419 réponses à ce sujet

[ashwind]

Reapers has been harvesting for god knows how long. Maybe a billion years because the Catalyst was created eons ago.

Guns and numbers are important but not the sole determining factor in an all out war not to mention there is noway for the allied forces to know how many Reapers are there:

1. Technology. Sovereign is known to be able to out maneuver any known ship. Reapers are more advance machines and they can out maneuver ally ships. They aint gonna stand there and let you shoot them.

2. Experience. Reapers have been fighting for how long? How many civilizations have they fought and harvested? The allied forces may as well be boy scouts trying to fight special forces.

3. Coordination. Reaper communication is so advance and complex than even the Geth cannot comprehend. The time required for Hackett to say "Attack" is enough for the Reapers to convey entire battle-plans to all Reaper units in the battlefield.

4. Resources. Reapers are constantly harvesting, indoctrinating and making husk from worlds they have conquered. Every theater lost strengthens the Reaper forces - turning your own troops against you.

5. Information. No war can be won without knowing your enemies. Reapers can easily have indoctrinated personals infiltrate allied forces but allied forces have NO WAY of sending spies to find out about the Reaper's plans/tactics. Reapers can intercept your transmission and learn about your plans and location but you cannot understand Reaper communication - Any moron who fight a war blind will result in EPIC FAILURE! There has never been an exception and there never will be.

[Ytook]

This may have been posted already but I completely agree with you. A conventional victory (even if assisted in some way) is the only way the ending could work from a thematic point of view. I wanted to stand and salute with a tear in my eye at the end of me1 and 2 because Shepard and co had pulled off the impossible and in 2 it was made genuinely bitter sweet when characters you had come to love were sacrificed. In 3 I never felt like I had actually defeated the reapers instead the ultimate evil in the galaxy the reaper controller offered me a few choices for no apparent reason and if I reject them it's an instant loss. In the end it's the Catalyst's victory, all your EMS meant nothing, space magic and other plot holes included, this is the main reason I disliked the ending, it felt as if it came from another series entirely as it's so thematically removed from even the rest of me3.

[Warrior Craess]

IanPolaris wrote...

JPVS wrote...

With the current technology you are able to detect small cold corpses like screws that spin around in the Earth's atmosphere. Detecting a ship in the vicinity of a planet is much easier, especially with future tech.
And cutting systems to reduce heat signature is all well and good but once powered up you are once again detected. Without engines and with the weapons still to be warmed up, shutting down systems to hide would be only good (and not as effective as you thing, see first paragraph) if you wanted to survive and make repairs. Of course, the repairs needed after a reaper shot usually implied an entire new ship.

Sure you can using ACTIVE sensors.  Using an ACTIVE sensor is like screaming "here I am" at the top of your lungs, and even then you have to be able to interpret correctly what you see....and ACTIVE sensors have very limited range.  That's fine for planetary orbit.  For in-system combat?  Not so much.

-Polaris

And your forgetting the anchor that we all havfe holding us back. our population centers, our homeworlds, and our infrastructure.  So what we can hide in space. doesn't amount to a hill of beans once the reapers threaten our ability to restock, repair and replace.  Go hide doggo in space.  I'll wait till you have to find some food, and water.  then I'll blow your supply gathers away.  if you won't fight you'll starve.  End result reapers win eather way. 

[JPVS]

Ytook wrote...

This may have been posted already but I completely agree with you. A conventional victory (even if assisted in some way) is the only way the ending could work from a thematic point of view. I wanted to stand and salute with a tear in my eye at the end of me1 and 2 because Shepard and co had pulled off the impossible and in 2 it was made genuinely bitter sweet when characters you had come to love were sacrificed. In 3 I never felt like I had actually defeated the reapers instead the ultimate evil in the galaxy the reaper controller offered me a few choices for no apparent reason and if I reject them it's an instant loss. In the end it's the Catalyst's victory, all your EMS meant nothing, space magic and other plot holes included, this is the main reason I disliked the ending, it felt as if it came from another series entirely as it's so thematically removed from even the rest of me3.

Exactly like I said: people would have disregarded any plausibility issues with the "defeating the reapers conventionally" ending because it would feel right. Like most accept how can Anderson appear in the citadel in front of you when there are no other paths to that control console and when you didn't see him, and how can TIM get there at all. They accept it because that feels somewhat right, even though it is not plausible.
I too would have accepted, though I also accept that no such ending is possible.

[JPVS]

Warrior Craess wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

JPVS wrote...

