrinated turian leaders."

4) It was available before the final battle and could be acquired.

5) If it can block on form of Reaper communication (master/slave) then it should be able to be altered to block another. Even if not, it is still useful. Also build more than one. Can be intergrated into various strategies which with the right timing could allow the destruction of multiple landed Reapers.


Also, in the future be kind enough not to deface my posts to make it look like something other then what I have said. Thank you.

I defaced your post so you'ld actually have a direct reply to your statements.  And still you ignore it. 

1) individually reapers can be beat, but so what? know I could beat Mike Tyson is not the same as knowing that once I beat him, I still have to beat a few thousand more of him.  yes hackett is a idiotic military leader, that doesn't make him wrong in his assessment of the situation. 

2) Ahh you missed the point. What happens to your ability to fight when the reapers have destroyed your manufacturing ability? 

3) willful ignorance does not change the fact that the turians lost the "Battle of Palaven", they failed to stop or even significantly delay the reapers and took massive casualties in the process.  here is the rest of the qoute for that batttle:  The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.The turians insist that Palaven is not lost--the battle has merely moved to the ground. Reaper troop transports have dumped hordes of husk to capture Palaven's inhabitants, but met with little success. Reaper capital ships are destroying city after city. But much of the turian fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians refuse to be intimidated.

The miracle of Palaven gave back large swaths of land, but didn't win the fight of Palaven, and it cost untold numbers of civilians.  Sadly there is an easy solution to all of that.  Quit indoctrinating, and start making husks out of everything. 

4) lol you mean it's available after the take down of Cerberus homebase... remind me again where we went next and why?  competely aside from the citadel being the catalyst, why was it important?  not becuase with direct control of it a reaper can turn off the relays? So exactly how much time did we have to convert documentation into implementation?  ohh wait, I know 0 times 0, carry the 0...

5) ahh yes, of course the reapers all use the same signal, it's the same frequency and everything. kind like we all use the citadel, and communication satelites to speak with each other. Wait, hey didn't the reapers destroy all the comms satelites around earth?  So how is it that Shepard is still able to talk to Anderson?  What there is a second type of comms that doesn't rely on satelites?  ohh so maybe assuming that the reapers only have one method of comms is a mistake. 

As for building more than one, sure go ahead.  So what happens when the reapers suddenly lose control of the various types of husks?  Pretty sure ignoring the problem isn't going to be the answer. And since they know what signal is being used, it would be fairly easy for them to triangulate where the interference is coming from and remove it.  like I said it's a reprieve for your ground forces nothing more. 


Don't assume that just becuase the writers of ME are not tactically profiecient that a conventional war is possible. 

[Aquilas]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Aquilas wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

 Well no. It shouldn't have been. You wanted it to be. There's a difference there.

Adding in a conventional victory goes against everything we've been told, by numerous sources, for 2.5 games. It goes directly against the lore of the story, and would make no sense whatsoever. 

A conventional victory is simply impossible and it's really, to be honest, about time people started understanding facts and not just keep carping on about wish fulfillment.

In otherwords we should be like Saren and give up.  Saren thought defeating the Reapers was impossible too....

-Polaris

Giving up? You mean, by pushing a button and winning? That's your definition of giving up now?

The simplest fact is this: You don't want to believe the Starbrat and push a button, feel free not to. Go ahead, fight conventionally. See what happ... oh, you lose. Well I'm sure that the last thought that goes through everyone in your crew's mind is "Boy, I'm sure glad Shepard didn't end this war forever and stood up for his morals and us all get slaughtered horribly."

People will sit there and say "Destroy is a war crime!" or "Control is a war crime!" or "Synthesis is a war crime!" but the truth of the matter is, Refusal is the biggest war crime of all... or it would be, if there were anyone alive left to prosecute you for it. You're damning TRILLIONS of beings to horrible horrible deaths because YOU think the Starbrat is trying to trick you for some reason that's never really quite explained.

