419 réponses à ce sujet

[Bfler]

A simple solution would be that the Crucible can be modified to send some kind of pulse which deactivates the barriers of the Reapers. Now we could have an epic space battle. The outcome is determined by the EMS value

The Leviathan DLC could be the key. We say no to the child and our Reaper ally could give us some useful information to do the task.

Modifié par Bfler, 28 juin 2012 - 08:44 .

[UFGSpot]

Bfler wrote...

A simple solution would be that the Crucible can be modified to send some kind of pulse which deactivates the barriers of the Reapers. Now we could have an epic space battle. The outcome is determined by the EMS value

Now you're trying to alter the written story to achieve what you want for an ending. That's fine, but that's not the same as arguing that within the framework of the presented story there's any reason to think conventional victory was achievable.

[Galbrant]

Bfler wrote...

A simple solution would be that the Crucible can be modified to send some kind of pulse which deactivates the barriers of the Reapers. Now we could have an epic space battle. The outcome is determined by the EMS value

Interesting, That would make the Crucible still useful plot device without it being a Deux Ex Machina and and allow us to win conventionally. 

[Oransel]

Also, I'd like to point out that "realistic" card has been thrown away long long time ago. Conventional victory sounds like impossible, but it is not as impossible as Control, Destroy or Synthesis (aka ) are, yet you assume they can happen.

Modifié par Oransel, 28 juin 2012 - 08:39 .

[Warrior Craess]

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Here's what I wish Mass Effect 3 was:

Depending on your choices made in the previous two games, as well as the ones made in the third, you would have vary amounts of soldiers, ships and equipment available for your army. Didn't save the Rachni Queen? Too bad, you don't get a huge army of ground soldier Rachni. Destroyed the Collector base because the TIM isn't trustworthy? Too bad, you don't get a giant Reaper gun converted into a Reaper killer which could be fitted on the Destiny Ascension if you have that around. The list goes on.

And where were these armies to come from?  it's obvious that the council and all racial governments are not buying into the threat posed by the reapers.  So who is supplying the troops, the guns the supplies etc? How many rachni could the queen pop out in 3 years? what happens to the DA when the reapers realise it's a threat all on it's own? (given that they say in ME1 that it's much bigger than any alliance dreadnought it's probably already a threat though) Once the DA is destroyed then what? back to thanix missles? 

[UFGSpot]

Oransel wrote...

Also, I'd like to point out that "realistic" card has been thrown away long long time ago. Conventional victory sounds like impossible, but it is not as impossible as Control or Synthesis are, yet you assume they can happen.

I don't assume anything. They do happen in the world of the story. This isn't real life. And in the world of the story, conventional victory is impossible.

[Miezul_Carpatin]

If the combined fleets managed to keep the Reapers away from the Crucible then that means they are pretty competent. I don't see why they couldn't be able to win conventionally.

[Warrior Craess]

Oransel wrote...

Also, I'd like to point out that "realistic" card has been thrown away long long time ago. Conventional victory sounds like impossible, but it is not as impossible as Control or Synthesis are, yet you assume they can happen.

control is actually highly likely. especially if there is a singular entity in charge/control of the reapers already. being uploaded to the citadel while your body is vaporised is a bit unrealistic. However the theory behind it is relatively sound. (you should see what we can do with brain interfacing already  it's pretty amazing).

Synthesis.. well I have to agree even allowing for the catalyst, and crucible it's still space magic. 

[BCMakoto]

The races have armys on their own, even before the reaper thread. And as soon as the first hit came, they would potentially support them with every bullet they have. Even if they never believed the Reaper thread, they still found technology on Sovereign to be potentially usefull in combat, and they converted it to guns (I.g Thanix cannons.).

I hate people simply assume that "The Council played poker for 3 years.". They have researched the wreckage of Sovereign and found some pretty usefull stuff. Not the W.I.N - Button, but stuff that could give them a little edge.

Modifié par LPKerberos, 28 juin 2012 - 08:42 .

[Oransel]

UFGSpot wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Also, I'd like to point out that "realistic" card has been thrown away long long time ago. Conventional victory sounds like impossible, but it is not as impossible as Control or Synthesis are, yet you assume they can happen.