With the current technology you are able to detect small cold corpses like screws that spin around in the Earth's atmosphere. Detecting a ship in the vicinity of a planet is much easier, especially with future tech.
And cutting systems to reduce heat signature is all well and good but once powered up you are once again detected. Without engines and with the weapons still to be warmed up, shutting down systems to hide would be only good (and not as effective as you thing, see first paragraph) if you wanted to survive and make repairs. Of course, the repairs needed after a reaper shot usually implied an entire new ship.

Sure you can using ACTIVE sensors.  Using an ACTIVE sensor is like screaming "here I am" at the top of your lungs, and even then you have to be able to interpret correctly what you see....and ACTIVE sensors have very limited range.  That's fine for planetary orbit.  For in-system combat?  Not so much.

-Polaris

And your forgetting the anchor that we all havfe holding us back. our population centers, our homeworlds, and our infrastructure.  So what we can hide in space. doesn't amount to a hill of beans once the reapers threaten our ability to restock, repair and replace.  Go hide doggo in space.  I'll wait till you have to find some food, and water.  then I'll blow your supply gathers away.  if you won't fight you'll starve.  End result reapers win eather way. 

So true.

[Warrior Craess]

Demon Velsper wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

first off Allan didn't lie about anything, he doesn't even work on the ME franchise. 

Second
it doesn't sound like sugar coating to explain that including MP into the SP results was a mistake (intentional or otherwise).  It's hard enough to get a blue response to anything in this forum, and comments like yours are part of the reason. 

1. You = collective you. As in Bioware, the company, which he is clearly part of.

2. He didn't say it was a mistake, he said it was an error. It was clearly not, it was by design. His continued insitance that it wasn't is annoying and dishonest.

ummm
er·ror 
 [er-er]  Show IPA

noun

1.a
deviation from accuracy or correctness; a mistake, as in action or speech: His
speech contained several factual errors.
2.belief in
something untrue; the holding of mistaken opinions.
3.the
condition of believing what is not true: in error about the date.
4.a moral
offense; wrongdoing; sin.
5.Baseball .
a misplay that enables a base runner to reach base safely or advance a base, or
a batter to have a turn at bat prolonged, as the dropping of a ball batted in
the air, the fumbling of a batted or thrown ball, or the throwing of a wild
ball, but not including a passed ball or wild pitch.








As in it was an error to make MP affect SP, not that it was an error that allowed mp to affect SP. man sometimes the length people go inorder to critize BW employee's. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 28 juin 2012 - 10:44 .

[Demon Velsper]

Warrior Craess wrote...

umm yeah it sucked that MP affected SP, but it wasn't Allan that said it, and it's not sugar coating it for Allan to admit it was a mistake/error to do so.

I don't think I can dumb this down for you any further.

Allan did not say "It was a mistake to do it. " he said "It was done by mistake." There is an important difference.

In the first it means "We shouldn't have done it." in the second it means "It wasn't supposed to be that way."

[Ageless Face]

Strong military doesn't make the reapers any weaker. They are near undefeatable. The only way to destroy Sovereign was to take down his shields. And there's no Saren to every reaper. Taking the shields down is near impossible. You can destroy the little reapers. But Sovereign or Harby? No.

The Alliance fleet took almost everything they had on Sovereign, if you don't remember. There are maybe many fleets in the galaxy, but not enough. There are hundreds, maybe thousends of reapers in this war. One reaper can be a huge challange for a military. Believe me when I tell you that if there were two reapers at the battle on the Citadel, the Alliance would have been history, and everyone would have died.  

What can unity bring, if the reapers still outnumber the species' fleets? Unity will make the fleets stronger, but it won't help against the reapers. It's simply not possible. And it's not like we weren't told it'll happen. Pretty much everyone said they are counting on the crucible, it's the only way to win. Without it, the galaxy is screwed. Even the protheans, who were X5 more technological advanced than this cycle, couldn't defeat the reapers. The reapers are more advanced, more expirienced, have greater number, more powerfull.

Reapers cannot be defeated in conventional means, no matter how much we'd want.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 28 juin 2012 - 10:43 .

[Aimi]

ashwind wrote...

Any moron who fight a war blind will result in EPIC FAILURE! There has never been an exception and there never will be.

Well, there are historical exceptions, actually, but they're not exactly common cases. And fighting without relevant information is, yes, much much harder.

[Utrabob]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've seen the EMS argument come up a fair bit, but I think from a purely optics point of view you have to be careful.

Fans were already livid with the EMS issue that required more than just the single player experience to achieve all the endings. Requiring them to grind and promote the multiplayer game so that 7 billion EMS score defeats the reapers would not at all be well received.