It's not so much the sheer wrongness and inability to understand math and logic that irritate me so much, it's the unbridled arrogance that goes with it.

Good grief.  So Shepard can assure the greatest good for the greatest number by choosing to kill EDI, the Geth, and all their ilk after enabling them to truly feel alive; or by becoming what Shepard has been fighting for three games--an overweaning, suprapowerful, unstoppable force whose actions are solely dependent on the Uber Leader's personality traits, ne: whims, who can and will compel all lesser beings to do Its will--you can't cross ShepReap; or by eliminating, eradicating all diversity, all racial identity, by forcibly smashing organics and synthetics into the New Solution the Catalyst thinks is best?

I don't give a crap if Star-jar is being as honest as an Eagle Scout: I'm not going to commit genocide--EDI herself says she'd rather die than submit; become a Supreme Dictator holding sway over all life in the galaxy, or decide trillions should become some bastardized hybrid-race when I have absolutely no idea what that will mean in practice, much less for moral or philosophical reasons.  Example: Will children continue to grow up?  Or will they be forever frozen at their current stage of development, like a child vampire?

I wish I could remember the philosopher or author who posited this scenario, but here's the gist:  Suppose you could create a Utopia; a place of peace, love, and understanding everlasting, by doing one little thing: killing a baby.  Murdering it.  If that was the bedrock your Utopia was founded upon, wouldn't it be foul, evil, and rotten at its core?

So here's the deal:  keep your pompous pronouncements and self-righteous judgments about my motives, morals, and philosophy to yourself.  You worry about perfecting you--I'll worry about perfecting me.

It's not "creating a Utopia". It's "fighting for the survival of all advanced life in the galaxy". It's fighting against complete and utter eradication. And you'd go ahead and let everything you know and care about die because "But I don't waaaaannaaaaaa!"

Yeeeeeeah.

Huh?  If you don't think Hudson and Walters are pushing Synthesis as at least a near-Utopian future, I suggest you replay the EC Synthesis ending again and play close attention.  

The kicker is, having all races become one--with twinkly green eyes and circuit-board skin--won't do anything to prevent, for example, Wreav from waging a punitive war against the Turians and Salarians if he so chooses.  Does Synthesis solve the conflict between organics and synthetics?  Perhaps.  Does it resolve thousands of years of animosity between what were once organic species?  Get outta here.

I say again, I would not force my will upon all races of the entire galaxy to enact Synthesis in particular.  It's not just because Star-jar thinks it's the be-all and end-all of existence, and I don't wanna give him the satisfaction.  It's not that Star-jar is playing god--although as he's written now, he's not playing god, he is god--it's that I am not going to play god. It's because I do care about all those I know and love that I won't make that life-altering--literally, life-altering--choice for them, or kill them on a genocidal scale, or become their Overlord.  I'm not going to do it because I, I, I am not going to do it.

Can't make it any clearer than that.  You disapprove?  Noted.

[wantedman dan]

eye basher wrote...

the reapers can't be beat conventionaly why:

1-The reapers don't have to fight conventional battles they have overwhelming power simple brute force they see a defense line they bulldooze their way past it and you can't stop them as the Alliance found out.

2-The reapers have no supply lines you can't starve them because they came to harvest the galaxy they are taking your supplys your material and using it against you.

3-The reapers bring no soldiers with them beacause you are supplying them with soldiers they can replace there loses easily simply by taking yours.

4-The reapers can afford to take their time in a system because the longer they are there the more people they indoctrinate which again is taking manpower away from you and those they indoctrinate can be used as sleeper agents against you and you have no way of knowing.

1) We are constantly told this, yet when we are SHOWN this, we are SHOWN otherwise.
2) Advantage theirs, yes. It does not mean they CANNOT be beaten conventionally. That is absolute. It simply makes the task more challenging.
3) Advantage theirs, yes. It does not mean they CANNOT be beaten conventionally. That is absolute. It simply makes the task more challenging.
4) That obviously hasn't worked out too well for them this cycle, a la Palaven.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Zuka999 wrote...