I don't assume anything. They do happen in the world of the story. This isn't real life. And in the world of the story, conventional victory is impossible.

Problem is... I am criticizing the story as a player, meaning I am not playing by it's rules. Developers screwed their own rules, why should I follow them or the new ones?

[HellbirdIV]

Busternated wrote...

This cycle is different than many other cycles before it in that the people in the universe have multiple advantages:
- They already killed Harbinger and used the remains to research Thanix weapons and probably other weapons/armor/shields.
- The reapers are late thanks to the failing of Harbinger. The galaxy had, in fact, time to prepare in the sense of research.
- The reapers did NOT seize the Citadel, the main point of government in the universe, first. This is what they normally do when they start their invasion.
- As Javik says, we have many different tactics to the diversity of the races all working TOGETHER thanks to the point above.

As far as I am concerned, these points should have been reason enough to allow a conventional victory over the Reapers. A very difficult one, but conventional with no Deus Ex Machina, God-child, or Space Magic.

Prior to Mass Effect 3, there were no indications that the Reapers were completley unbeatable in a conventional war. We were preparing for them, we were subverting their plans at every turn, and they were forced to resort to a desperate all-out charge on the Galaxy instead of the divide-and-conquer tactics they've perfected with the Citadel.

In ME3, the Reapers can clearly be killed in conventional combat, but still somehow had the ability to zergrush Earth through 4 defending fleets in what, 20 minutes? Really? If they were that powerful, why didn't they just up and seize the Citadel straight away, get right to the "divide and conquer" part so they can get back on schedule?

[UFGSpot]

Miezul_Carpatin wrote...

If the combined fleets managed to keep the Reapers away from the Crucible then that means they are pretty competent. I don't see why they couldn't be able to win conventionally.

1 part of one engagement when you are literally throwing everything you have in a desperate shot does not mean you could sustain that.

[Warrior Craess]

Miezul_Carpatin wrote...

If the combined fleets managed to keep the Reapers away from the Crucible then that means they are pretty competent. I don't see why they couldn't be able to win conventionally.

really?  have you read any of the arguments against it? like lack of infrastructure, the number of reapers on earth isn't even a large minority of the total reaper ships? Reapers are individually faster, stronger, more durable, and have far greater range both effective lethal range and travel capabilities? 

don't be daft.

[Dot.Shadow]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Here's what I wish Mass Effect 3 was:

Depending on your choices made in the previous two games, as well as the ones made in the third, you would have vary amounts of soldiers, ships and equipment available for your army. Didn't save the Rachni Queen? Too bad, you don't get a huge army of ground soldier Rachni. Destroyed the Collector base because the TIM isn't trustworthy? Too bad, you don't get a giant Reaper gun converted into a Reaper killer which could be fitted on the Destiny Ascension if you have that around. The list goes on.

And where were these armies to come from?  it's obvious that the council and all racial governments are not buying into the threat posed by the reapers.  So who is supplying the troops, the guns the supplies etc? How many rachni could the queen pop out in 3 years? what happens to the DA when the reapers realise it's a threat all on it's own? (given that they say in ME1 that it's much bigger than any alliance dreadnought it's probably already a threat though) Once the DA is destroyed then what? back to thanix missles? 

A lot of the problem is that ME3 is in such a hurry for some reason. The war against the Protheans lasted some 300 years, while the war in our cycle takes what? A few weeks?

And who says the Rachni can't get more queens? The Krogan can repopulate extremely quickly with the genophage cured.

DA would be the ace in the deck, but you don't put all your eggs in one basket. A lot of ships would be outfitted with newer tech, not just DA.

You seriously need to learn to use your imagination, instead of just relying on what the developers have given us.

[dreman9999]

Oransel wrote...

Also, I'd like to point out that "realistic" card has been thrown away long long time ago. Conventional victory sounds like impossible, but it is not as impossible as Control, Destroy or Synthesis (aka ) are, yet you assume they can happen.

Crusible makes it possible. See there's this thing called "mean" that you keep missing with "conventional victory" that the other options have.

[IanPolaris]

Warrior Craess wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

The foundations of this were set in the timeline between ME2 and ME 3.