Bioware has done what the bulk of players asked them to do give them closure, the new extended endings (and new addition) do just that, i dont see a point it nitpicking anylonger to satisfy every single posibull outcome that any fan can imagine dont get me wrong i was one of the first on the forums with a "WTF" face after finishing the game but most people are satisfied from what i can tell, i sugest that we the fan-base just needs to let this rest.

Theres still sevral portions of the normandy empty for what i can only guess as DLC charicters so lets just wait and see, bioware have done a great job with previous DLC packets and i seriously doubt ME3 is finished.

What im curious about is why the EC is 1.8+gb ive worked in unreal 3 myself and i find is suprising that at most an hour of video and audio files is so large, im curious if theres anything else within this update that we have yet to see.

[2Shepards]

• There has not been "countless" cycles, the universe is approx 14.6 billion years old.
• For many of those billion years there were no organics to make/create synthetics.
• Therefore there is a start point, the first advanced civilation created the first of the simplest synthetics.

So if advanced organics poofed into existence within 100,000 years of the Big Bang, there would have been from then til now 292,000 cycles.....

Not bloody likely.  But on the other hand

[Warrior Craess]

Demon Velsper wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

umm yeah it sucked that MP affected SP, but it wasn't Allan that said it, and it's not sugar coating it for Allan to admit it was a mistake/error to do so.

I don't think I can dumb this down for you any further.

Allan did not say "It was a mistake to do it. " he said "It was done by mistake." There is an important difference.

In the first it means "We shouldn't have done it." in the second it means "It wasn't supposed to be that way."

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Given that they reigned back the EMS requirements, I'm more inclined to state that the multiplayer requirement was an error. It's certainly a recognition that the fans were not happy with the situation.

It says clearly in the topic about the lowered EMS that it was intentional that you had to play multiplayer or Infiltrator to get everything, stop trying to sugar coat it. You lied. Again.

 

kindly show me where he said it was done in error?  I see clearly where he says it was an error (a mistake in speech or action). 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 28 juin 2012 - 11:03 .

[Biotic Sage]

Warrior Craess wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

Demon Velsper wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Given that they reigned back the EMS requirements, I'm more inclined to state that the multiplayer requirement was an error.  It's certainly a recognition that the fans were not happy with the situation.

It says clearly in the topic about the lowered EMS that it was intentional that you had to play multiplayer or Infiltrator to get everything, stop trying to sugar coat it. You lied. Again.

first off Allan didn't lie about anything, he doesn't even work on the ME franchise. 

Second it doesn't sound like sugar coating to explain that including MP into the SP results was a mistake (intentional or otherwise).  It's hard enough to get a blue response to anything in this forum, and comments like yours are part of the reason. 

I'm with Demon.  It might be unpleasent to day, but we were LIED to.  Not an opinion but a provable fact (just go to the EMS former stickied thread) and had been for months.  A day before the EC was released Priestly finally admitted that YES the 4000 EMS was intentional and it was to encourage MP play...after Bioware had specifically DENIED that for months.

Lying doesn't get much clearer than that and it is perfectly fair to say just that to a representative of Bioware.  I thought the comments were mild myself.

-Polaris

You are correct, it was bad form on EA/Bioware's end.  While I was on board with the original ending, I was never on board with the forced multiplayer play or any of the other-Mass Effect-products-affect-my-ME3 thing.  They have since corrected the error, but you would have to be very blind to not see it was an intentional thing the company did.  I think they have learned their lesson, and that the goodwill of fans is an important thing, both ethically and financially.

umm yeah it sucked that MP affected SP, but it wasn't Allan that said it, and it's not sugar coating it for Allan to admit it was a mistake/error to do so.  As for taking your ire out on someone who isn't involed in the issue you had.. thats just as bad a form as bioware trying to eak out a bit of extra cash. It's like yelling at someone in the AT&T store for apple removing an app from their store. 

Don't get me wrong, I guess I wasn't clear enough.  I definitely don't blame Allan at all.  The company decision makers were the only ones at fault.  I was more responding just to the decision and not to the Allan related stuff, sorry for the confusion.

[Warrior Craess]

2Shepards wrote...

• There has not been "countless" cycles, the universe is approx 14.6 billion years old.
• For many of those billion years there were no organics to make/create synthetics.
• Therefore there is a start point, the first advanced civilation created the first of the simplest synthetics.

So if advanced organics poofed into existence within 100,000 years of the Big Bang, there would have been from then til now 292,000 cycles.....

Not bloody likely.  But on the other hand

So lets say there are only 10K cycles (only 500 million years ago it started so back when life was just starting on earth). And only 500 of those cycles created reaper capital ships. It's still many times more than we can face and win. At 4:1 ratio we would need 2K dreadnoughts to defeat the reapers. We have 85. I think we're a little on the short side.