What kind of game doesn't let you win? Its insulting being told over and over again that the only way to win is to use a superweapon - one that doesn't make any sense as a story element anyways. "Oh hey, we found this superweapon in Mars all of a sudden, and we don't know what it does at all, but lets put literally everything we have into it. We're doomed otherwise even though we have no evidence that that's true LoL!"

Its just lazy writing and entirely unsatisfying as a story.

So, even though the Reapers aren't a threat anymore, and I got final ending cutscenes, and the achievement for beating the game... I didn't win?

Well, whaddaya know. Learn something new every day.

[Father_Jerusalem]

Aquilas wrote...



Huh?  If you don't think Hudson and Walters are pushing Synthesis as at least a near-Utopian future, I suggest you replay the EC Synthesis ending again and play close attention.  

The kicker is, having all races become one--with twinkly green eyes and circuit-board skin--won't do anything to prevent, for example, Wreav from waging a punitive war against the Turians and Salarians if he so chooses.  Does Synthesis solve the conflict between organics and synthetics?  Perhaps.  Does it resolve thousands of years of animosity between what were once organic species?  Get outta here.

I say again, I would not force my will upon all races of the entire galaxy to enact Synthesis in particular.  It's not just because Star-jar thinks it's the be-all and end-all of existence, and I don't wanna give him the satisfaction.  It's not that Star-jar is playing god--although as he's written now, he's not playing god, he is god--it's that I am not going to play god. It's because I do care about all those I know and love that I won't make that life-altering--literally, life-altering--choice for them, or kill them on a genocidal scale, or become their Overlord.  I'm not going to do it because I, I, I am not going to do it.

Can't make it any clearer than that.  You disapprove?  Noted.

That may have been the result, but it wasn't the goal. The GOAL was to stave off extinction by defeating the Reapers. Shepard didn't know that Synthesis would be "Utopia" he simply took a chance that it would be... you know... not everybody dying. If you don't like Synthesis... then don't choose Synthesis. I'm not sitting here advocating that ALL PEOPLES NEED TO PICK SYNTHESIS or whatever you're trying to imply, I'm advocating that if you don't pick a choice and trillions upon trillions die for your "morality" - knowing that you COULD have ended it - then that makes you a monster and the biggest war criminal in the history of the galaxy.

If that's the choice you want to make - that your high and mighty hissyfit is more important than the lives of every sentient being in the galaxy - then by all means, pick Refuse. That's why BioWare put it in the game.

Just don't cry because the whole logical result of what happens is... you lose. 

[Warrior Craess]

I Ryukage I wrote...

If you didn't spend the entirety of ME3 building a MacGuffin, if everyone would have believed Shepard years ago, etc., etc., conventional means would possibly be an option. I would believe it to be so. You delayed them (all though its wasted because no one believed Shepard's Story in ME1), ME2 you may have some attican traverse/terminus support possibly, and once again Reapers slightly delayed in the Arrival DLC, I think its a long shot, but it could have worked. Would have possibly had the most casualty count, more than DESTROY ending, but still possibly could have won.

Which is exactly what I've been trying to explain.  ME 3 isn't the reason why it's not possible.  If ME2 had shown the council preparing. If the time line had been a bit longer. If Arrival wouldn't have taken place so soon wards. if some of the lore had be different. Then maybe. Sadly none of that happened. 

[ArchDuck]

Warrior Craess wrote...

I defaced your post so you'ld actually have a direct reply to your statements.  And still you ignore it. 

1) individually reapers can be beat, but so what? know I could beat Mike Tyson is not the same as knowing that once I beat him, I still have to beat a few thousand more of him.  yes hackett is a idiotic military leader, that doesn't make him wrong in his assessment of the situation. 