Here is where the problems begin. ME3 plot with Crucible does not belong to the lore. That is the route of all problems, tbh.

Exactly.  Up to the point where the crucible was introduced, the game was clearly stearing us to the idea that the Reapers could be beaten on our terms (i.e. 'conventionally') but only if everyone got their act together and only at horrific cost to themselves and the galaxy as a whole.

However, somewhere along the line the idea that the Reapers were extremely powerful but beatable got morphed into the idea that they were invincible, and the entire plot of Mass Effect essentially fell to pieces.  Pro-Tip about introducing invincible enemies:

Don't do it.

-Polaris

Again I have to point out that ME2 laid the ground work for a conventional war being a losing proposition. You do not win against an enemy by denying said enemies very existance.  Remind me again why shepard is ok with working with Cerberus?  For ME3 to have any chance of a conventional war, then Arrival would have had to happen several years after ME2 and it didn't.  (in fact you can complete it before you do anything else in ME2 -so the time line is just a tad bit short).  not to mention that all races in the galaxy would have had to believe and start preparing for the reapers.  It's not ME3's fault that conventional warfare is a no-go. 

Going by the lore, we should have had 7 years after ME1 to prepare if not a bit more, not three.

-Polaris

[anangelsshare]

Well I suppose the story could've been written in such a way that the Reapers could ultimately have been defeated - what Shepard did was, after all, different from what happened before. Who knows, if we hadn't poured half our ressources - all the fine minds we recruited through countless means - into the creation of the crucible but instead into other projects to further the war effort, it'd probably have worked.

Only the reject ending shows us it didn't. Maybe the combined fleets even managed managed to defeat the Reaper forces at Sol, but were scattered across the galaxy afterwards and didn' manage to really end the thread. Might be just wishful thinking, but the new Stargazer looked distinctly Asari to me. Maybe the harvest was never completed, the cycle was already broken and all the future generations had to use the crucible for was mopping up a few pockets of Reaper resistance, who knows?

[UFGSpot]

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Here's what I wish Mass Effect 3 was:

Depending on your choices made in the previous two games, as well as the ones made in the third, you would have vary amounts of soldiers, ships and equipment available for your army. Didn't save the Rachni Queen? Too bad, you don't get a huge army of ground soldier Rachni. Destroyed the Collector base because the TIM isn't trustworthy? Too bad, you don't get a giant Reaper gun converted into a Reaper killer which could be fitted on the Destiny Ascension if you have that around. The list goes on.

And where were these armies to come from?  it's obvious that the council and all racial governments are not buying into the threat posed by the reapers.  So who is supplying the troops, the guns the supplies etc? How many rachni could the queen pop out in 3 years? what happens to the DA when the reapers realise it's a threat all on it's own? (given that they say in ME1 that it's much bigger than any alliance dreadnought it's probably already a threat though) Once the DA is destroyed then what? back to thanix missles? 

A lot of the problem is that ME3 is in such a hurry for some reason. The war against the Protheans lasted some 300 years, while the war in our cycle takes what? A few weeks?

And who says the Rachni can't get more queens? The Krogan can repopulate extremely quickly with the genophage cured.

DA would be the ace in the deck, but you don't put all your eggs in one basket. A lot of ships would be outfitted with newer tech, not just DA.

You seriously need to learn to use your imagination, instead of just relying on what the developers have given us.

It goes fast because Hackett realizes it's do something quick, or die slow. Even Javik basically said they were defeated quickly, but it takes time to completely eradicate what's left.

[OblivionDawn]

Also, when the Admiral of your entire fleet says that you can't win conventionally then...

Hackett saying that you can't win is reason enough to believe it.

[dreman9999]

Miezul_Carpatin wrote...

If the combined fleets managed to keep the Reapers away from the Crucible then that means they are pretty competent. I don't see why they couldn't be able to win conventionally.

Because "holding at bay "does not mean "can beable to defeat". The fleet can only hold the reapers at bay.

[Bfler]

UFGSpot wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Also, I'd like to point out that "realistic" card has been thrown away long long time ago. Conventional victory sounds like impossible, but it is not as impossible as Control or Synthesis are, yet you assume they can happen.