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 28 juin 2012 - 11:00 .

[Oransel]

Conventional victory =/= face to face all force battle.

[JPVS]

2Shepards wrote...

• There has not been "countless" cycles, the universe is approx 14.6 billion years old.
• For many of those billion years there were no organics to make/create synthetics.
• Therefore there is a start point, the first advanced civilation created the first of the simplest synthetics.

So
if advanced organics poofed into existence within 100,000 years of the
Big Bang, there would have been from then til now 292,000 cycles.....

Not bloody likely.  But on the other hand [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Ah yes, indeed you are right. Thanks 
Now, let's say it were 250k cycles. That's 250k Capitol Ships and at least 750k Destroyers.
let's say half of them have died. That leaves 125k capitol ships and 375k destroyers. Let's say 1% were around Earth: that results in 1250 capitol ships and 3750 destroyers.
Now, thanks to the game codex: it takes at least 3 dreadnaughts to damage 1 capitol ship... Well, I won't make the calculations again, I'll just leave them to everyone. Of course, you can just ignore them (as many have done so far )

[Dean_the_Young]

Oransel wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

The foundations of this were set in the timeline between ME2 and ME 3.

Here is where the problems begin. ME3 plot with Crucible does not belong to the lore. That is the route of all problems, tbh.

ME2, honestly. The backdrop of ME2 could have been a galactic mobilization, against the Geth (because, you know, Geth Dreadnaught) if not the Reapers. Actively preparaing for the Reapers, directly or indirectly, would have justified expanding past the ME1 hard-power limits: instead of a few dozen dreadnaughts, we could have 'lots'.

Add in a bit more time between ME2 and ME3 (another several years), and the expansion/development/use of new technologies (fabricators) to make way more weapons, and you could have an argument of Fully Mobilized Galaxy.


But, well, they didn't. The context of ME2 was that the galaxy wasn't preparing. It wasn't seeking to exploit the destruction of Sovereign for maximum gain. It wasn't preparing, or even building up against a different threat.

[JPVS]

Warrior Craess wrote...

2Shepards wrote...

• There has not been "countless" cycles, the universe is approx 14.6 billion years old.
• For many of those billion years there were no organics to make/create synthetics.
• Therefore there is a start point, the first advanced civilation created the first of the simplest synthetics.

So
if advanced organics poofed into existence within 100,000 years of the
Big Bang, there would have been from then til now 292,000 cycles.....

Not bloody likely.  But on the other hand [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

So
lets say there are only 10K cycles (only 500 million years ago it
started so back when there were still dinosaurs). And only 500 of those
cycles created reaper capital ships. It's still many times more than we
can face and win. At 4:1 ratio we would need 2K dreadnoughts to defeat
the reapers. We have 85. I think we're a little on the short side.

You are far more generous that me xD
85 dreadnaughts? I'd count 50 tops lol

[Helios969]

Some good arguments on both sides. I still think people are confused about what conventional warfare means. Whether you employ the crucible plot device or not, the tactics are unconventional. Any straight up shooting match against the Reapers will mean defeat over the long hall. However, I still think there are unconventional methods that could prove successful against the Reapers. If the crucible can control the Reapers at the galactic level, can a scaled down version be used to take control of a Soveriegn-class Reaper? Imagine the damage a controlled Harbinger could do within the Reaper ranks if it could infiltrate undetected.

Modifié par Helios969, 28 juin 2012 - 10:59 .

[Aimi]

Warrior Craess wrote...

So lets say there are only 10K cycles (only 500 million years ago it started so back when there were still dinosaurs). And only 500 of those cycles created reaper capital ships. It's still many times more than we can face and win. At 4:1 ratio we would need 2K dreadnoughts to defeat the reapers. We have 85. I think we're a little on the short side.

Can't be. The terminus ante quem for the Reapers' genesis is ~1bya, because the Leviathan of Dis was immobilized on Jartar at around that time.

Which means, theoretically, they could have even more ships, although cycle length variability could mess with that a bit.

[2Shepards]

JPVS wrote...

2Shepards wrote...

• There has not been "countless" cycles, the universe is approx 14.6 billion years old.
• For many of those billion years there were no organics to make/create synthetics.
• Therefore there is a start point, the first advanced civilation created the first of the simplest synthetics.

So
if advanced organics poofed into existence within 100,000 years of the
Big Bang, there would have been from then til now 292,000 cycles.....