2) Ahh you missed the point. What happens to your ability to fight when the reapers have destroyed your manufacturing ability? 

3) willful ignorance does not change the fact that the turians lost the "Battle of Palaven", they failed to stop or even significantly delay the reapers and took massive casualties in the process.  here is the rest of the qoute for that batttle:  The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.The turians insist that Palaven is not lost--the battle has merely moved to the ground. Reaper troop transports have dumped hordes of husk to capture Palaven's inhabitants, but met with little success. Reaper capital ships are destroying city after city. But much of the turian fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians refuse to be intimidated.

The miracle of Palaven gave back large swaths of land, but didn't win the fight of Palaven, and it cost untold numbers of civilians.  Sadly there is an easy solution to all of that.  Quit indoctrinating, and start making husks out of everything. 

4) lol you mean it's available after the take down of Cerberus homebase... remind me again where we went next and why?  competely aside from the citadel being the catalyst, why was it important?  not becuase with direct control of it a reaper can turn off the relays? So exactly how much time did we have to convert documentation into implementation?  ohh wait, I know 0 times 0, carry the 0...

5) ahh yes, of course the reapers all use the same signal, it's the same frequency and everything. kind like we all use the citadel, and communication satelites to speak with each other. Wait, hey didn't the reapers destroy all the comms satelites around earth?  So how is it that Shepard is still able to talk to Anderson?  What there is a second type of comms that doesn't rely on satelites?  ohh so maybe assuming that the reapers only have one method of comms is a mistake. 

As for building more than one, sure go ahead.  So what happens when the reapers suddenly lose control of the various types of husks?  Pretty sure ignoring the problem isn't going to be the answer. And since they know what signal is being used, it would be fairly easy for them to triangulate where the interference is coming from and remove it.  like I said it's a reprieve for your ground forces nothing more. 


Don't assume that just becuase the writers of ME are not tactically profiecient that a conventional war is possible. 

1) It doesn't make him right either. Even if a battle with the Reapers is a bad idea at the moment it does not mean that opportunities where the factors are more favourable will not happen or cannot be manufactured.

2) If you can build the crucible then you have a mobile manufacturing base so ...

3) Oh you mean civilian causalties? Because fleet wise they didn't take much hits. I would call that a clear win even if the war isn't over. "But much of the turian fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians refuse to be intimidated."

4) Its also available from Horizon. Also there is no reason that the fleet has to immediately go to Sol system, that is just another Hackett stupidity.
Jam the enemy cannons with our wreckage and all that.

5) I said "should be able to be altered" not "it is guaranteed to automatically block all their signals". Communication, even (and especially) quantum communication can be interfered wiht and/or nullified if you know what the enemy is using (the whats and the hows about it).
And disrupting their control of husks, even for seconds, could win a battle. Why pass up any advantage you can take? The fact that they can possibly locate the source is ultimately unimportant if you have more than one.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 29 juin 2012 - 02:20 .

[Warrior Craess]

ArchDuck wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

I defaced your post so you'ld actually have a direct reply to your statements.  And still you ignore it. 

1) individually reapers can be beat, but so what? know I could beat Mike Tyson is not the same as knowing that once I beat him, I still have to beat a few thousand more of him.  yes hackett is a idiotic military leader, that doesn't make him wrong in his assessment of the situation. 

2) Ahh you missed the point. What happens to your ability to fight when the reapers have destroyed your manufacturing ability? 

3) willful ignorance does not change the fact that the turians lost the "Battle of Palaven", they failed to stop or even significantly delay the reapers and took massive casualties in the process.  here is the rest of the qoute for that batttle:  The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes of turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.The turians insist that Palaven is not lost--the battle has merely moved to the ground. Reaper troop transports have dumped hordes of husk to capture Palaven's inhabitants, but met with little success. Reaper capital ships are destroying city after city. But much of the turian fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians refuse to be intimidated.

