280 réponses à ce sujet

[Aethyl]

jediluck wrote...

I take it then you haven't heard of the Harrier then...?

Ah if only I could get this damn Harrier. The only weapon from the new DLC who interested me.
Not everyone is lucky enough to get it you know.
RNG for life!

Modifié par Aethyl, 30 juin 2012 - 01:26 .

[SavagelyEpic]

SinerAthin wrote...

I think that in order to balance Assault Rifles for Gold, we have to make some fundamental changes as well.

Personally, my way of balancing Assault Rifles would be:

Vastly increase damage per bullet(it's a BIG RIFLE, not a tiny peashooter)
Vastly increase ROF(Yes, more damage, but if you don't want out you'll waste your clip instantly)
Vastly increase recoil(You don't expect to fire accurately at long ranges with full auto, do you?)

Increase reload time.(so no wasting bullets)

Introduce 2-3 different firing modes per rifle (1 shot, 3 shot and full auto), switchable with the press of a button.


Mainly the idea is that I wanted to make Assault Rifles more like an ace of all, masters of none weapon.
If you can't decide whether or not to go with a Shotgun or Sniper Rifle, you go with an Assault Rifle.

I would also make all Assault Rifles heavier than pistols, to counter their increased power.
(if you want the increased firepower, you will have to be willing to sacrifice Cooldowns)

It will have a good accuracy and can be dangerous on full auto, but it doesn't have quite the same power per shot as a Sniper Rifle, and even though you can kill most stuff pretty fast with full auto in Close Combat, you'll be screwed if you miss.(hard to aim with the increased recoil and ROF after all)

This... My soldiers don't even use assault rifles. Ever. If you don't have a Harrier or a Saber, there's just no point.

[DopedGoat84]

hello, sory not read the thread been out drinking, but i unlockd the harrier 3 4 and 5 in 3 psps other night and it absolutely rocks with the soldier, I used to use the Phaeston only with tuirent soldeir but now female soldier and harrier its brilliant )

[Grunt_Platform]

One thing that drives me nuts is most assault rifles seem to be balanced assuming they're going to be fired at or near their full rate of fire. The only guns that can do that and still consistently hit targets at medium range (~20m I guess?) on full auto are the highly accurate ARs like the GPR and Phaeston. Everything else has enough recoil and accuracy loss that without the use of powers and mods, they're only going to get fired in short, controlled bursts for much less damage overall.

Conversely most pistols are better than their DPS suggests, since they're easier to get headshots with and can be fired accurately near their full ROF. They also just synergize better with power cooldowns and cover mechanics. It takes fewer mods, consumables and powers to get everything you want out of pistols than it does with ARs.

The Harrier is at the right level. Its DPS on paper looks huge, but you only get that at really close ranges, even with its minimal recoil (if anything, it could use a slight buff to its reserve ammo). One way or another, the accuracy/damage/weight trade offs for ARs need some love. The niche of ARs as flexible multi-purpose weapons shouldn't see them being worse than pistols at everything.

[Fang92]

eye basher wrote...

blame the player not the gun it's not it's fault if you don't know how to use it.

Im guessing you are not a consistent Gold player. IIRC the flat armor reduction on gold is 50 damage per bullet. Assault Rifles roughly range from 30 - 90. That means most assault rifles do the absolute minimum damage per bullet. Whats that number? 20 damage per bullet? Good luck taking down anything but trash mobs on Gold, you know the ones that disappear around wave 4, wait...you wouldnt know, would you?

[PaperAlien]

Increase the damage and accuracy of most current assault rifles, and decrease the accuracy and maybe also damage of some SMGs.

[CYB3RFR34K]

ima give you a tips, M-8 Avenger X
mod piercing V, mod barrel V

[PaperAlien]

Yeah, except Hurricane I, no mods will beat it.

[CYB3RFR34K]

PaperAlien wrote...

Yeah, except Hurricane I, no mods will beat it.

way too much recoil in the Hurricane...
btw, my new fav weapon is the N7 Eagle!!

[aletto]

PaperAlien wrote...

Increase the damage and accuracy of most current assault rifles, and decrease the accuracy and maybe also damage of some SMGs.

The SMGs are already worse enough. Except of the Hurricane.

aletto wrote...