Not bloody likely.  But on the other hand [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Ah yes, indeed you are right. Thanks 
Now, let's say it were 250k cycles. That's 250k Capitol Ships and at least 750k Destroyers.
let's say half of them have died. That leaves 125k capitol ships and 375k destroyers. Let's say 1% were around Earth: that results in 1250 capitol ships and 3750 destroyers.
Now, thanks to the game codex: it takes at least 3 dreadnaughts to damage 1 capitol ship... Well, I won't make the calculations again, I'll just leave them to everyone. Of course, you can just ignore them (as many have done so far )

I'm not ignoring the numbers JP, but another variable to take in account is that there would have to be advanced species to reap every cycle, which I doubt there could have possibly been every time. 

[Oransel]

Helios969 wrote...

Some good arguments on both sides. I still think people are confused about what conventional warfare means. Whether you employ the crucible plot device or not, the tactics are unconventional. Any straight up shooting match against the Reapers will mean defeat over the long hall. However, I still think there are unconventional methods that could prove successful against the Reapers. If the crucible can control the Reapers at the galactic level, can a scaled down version be used to take control of a Soveriegn-class Reaper? Imagine the damage a controlled Harbinger could do within the Reaper ranks if it could infiltrate undetected.

This.

[JPVS]

2Shepards wrote...

JPVS wrote...

2Shepards wrote...

• There has not been "countless" cycles, the universe is approx 14.6 billion years old.
• For many of those billion years there were no organics to make/create synthetics.
• Therefore there is a start point, the first advanced civilation created the first of the simplest synthetics.

So
if advanced organics poofed into existence within 100,000 years of the
Big Bang, there would have been from then til now 292,000 cycles.....

Not bloody likely.  But on the other hand [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Ah yes, indeed you are right. Thanks 
Now, let's say it were 250k cycles. That's 250k Capitol Ships and at least 750k Destroyers.
let's say half of them have died. That leaves 125k capitol ships and 375k destroyers. Let's say 1% were around Earth: that results in 1250 capitol ships and 3750 destroyers.
Now, thanks to the game codex: it takes at least 3 dreadnaughts to damage 1 capitol ship... Well, I won't make the calculations again, I'll just leave them to everyone. Of course, you can just ignore them (as many have done so far )

I'm not ignoring the numbers JP, but another variable to take in account is that there would have to be advanced species to reap every cycle, which I doubt there could have possibly been every time. 

True, true. I exegerated in the numbers just to provide a possibility, but it is ultimately speculation of course
Still, Warrior Craess provided more plausible numbers and it still points to what seems obvious: there are not nearly enough ships to fight the Reapers

[JPVS]

Oransel wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Some good arguments on both sides. I still think people are confused about what conventional warfare means. Whether you employ the crucible plot device or not, the tactics are unconventional. Any straight up shooting match against the Reapers will mean defeat over the long hall. However, I still think there are unconventional methods that could prove successful against the Reapers. If the crucible can control the Reapers at the galactic level, can a scaled down version be used to take control of a Soveriegn-class Reaper? Imagine the damage a controlled Harbinger could do within the Reaper ranks if it could infiltrate undetected.

This.

I would have loved that as a possible solution to be find in ME3. But again, that is a trumpth card shepard would have to find, something that provides a chance of winning that otherwise doesn't exist.
Would have loved it even more if it was a bit like Freelancer, where you'd actually take control of the Reaper and fight the others around Earth ahah

[Warrior Craess]

daqs wrote...

Warrior Craess wrote...

So lets say there are only 10K cycles (only 500 million years ago it started so back when there were still dinosaurs). And only 500 of those cycles created reaper capital ships. It's still many times more than we can face and win. At 4:1 ratio we would need 2K dreadnoughts to defeat the reapers. We have 85. I think we're a little on the short side.

Can't be. The terminus ante quem for the Reapers' genesis is ~1bya, because the Leviathan of Dis was immobilized on Jartar at around that time.

Which means, theoretically, they could have even more ships, although cycle length variability could mess with that a bit.

heh yes, I'm aware of that. I was purposefully understating the reaper number so that people would grasp just how badly outnumbered we are.  but your right  it was at least 1 billion (lets call it that and assume levi rebelled due to being an original that disagreed with the policy) years ago. 

this would mean 20K cycles, with lets say 1 cycle in 10 allowing for a captial ship, so thats 2K. now at a 4:1 ratio we would need 8K dreadnoughts in order to achieve victory. Or for those mathematically challanged we would need 100 times the number of dreadnoughts that the council treaty allowed as a max. Now that still leaves 19K destroyers?  Somehow I'm thinking we're still just a little behind the curve here. 

Modifié par Warrior Craess, 28 juin 2012 - 11:10 .