The miracle of Palaven gave back large swaths of land, but didn't win the fight of Palaven, and it cost untold numbers of civilians.  Sadly there is an easy solution to all of that.  Quit indoctrinating, and start making husks out of everything. 

4) lol you mean it's available after the take down of Cerberus homebase... remind me again where we went next and why?  competely aside from the citadel being the catalyst, why was it important?  not becuase with direct control of it a reaper can turn off the relays? So exactly how much time did we have to convert documentation into implementation?  ohh wait, I know 0 times 0, carry the 0...

5) ahh yes, of course the reapers all use the same signal, it's the same frequency and everything. kind like we all use the citadel, and communication satelites to speak with each other. Wait, hey didn't the reapers destroy all the comms satelites around earth?  So how is it that Shepard is still able to talk to Anderson?  What there is a second type of comms that doesn't rely on satelites?  ohh so maybe assuming that the reapers only have one method of comms is a mistake. 

As for building more than one, sure go ahead.  So what happens when the reapers suddenly lose control of the various types of husks?  Pretty sure ignoring the problem isn't going to be the answer. And since they know what signal is being used, it would be fairly easy for them to triangulate where the interference is coming from and remove it.  like I said it's a reprieve for your ground forces nothing more. 


Don't assume that just becuase the writers of ME are not tactically profiecient that a conventional war is possible. 

1) It doesn't make him right either. Even if a battle with the Reapers is a bad idea at the moment it does not mean that opportunities where the factors are more favourable will not happen or cannot be manufactured.

2) If you can build the crucible then you have a mobile manufacturing base so ...

3) Oh you mean civilian causalties? Because fleet wise they didn't take much hits. I would call that a clear win even if the war isn't over. "But much of the turian fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians refuse to be intimidated."

4) Its also available from Horizon. Also there is no reason that the fleet has to immediately go to Sol system, that is just another Hackett stupidity.
Jam the enemy cannons with our wreckage and all that.

5) I said "should be able to be altered" not "it is guaranteed to automatically block all their signals". Communication, even (and especially) quantum communication can be interfered wiht and/or nullified if you know what the enemy is using (the whats and the hows about it).
And disrupting their control of husks, even for seconds, could win a battle. Why pass up any advantage you can take? The fact that they can possibly locate the source is ultimately unimportant if you have more than one.

your daft.  we'll get back to piint 1  in a minute

2) remind me again what shape all the major homeworlds were in? Thessia, Earth, Palaven, Khar'shan, Dekunna, Irune are all under reaper control. All the manufacturing capabilites are gone from those places. Colony worlds which are never actually invaded, were just orbitally bombarded to destroy their manufacturing ability.   

by the time you've rallied the galaxy it's already too late. Our ability to sustain any sort of fight is gone.

ok so your ships all have thanix weapons now, and are a bit faster (but still much slower than reapers), and instead of a 4:1 ratio it's now a 3:1 ratio... big freaking deal.  We won't even have a 1:1 ratio of capital ships.  So lets say they killed 2 reapers for every dreadnought lost.  So what?  we can afford those loses much much less than the reapers can.  A point you fail to grasp even at it's most basic level. 

3) you have a reading comprehension problem don't you?  After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.  doesn't read as civilian casualties, and much of the fleet is hardly the same as "didn't take much hits"

4) it's not available from Horizon. That research was taken by Kai Leng. It was not left behind. Blame Miranda for killing her father before he could spill the beans.  As for having to go to Sol system immediately after the Cerberus mission, did you miss the whole point of ME1? that a reaper in direct connection with that citadel can control the relays?  That once the Reaper control the Citadel they can shut down all the relays?  Which means that all of our forces would be trapped in whatever sector they are in... yes we had to attack earth as soon as possible. 