I'd prefer more damage in general and on top of that, this
Make
them strong enough that they're useful against armor and with my
proposed fix, they'd be effective against shields. They would be good
against everything, but not excellent. How they're supposed to
be.

Assault Rifles should be jack-at-all-trades, but they shouldn't excel at anything (well, it shouldn't be too extreme (the saber is basically a semi-auto sniper rifle))

[macarius5]

Aethyl wrote...

Ah if only I could get this damn Harrier. The only weapon from the new DLC who interested me.
Not everyone is lucky enough to get it you know.
RNG for life!

My only problem on the harrier is the low ammo.

Saber is quite capable.

[Aethyl]

macarius5 wrote...

Aethyl wrote...

Ah if only I could get this damn Harrier. The only weapon from the new DLC who interested me.
Not everyone is lucky enough to get it you know.
RNG for life!

My only problem on the harrier is the low ammo.

Saber is quite capable.

I like fast firing Assault rifle, and since I will be using it on my Drell, the lack of ammo won't be bothering me this much.

Still, if I get it one day... Bored of wasting so much credits for nothing.

Modifié par Aethyl, 30 juin 2012 - 02:55 .

[PaperAlien]

aletto wrote...

PaperAlien wrote...

Increase the damage and accuracy of most current assault rifles, and decrease the accuracy and maybe also damage of some SMGs.

The SMGs are already worse enough. Except of the Hurricane.

Yeah, maybe just that.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Let's briefly discuss the effectiveness of the AR class in General, and discuss their viability:

Avenger: A good caster rifle, but not good for much beyond shield stripping. On gold, even with upgrades, it'll take upwards of a full mag to bring down most targets without consumables. It simply doesn't cause enough damage fast enough.
Geth Pulse Rifle: Ditto, but does even less damage at a faster fire rate. Utterly worthless against heavier foes; an embarassment against Geth Pyros. Its purpose in Gold is largely limited to Shield Stripper. For a rare, this is laughable.
Phaeston: It's at least better than the Avenger, but its DPS is worthless, so it's a liability on gold.
Mattock: Congrats, the first rifle on Gold that doesn't suck so badly that other rifles are sucked into it. It's still a woeful underachiever without the right gear and mods.
Revenant: Borderline-impossible to use on non-Turians without Stability Mods. Garbage on gold without Armor-Piercing Ammo.
Falcon: It's a good support rifle, and excellent stunning gun, but don't expect it to actually kill things beyond mooks.
Striker: Combine the worthless aim of the Revenant with the general properties of the Falcon, and you have a gun that's really only Gold-Viable on a Turian or Human soldier. A horrible joke that facepalming seems insufficient.
Harrier: One of three guns in the AR class worth a damn on Gold. And it's an Ultra Rare. Problem, playerbase?
Saber: Hard as hell to get, and handles like a Viper but synergizes well with warfighter. One of the few ARs worth using by virtue of its high damage output, but it's not quite up to snuff when paired against the Valiant or Carnifex, which do the same thing for less weight AND ARE EASIER TO FRICKING GET. This is annoying because I actually like the Saber. Go figure.
Collector Rifle: Can't be upgraded and needs a buff like nobody's business.

TL;DR: ARs in general are a joke, with about four of them actually viable on gold outside of very specific class builds (Harrier, Mattock, Saber, Falcon). All of the others are useless (most of them) except as caster rifles, or require specific builds (Revenant, Striker). It is worth noting that two of these are Ultra-Rares, one's still not useful as a weapon but rather a support weapon, and one is an uncommon. This is laughable, and only SMGs are a bigger joke.

[aletto]

Yeah... I posted that a few pages ago. Now that we resolved the fact that most ARs are just utter crap (compared to most other guns) and viable isn't enough, what'd you do to make them worth something?

[JaimasOfRaxis]

Simply put?

Blanket buff so their performance is fulcrummed using the Harrier as a baseline for comparison. Make sure each rifle has its role rigidly defined by this, and make sure that there's as little overlap as possible - let the Avenger keep its role as a caster gun, but give other guns like the GPR, Phaeston, and so on a genuine PURPOSE, one that sets them apart from the others and isn't "Like an Avenger, but Worse" or "Like the Revenant, but more accurate and hits like a squirt gun."