I don't assume anything. They do happen in the world of the story. This isn't real life. And in the world of the story, conventional victory is impossible.

In the world of story everything, even a last minute super-weapon, is possible if the writer is willing.
F.e. in Lord of the Rings the invincible army of the ghosts.

[Jadebaby]

Bfler wrote...

A simple solution would be that the Crucible can be modified to send some kind of pulse which deactivates the barriers of the Reapers. Now we could have an epic space battle. The outcome is determined by the EMS value

The Leviathan DLC could be the key. We say no to the child and our Reaper ally could give us some useful information to do the task.

HELL YES!

[Warrior Craess]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Busternated wrote...

This cycle is different than many other cycles before it in that the people in the universe have multiple advantages:
- They already killed Harbinger and used the remains to research Thanix weapons and probably other weapons/armor/shields.
- The reapers are late thanks to the failing of Harbinger. The galaxy had, in fact, time to prepare in the sense of research.
- The reapers did NOT seize the Citadel, the main point of government in the universe, first. This is what they normally do when they start their invasion.
- As Javik says, we have many different tactics to the diversity of the races all working TOGETHER thanks to the point above.

As far as I am concerned, these points should have been reason enough to allow a conventional victory over the Reapers. A very difficult one, but conventional with no Deus Ex Machina, God-child, or Space Magic.

Prior to Mass Effect 3, there were no indications that the Reapers were completley unbeatable in a conventional war. We were preparing for them, we were subverting their plans at every turn, and they were forced to resort to a desperate all-out charge on the Galaxy instead of the divide-and-conquer tactics they've perfected with the Citadel.

In ME3, the Reapers can clearly be killed in conventional combat, but still somehow had the ability to zergrush Earth through 4 defending fleets in what, 20 minutes? Really? If they were that powerful, why didn't they just up and seize the Citadel straight away, get right to the "divide and conquer" part so they can get back on schedule?

Fact: we had the time to prepare, and didn't.  Not a single race built any extra ships. Not a single race stockpiled weapons or built hidden repair and resupply facilities, not extra infrastructure was created.  No race placed themselves on a wartime footing. it was la dee da, life goes on...

Fact: The reapers did seize the citadel, just not immediately. 

Their lack of tactical competence is trumped by our lack of preparation. 

[dreman9999]

IanPolaris wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Oransel wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

The foundations of this were set in the timeline between ME2 and ME 3.

Here is where the problems begin. ME3 plot with Crucible does not belong to the lore. That is the route of all problems, tbh.

Exactly.  Up to the point where the crucible was introduced, the game was clearly stearing us to the idea that the Reapers could be beaten on our terms (i.e. 'conventionally') but only if everyone got their act together and only at horrific cost to themselves and the galaxy as a whole.

However, somewhere along the line the idea that the Reapers were extremely powerful but beatable got morphed into the idea that they were invincible, and the entire plot of Mass Effect essentially fell to pieces.  Pro-Tip about introducing invincible enemies:

Don't do it.

-Polaris

Again I have to point out that ME2 laid the ground work for a conventional war being a losing proposition. You do not win against an enemy by denying said enemies very existance.  Remind me again why shepard is ok with working with Cerberus?  For ME3 to have any chance of a conventional war, then Arrival would have had to happen several years after ME2 and it didn't.  (in fact you can complete it before you do anything else in ME2 -so the time line is just a tad bit short).  not to mention that all races in the galaxy would have had to believe and start preparing for the reapers.  It's not ME3's fault that conventional warfare is a no-go. 

Going by the lore, we should have had 7 years after ME1 to prepare if not a bit more, not three.

-Polaris

What in ME1 points to that? May be you should look at the years we understood what we were facing instead of counting the year it felt we were fighting mist.

[JPVS]

If the Crucible had been used, by the project leaders, has a real weapon capable of untold levels of destruction, then conventional victory would have been possible.
Failing that, simply by gathering a dozen dreadnaughts, several hundred cruisers and hundreds of frigates it should not be possible to defeat the hundreds of Reaper Capitol Ships and hundreds of Reaper Destroyers that are present in the final battle. No matter how many EMS you have, it should not be possible or it would be just as irrealistic as the space magic found in the endings.