5) please google quantum entanglement fields.  Used as a means of communication they have no simliarities with standard light speed comms.. Which is what 99% of the galaxy uses and then routes though the relays. Which means that it doesn't matter how badly you midify a standard comms single it will never ever interfer with QEC.  The only way to interfere with QEC it to gain one of the entangled parts. Or maybe plop a big black hole near by.  So if the reaper's use QEC to comm between each other, then your controlling their husks isn't going to interfere with anything except there husks. Lastly standard signal communications depend on power. Reapers don't have to destroy the transmitting are, all they have to do is transmit with much more power.  Again advantage to the reapers. 


Now back to point 1. 
Reapers are numberically and technologically superior.   Check
Reapers have no supply lines to worry about?    Check
Reapers have no anchors to pin them at any one place?   Check
Reapers do not need to actually land on a planet to destroy it?  Check
Reapers do not have to worry about sustanence?   Check
Reapers can use indoctrination to infiltrate the various worlds?  Check
Reapers can not be infiltrated or have their plans known ahead of time?  Check
Reapers do not care if insurgents are hiding in the civilian puplation?   Check
Reapers are willing to kill everyone if needed? Check
Reapers are capable of closing the relay system down and effectively isolating everyone?  Check

All of that adds up to Hacketts assessment of the situation as being spot on.

Seriously have you read any of the codex?  Or more importantly do you understand what it's saying? 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 29 juin 2012 - 03:05 .

[Warrior Craess]

IanPolaris wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

sigh. 

Cosidering that you can't advance the game with out accomplishing some of that; That choosing all the worst possible endins leaves the Galaxy completey fubared;and that Mordin sacrificing himself, or getting killed by Shepard; that Tali committs suicide or kills legion are all touching scenes, I'm going to have to call BS on that. 

While there are somethings left out, that I would have loved to see, the endings are different depending on how you played the series.  

The endings are better than they were yes, but ultimately the only choice that matters is whether you use the crucible or not.  You do you win.  You don't you lose.

EMS has nothing to do with it.

That's the problem.

-Polaris

IMO part of the problem is that EMS is included in the game at all. 

[Warrior Craess]

Just so that I can kick this dead horse a bit more, does this look like the Battle of Palaven was a success?

[Dean_the_Young]

daqs wrote...

I think that three to six-ish years of galactic buildup across the military-industrial spectrum aimed at the geth probably would've been a good enough handwave, yeah.

Any technolgies you would have liked to see, though?

Mmm. I think this has been tossed around before, but I don't really like the idea all that much, and that has more to do with the sense of accomplishment than anything else. Beating the first wave is just one campaign, and winning just gives you a shot at survival - assuming you defeat the other waves. It's not got any sort of sense of finality, and not much of a taste of victory. Seems like it'd be awfully unsatisfying, with the knowledge that further years of grinding struggle with the remaining Reapers awaits - assuming constant vigilance against such a threat could be maintained (ha).

I think you could definitely frame it in terms of 'having survived the first wave, we're better prepared for the next': heck, once the galaxy reaches the 'we can't be overwhelmed' part, the Reapers might turn to hiding in dark space, or turn towards a hide-and-conspire strategy for any sequels. Heck, you don't even need any more waves: those Reapers could be literally trapped in Dark Space.

But you could definitely turn the 'waves' into a dramatic tool in its own right. Imagine if the Battle for Thessia, for example, seemed to be the cusp of victory... only to be overturned as the Second Wave arrives from Dark Space?

I mean, militarily, it makes sense for that to be the way things would shake out, and wars virtually never have the sort of climax that a story or game ought to have, but...

A decisive naval battle in a galaxy-scale war just feels better, right?

I understand your approach, and I can agree. On the other hand, Shepard leading the survival of the Reaper threat doesn't necessarily mean the destruction of the Reapers: mitigating them to a non-fatal force is already a factor of the current endings, after all.

Plus, it'd be a really obvious/easy tie-in to a sequel series. Imagine Reapers Round 2 super-plot in the aftermath of a Control vs. a Destroy (in-galaxy Reapers only) vs. a post-Synthesis scenario.