[aletto]

Their main problem is their utterly bad performance against armor, but they're also nothing special against shields.
I don't know why bioware decided to treat shields/barriers and health as the same thing, but shield gate doesn't cut it.

[soldo9149]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

Let's briefly discuss the effectiveness of the AR class in General, and discuss their viability:

Avenger: A good caster rifle, but not good for much beyond shield stripping. On gold, even with upgrades, it'll take upwards of a full mag to bring down most targets without consumables. It simply doesn't cause enough damage fast enough.
Geth Pulse Rifle: Ditto, but does even less damage at a faster fire rate. Utterly worthless against heavier foes; an embarassment against Geth Pyros. Its purpose in Gold is largely limited to Shield Stripper. For a rare, this is laughable.
Phaeston: It's at least better than the Avenger, but its DPS is worthless, so it's a liability on gold.
Mattock: Congrats, the first rifle on Gold that doesn't suck so badly that other rifles are sucked into it. It's still a woeful underachiever without the right gear and mods.
Revenant: Borderline-impossible to use on non-Turians without Stability Mods. Garbage on gold without Armor-Piercing Ammo.
Falcon: It's a good support rifle, and excellent stunning gun, but don't expect it to actually kill things beyond mooks.
Striker: Combine the worthless aim of the Revenant with the general properties of the Falcon, and you have a gun that's really only Gold-Viable on a Turian or Human soldier. A horrible joke that facepalming seems insufficient.
Harrier: One of three guns in the AR class worth a damn on Gold. And it's an Ultra Rare. Problem, playerbase?
Saber: Hard as hell to get, and handles like a Viper but synergizes well with warfighter. One of the few ARs worth using by virtue of its high damage output, but it's not quite up to snuff when paired against the Valiant or Carnifex, which do the same thing for less weight AND ARE EASIER TO FRICKING GET. This is annoying because I actually like the Saber. Go figure.
Collector Rifle: Can't be upgraded and needs a buff like nobody's business.

TL;DR: ARs in general are a joke, with about four of them actually viable on gold outside of very specific class builds (Harrier, Mattock, Saber, Falcon). All of the others are useless (most of them) except as caster rifles, or require specific builds (Revenant, Striker). It is worth noting that two of these are Ultra-Rares, one's still not useful as a weapon but rather a support weapon, and one is an uncommon. This is laughable, and only SMGs are a bigger joke.

this

[Grunt_Platform]

JaimasOfRaxis wrote...

Let's briefly discuss the effectiveness of the AR class in General, and discuss their viability:

Avenger: A good caster rifle, but not good for much beyond shield stripping. On gold, even with upgrades, it'll take upwards of a full mag to bring down most targets without consumables. It simply doesn't cause enough damage fast enough.
Geth Pulse Rifle: Ditto, but does even less damage at a faster fire rate. Utterly worthless against heavier foes; an embarassment against Geth Pyros. Its purpose in Gold is largely limited to Shield Stripper. For a rare, this is laughable.
Phaeston: It's at least better than the Avenger, but its DPS is worthless, so it's a liability on gold.
Mattock: Congrats, the first rifle on Gold that doesn't suck so badly that other rifles are sucked into it. It's still a woeful underachiever without the right gear and mods.
Revenant: Borderline-impossible to use on non-Turians without Stability Mods. Garbage on gold without Armor-Piercing Ammo.
Falcon: It's a good support rifle, and excellent stunning gun, but don't expect it to actually kill things beyond mooks.
Striker: Combine the worthless aim of the Revenant with the general properties of the Falcon, and you have a gun that's really only Gold-Viable on a Turian or Human soldier. A horrible joke that facepalming seems insufficient.
Harrier: One of three guns in the AR class worth a damn on Gold. And it's an Ultra Rare. Problem, playerbase?
Saber: Hard as hell to get, and handles like a Viper but synergizes well with warfighter. One of the few ARs worth using by virtue of its high damage output, but it's not quite up to snuff when paired against the Valiant or Carnifex, which do the same thing for less weight AND ARE EASIER TO FRICKING GET. This is annoying because I actually like the Saber. Go figure.
Collector Rifle: Can't be upgraded and needs a buff like nobody's business.