[Spanish Inquisition]

Impossible?

Make it possible then.

The crucible made uniting the whole galaxy pointless. Just imagine the final battle against the reapers with your war assets SHOWN facing the reapers. Imagine choosing where to position the forces you have adquired in order to win the battle. Imagine your EMS counting REALLY for something.

The game had all the ingredients for an epic battle that really showed your decisions mattered. It didn't happen.

ME2 Sucide mission on a really galactic scale: a truly unique and epic finale for an incredible series.

[ArchDuck]

Warrior Craess wrote...

your daft.  we'll get back to piint 1  in a minute

2) remind me again what shape all the major homeworlds were in? Thessia, Earth, Palaven, Khar'shan, Dekunna, Irune are all under reaper control. All the manufacturing capabilites are gone from those places. Colony worlds which are never actually invaded, were just orbitally bombarded to destroy their manufacturing ability.   

by the time you've rallied the galaxy it's already too late. Our ability to sustain any sort of fight is gone.

ok so your ships all have thanix weapons now, and are a bit faster (but still much slower than reapers), and instead of a 4:1 ratio it's now a 3:1 ratio... big freaking deal.  We won't even have a 1:1 ratio of capital ships.  So lets say they killed 2 reapers for every dreadnought lost.  So what?  we can afford those loses much much less than the reapers can.  A point you fail to grasp even at it's most basic level. 

3) you have a reading comprehension problem don't you?  After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.  doesn't read as civilian casualties, and much of the fleet is hardly the same as "didn't take much hits"

4) it's not available from Horizon. That research was taken by Kai Leng. It was not left behind. Blame Miranda for killing her father before he could spill the beans.  As for having to go to Sol system immediately after the Cerberus mission, did you miss the whole point of ME1? that a reaper in direct connection with that citadel can control the relays?  That once the Reaper control the Citadel they can shut down all the relays?  Which means that all of our forces would be trapped in whatever sector they are in... yes we had to attack earth as soon as possible. 

5) please google quantum entanglement fields.  Used as a means of communication they have no simliarities with standard light speed comms.. Which is what 99% of the galaxy uses and then routes though the relays. Which means that it doesn't matter how badly you midify a standard comms single it will never ever interfer with QEC.  The only way to interfere with QEC it to gain one of the entangled parts. Or maybe plop a big black hole near by.  So if the reaper's use QEC to comm between each other, then your controlling their husks isn't going to interfere with anything except there husks. Lastly standard signal communications depend on power. Reapers don't have to destroy the transmitting are, all they have to do is transmit with much more power.  Again advantage to the reapers. 


Now back to point 1. 
Reapers are numberically and technologically superior.   Check
Reapers have no supply lines to worry about?    Check
Reapers have no anchors to pin them at any one place?   Check
Reapers do not need to actually land on a planet to destroy it?  Check
Reapers do not have to worry about sustanence?   Check
Reapers can use indoctrination to infiltrate the various worlds?  Check
Reapers can not be infiltrated or have their plans known ahead of time?  Check
Reapers do not care if insurgents are hiding in the civilian puplation?   Check
Reapers are willing to kill everyone if needed? Check
Reapers are capable of closing the relay system down and effectively isolating everyone?  Check

All of that adds up to Hacketts assessment of the situation as being spot on.

Seriously have you read any of the codex?  Or more importantly do you understand what it's saying? 

Sorry it took me awhile to respond I have been busy.

1) If you think battlefield conditions can't change then you are living in a fantasy land. Supernovas, blackholes, moved relays, exploded relays, deception, antimatter and other things could all lead to battlefield victories. Traps and choosing the battlefield are important. I can think of at least 3 traps/fields of battle, off of the top of my head, that could lead to massive Reaper casualties if they went into them.