TL;DR: ARs in general are a joke, with about four of them actually viable on gold outside of very specific class builds (Harrier, Mattock, Saber, Falcon). All of the others are useless (most of them) except as caster rifles, or require specific builds (Revenant, Striker). It is worth noting that two of these are Ultra-Rares, one's still not useful as a weapon but rather a support weapon, and one is an uncommon. This is laughable, and only SMGs are a bigger joke.

Yep. Yep and yep.

Also minimum damage against armor is 5. Which means most assault rifles on Gold do absolutely laughable damage against armored enemies.This pretty much means the Avenger, Phaeston and Geth Pulse Rifle all do the same damage per bullet to armored enemies.

It shouldn't take a specialized build to make a weapon useful—if you specialize for a weapon, it should be rocking on a level comparable to power combos.

[JaimasOfRaxis]

How I'd set 'em up is as follows:

Avenger: Stays pretty much as it is, albeit with a beefed-up punch so it's an acceptable lightweight rifle option.
Geth Pulse Rifle: Becomes the new "fire rate" rifle. Needs a DPS buff to put it in line with its rare status. If it gets buffed enough, it becomes a desirable weapon for both Turian Soldiers and Human Soldiers, and is likely to see use with Geth classes as well.
Phaeston: Is henceforth the dedicated "Accuracy when rapid-firing" weapon. DPS buff as appropriate to bring it in line.
Revenant: Modest recoil reduction for use by non-Turians. Becomes the dedicated "Firepower and Speed" rifle, with huge DPS but middling accuracy. Like it's supposed to be right now and isn't.
Mattock: Needs an adjustment to match the new DPS curve. Otherwise satisfactory already.
Falcon: Is pretty much all right. Needs adjustments to match new DPS curve.
Striker: Loses some recoil because in its current state it's a bastard to control. Matches new DPS curve. No other changes needed.
Saber: Matches new DPS curve. No other changes needed.
Harrier: Basis of new DPS curve. Probably needs a tiny buff here or there in the face of the upgrades.

[soldo9149]

we forgot the vindicator

[ka243]

+1 to this thread

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

Heres a re-cap of current ideas=

A little note: Increasing weapon damage too much may further imbalance them on other difficulties rather than balancing the game - most people do not play gold exclusively. I do think some weapons need a little boost but certainly nowhere near the magnitude some people are talking about. And its not just AR's than need the love, but all low damage high ROF weapons currently suffer the same problem, incisor, scimitar, shuriken etc, so the same fix could apply to them as well.

Reducing enemy accuracy on gold: a less invasive change that helps weapons with sustained fire get more bullets on target, It will still take longer for the average AR user to kill that enemy than the guy who can just pop out of cover with his semi auto high damage weapon though.

Aletto's idea about giving rapid firing weapons more of a damage bonus against shields is good, but I still think it needs something else too, a team using phaestons and vindicators would be screwed on those waves where you get two or three banshees and brutes respawning whilst you are trying to cap an objective.

On another note - its not just about making the guns "viable" on gold, its making them so people have a good reason to use them on gold, because if you don't put them in a situation where the gun works better for them, they will all still just pick the same old gold weapons they always have.

Embellishing on the boost against shields idea, adding a threshold where any shots that do above a certain damage get a percentage based damage reduction to the shield mechanics would make it so low bullet damage, high ROF weapons are much more effective against shields. Sort of the reverse to the armour reduction where low damage guns get more of a penalty. It could fit with the lore well too, and be explained that higher velocity shots and larger slugs encounter more resistance when entering shields - like in the original Dune movie when Gurney Hallek is teaching Paul that a slow blade penetrates the shield, but a fast one does not.

Another idea I have seen around is the idea of adding a mechanic where the more bullets hitting a target in a short space of time, the more of a chance of the enemy flinching - sort of a suppressive fire mechanic. i think this would fit very well with the point of the enemy accuracy decrease idea - the enemies you shoot would be much less likely to shoot back. Albeit only the ones with no shield s or armour, but it adds to the general usefulness on all difficulties.

I think increasing the clip size and fire rate of most full auto AR's(and other rapid fire low damage weapons like the incisor and scimitar etc) rather than the damage would keep them more fitting to their original roles, and this coupled with the new shield damage idea would work well.

I know my idea for waves of high quantity, low health enemies (page 4 if you want to read it) sounds overly complicated, but the premise is simple - it does not have to be delivered in the way I described it. Enemies could have grenade usage reduced, and any kind of wave works as long as there are lots of low health enemies. My idea is not necessary at all if the other changes that we have come up with are all applied, I was mainly partial to my idea because it also balanced power usage by making some underused powers better choices, as well as certain class powers like Ad rush, sentry turret etc and as such wouldn't just increase weapon variety but class diversity. I understand it sounds a bit over the top, but I would like some new types of waves to be added to the game anyway for fun so I thought of a way the ideas could all go hand in hand.

I still say that enemy balance is what is mainly affecting these weapons so adversely - the increase of armoured enemies makes them much less effective, whilst the increased health makes it so you have to stay out of cover for longer, and their current advantage over the shield gate mechanic is pitiful compared to say the advantage high damage weapons get against armour comparatively.

Increasing the minimum bullet damage against armour on gold from 5 to 15 would instantly make the weaker assault rifles a lot more usable - I think the Revenant X currently does approx 9.6 damage per bullet against armour with no mods at a fire rate of 650rpm or 104DPS, to give you an idea. The gun is regarded as barely useable on gold, nothing special. A predator X bullet against armour does 23.5 damage, at a maximum fire rate of 500 RPM, now I know that is not going to be reached as it is semi auto, but a typical person shooting it can easily hit 5 bullets a sec which is 117.5DPS, has perfect accuracy, and can pop in and out of cover between shots if needed. The Revenant will likely miss quite a few of those shots due to accuracy over range. The Carnifex does 294 damage per shot against armour - thats 490 DPS. Increasing the minimum damage to 15 would make the revenant do 162DPS, around where I think it needs to be. If this was implemented the new DPS for assault rifles against armour would be:

Assault rifles VS armour on Gold.
Avenger Original DPS:41.6 New DPS: 125
Revenant Original DPS: 104 New DPS:162
Phaeston Original DPS: 50 New DPS: 150
Geth pulse rifle Original DPS:75 New DPS: 225 - (when I worked this out at first I thought this was a huge flaw in my idea, but then I figured, why not? The gun doesn't really have any great use or purpose other than its accuracy, if it ends up being the best all-around full auto against armour that's a niche I can actually appreciate)
Collector assault rifle original DPS:45 New DPS: 125
Vindicator 3 shot burst: 107.4 damage (ROF is around a burst and a half per second, so around 160 DPS vs armour) - the vindicator isn't affected by my change by the way, I just thought I would include it to show a comparison.

The mattock is semi auto and fire rate depends on you, it does 45.2 damage vs armour per shot, so four or five shots a second and you are looking at a similar score to the geth Pulse Rifle.
I havent a clue about the Harrier. The saber, striker and falcon I leave out because this wouldn't affect those anyway.

What does anyone else think? They would suck much less against armour. More of a change or less of a change? I felt that more would too heavily affect the GPR's DPS, as it has a ROF of 900, hence the huge change by altering 5 to 15.

Ideas? Sorry for the wall of text..

[aletto]

I think increasing the minimum damage is a solid idea. The high powered guns wouldn't notice anything at all, but all those SMGs, Assault Rifles will be (much?) more useful.
Oh and that "rapid-firing weapons-receive-bonus-damage-against-shields"-thing, it's not mine.

[Thaxor]

Apologies if this was mentioned SOMEWHERE in the 10 pages of discussion, but with the introduction of the Reegar, Bioware added a shield damage multiplayer (300% damage for the Reegar).

Considering they implemented this, 1 of 2 scenarios is true (probably...):

1) This functionality (shield damage multiplier) was always present in the game and weapons other than the Reegar simply do not have a value for it

2) The Reegar was specifically coded to include this functionality.

Assuming one of these 2 is true, it is completely feasible for Bioware to implement a shield damage multiplier to Assault Rifles (ideally SMGs as well).

Even if scenario 2 is the true one, the weapons could be recoded, albeit with a patch.

HOPEFULLY, Bioware takes note of this thread and considers implementing such functionality into the rest of our arsenal.