The Reapers also have 3 huge weaknesses.
One: They can not easily or swiftly replenish their ranks. Every Reaper lost will take a cycle or more to restore.
Two: They have a prime directive to harvest and "preserve" the civilization. This means that they are predictable to an extent & that they will not just resort to random orbital bombardment.
Three: They are superiorly arrogant.

And also they do not appear to have the ability to turn off the relays or they would have done so first thing. Anything else would have been beyond stupid.

2) You are not comprehending what I am saying. If you can build the crucible, you can build ships.
Also dont forget that if you have the geth you don't even have to build life support or other space/material wasters. And since geth are software they can "eject" before ship destruction and return to pilot another ship.

3) The tactics are sound and they took almost no damage, it is when they changed tactics and went to a straight up fight that they took loses. If they had simple continued as before the Reapers would have had to stop bombardment (as they would be taking heavy loses and as they still need to preserve the organics for harvesting). Simply put the turians flinched first.

4) As I already stated, they apparently can not turn off the relays or they would have done so upon first capturing the citadel (even before moving it). Unless you are saying that the Reapers have the tactical knowledge of a four year old, in which case then there is no reason they can not be beaten through non-crucible means.

5) I have Googled quantum entanglement fields. And based off of all the material I have read it is not possible to have ftl communication using them. But since it is possible in game I am unsure as to whether there is a means to counter it (collapse the wave function, interference on a quantum level or otherwise). Also I do not believe that is how the Reapers are communicating with every husk, drone, ship and each other but who knows. But I concide that it may do nothing to such a level of communication.

Still, even if the tech can only be adapted to interfer with the drone fighters then it would be a huge advantage. Even at "just" husk level interference it could still be used to great effect.


Also, FYI, personal attacks make you out to be petty and emotional, which taints your arguments. Try to avoid them in the future.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 30 juin 2012 - 02:38 .

[TiminatorT2000]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Just so that I can kick this dead horse a bit more, does this look like the Battle of Palaven was a success?

If you survive against reapers it is a success. The fight for palevan was ultimatly lost but it dose show that reapers aren't unbeatable , they have weaknesses and they can be exploited and aslo shows how ground units can defeat reapers.

Honestly I think being unable to win the war after talking to the starbrat makes sense, since you commited so many resources to that battle and sacrificed a lot just to get the crucible working. However if you started before the war and had Hackett save the two fleets he lost in the battle for earth I think it's possible to win against the reapers conventionally if it was decided that''s what you were going for at the beginning of the game. 

[ZerebusPrime]

So there are problems with turning your Crucible resources into capital ship resources and instead building either a super dreadnought or a series of heavy dreadnoughts.

In order to make the ships effective, they need to be superior to the current state of the art designs. So they need to be redesigned or newly designed from the ground up. That requires a ton of testing, working out bugs, and all the standard R&D hassles. In contrast, the plans for the Crucible were both complete and streamlined for ease of construction on the fly.

Next, if you build your new dreadnoughts or super dreadnought then you must staff it. I'll actually call this one easy since there are so many ex-military turians eager to get back into service - you can pull active duty crew from elsewhere in the turian fleet and conscript volunteers to replace them on the ships you pulled them from. There will still be a training period to get used to the new ship designs. In contrast, the Crucible had a crew complement of I did't see anybody at all in it.

Next, you have to bring these big guns to bear against the Reapers without 1: the Reapers wiping them out, 2: the Reapers disengaging without sustaining sufficient losses, and 3: the Reapers intercepting your forces before they even reach the battlefield and targeting your new ships for priority destruction (re: a kamikaze attack on your new ships before they can be truly deployed). In contrast, the Crucible was always designed as a one hit wonder that was never meant to survive long after being deployed. It just had to reach the citadel and fire up its reactor. There was very little in the way of space combat tactics required in the thing - you just escort it and dock it.

Modifié par ZerebusPrime, 30 juin 2012 - 04:20 .