280 réponses à ce sujet

[Strict31]

AlienAtSystem wrote...

The assault rifles might be called viable, but only because they are lightweight enough to be used on a power class. For the Soldiers, who have to rely on their weapon damage, they are going from "viable" to "needs a lot of skill and teamwork", if not lower. Because to actually score a decent amount of damage with the fast-fire rifles, you have to stay out of cover constantly, firing, to keep up with the caster who pops up to throw his abilities, uses the gun when the heat is low, and then assumes that the gun is viable.
The problem is more or less in the design. The Assault Rifles simply cannot do the spike damage you need to be successful and surviving for longer times on Gold. If supressing fire would actually work in Mass Effect, they could be useful for crowd control, but at the moment, most Assault Rifles are not viable as primary source of damage.

This is exactly what I was gonna post, only...better.

Suppression-fire is a very tangible real world benefit to automatic weapons, but is entirely absent from ME3 (and really, a lot of games). Hell, even if you manage to sink every shot from a Revenant into a trash-mob's head (good luck) the first reaction he'll show to being headshot is when he finally dies. Much less if you're getting center-mass body shots on the same type of mob.

I get that Husks and Cannibals don't feel pain or whatever. But do they feel physics? These bullets are being accelerated with greater velocity and greater effective mass than any bullet we have today. I've seen a number of factual accounts of soldiers in ballistic vests getting shot center mass with an AK; surviving without injury, but still getting knocked the f*ck on their asses. IRL, we don't have fancy mass effect generators accelerating our bullets, but mass is still mass and force is still force.

I see a lot of Marauders always hiding behind cover, but I do not understand why they do so because they do not physically react to being shot until they're already near death. Even with their shields down, they can take several rounds before physics even gets the memo.

There are a couple of classes who have a couple of powers that make a couple of ARs viable on Gold. But for the most part, because automatic fire requires you to be out of cover against enemies who routinely score instant hits the moment you pop out of cover, ARs tend to punish most players for choosing them. Because of the way Gold works, there's just not enough reward for the risk of using them.

[Silentbob711]

I would like to see them get a little bit more of a buff but I don't think it's a top priority. The assault rifles work just fine on gold if you have some more skill than the average noob and can work as a group. Me and my group just did a gold run on every map last night to get that one achievement and we blew through them using a varied mix of classes. Mattock, vindicator, gpr, striker, Avenger were present and we did jut fine.

[hbogyt II]

Strict31 wrote...

AlienAtSystem wrote...

The assault rifles might be called viable, but only because they are lightweight enough to be used on a power class. For the Soldiers, who have to rely on their weapon damage, they are going from "viable" to "needs a lot of skill and teamwork", if not lower. Because to actually score a decent amount of damage with the fast-fire rifles, you have to stay out of cover constantly, firing, to keep up with the caster who pops up to throw his abilities, uses the gun when the heat is low, and then assumes that the gun is viable.
The problem is more or less in the design. The Assault Rifles simply cannot do the spike damage you need to be successful and surviving for longer times on Gold. If supressing fire would actually work in Mass Effect, they could be useful for crowd control, but at the moment, most Assault Rifles are not viable as primary source of damage.

This is exactly what I was gonna post, only...better.

Suppression-fire is a very tangible real world benefit to automatic weapons, but is entirely absent from ME3 (and really, a lot of games). Hell, even if you manage to sink every shot from a Revenant into a trash-mob's head (good luck) the first reaction he'll show to being headshot is when he finally dies. Much less if you're getting center-mass body shots on the same type of mob.

I get that Husks and Cannibals don't feel pain or whatever. But do they feel physics? These bullets are being accelerated with greater velocity and greater effective mass than any bullet we have today. I've seen a number of factual accounts of soldiers in ballistic vests getting shot center mass with an AK; surviving without injury, but still getting knocked the f*ck on their asses. IRL, we don't have fancy mass effect generators accelerating our bullets, but mass is still mass and force is still force.

I see a lot of Marauders always hiding behind cover, but I do not understand why they do so because they do not physically react to being shot until they're already near death. Even with their shields down, they can take several rounds before physics even gets the memo.

There are a couple of classes who have a couple of powers that make a couple of ARs viable on Gold. But for the most part, because automatic fire requires you to be out of cover against enemies who routinely score instant hits the moment you pop out of cover, ARs tend to punish most players for choosing them. Because of the way Gold works, there's just not enough reward for the risk of using them.

The requirement of continuous exposure can be somewhat mitigated by making use of more advantageous positions, for example, high covers on the left of an opening.

[Atheosis]

ABjerre wrote...

Iacov wrote...
Especially (besides the Revenant and the Harrier) the Phaeston and the Mattock - I could kiss the designer who gave them their look!
But on Gold they are absolutely useless...even the gorgeous Revenant would be useless if not the sheer amount of bullets per clip

I'm not going to go into a debate over the design of the weapons themselves, as that is a matter of personal taste, but regarding their viability on higher difficulties...

Them being "useless" on Gold difficulty may be related to the quality of the weapons: Uncommon. They are not meant to work on Gold diffuculty - you have Rare and Ultra Rare weapons for that.

The Cerberus Harrier is a very nice (direct in every quality) upgrade over the Phaeston, and the M99 Saber nicely replaces the M96 Mattock. Both of those are very usefull on gold.

Where on earth did you get te idea that uncommon weapons are not supposed to work on Gold? 

[hbogyt II]

Silentbob711 wrote...

I would like to see them get a little bit more of a buff but I don't think it's a top priority. The assault rifles work just fine on gold if you have some more skill than the average noob and can work as a group. Me and my group just did a gold run on every map last night to get that one achievement and we blew through them using a varied mix of classes. Mattock, vindicator, gpr, striker, Avenger were present and we did jut fine.

Yeah, on casters or soldiers?

[Methew]

aletto wrote...
And for everyone, who wants to use other weapons as well.
Technically, we only need 3 weapons: the carnifex for casters, the Krysae for sniper and maybe the claymore/GPS for anything else. The rest is pretty much obsolet.

Which is why I don't play Gold.

Silver has a nice balance of difficulty and avaliability and doesn't invalidate 99% of all class, spec and weapon options.

[NuclearTech76]

Fang92 wrote...

So what youre saying is that i need a consumable to make a grenade launcher good? What does that say about the real ARs in the category. Hmm?

You don't need a consumable to make it work but it certainly makes the weapon much better especially on Gold. The stun locking on it is very valuable without consumables on phantoms especially. I've ran it wo when I get dropped into a gold game already in progress and it is still viable.

The saber and mattock are both decent weapons on gold also but they are outdone by lighterweight pistols like the carnifax or palidin IMO. I honestly haven't checked the saber vs the palidin since the balance changes though.

[Bolo Xia]

when we do get weapons that are good on gold everyone flips out about how they ravage bronze and silver.

sure i will get flamed or ignored but its true.

[aletto]

Silentbob711 wrote...

I would like to see them get a little bit more of a buff but I don't think it's a top priority. The assault rifles work just fine on gold if you have some more skill than the average noob and can work as a group. Me and my group just did a gold run on every map last night to get that one achievement and we blew through them using a varied mix of classes. Mattock, vindicator, gpr, striker, Avenger were present and we did jut fine.

They are viable, nothing more. I could use a rock on the ground and smash it in a Banshee's head. Maybe it'll even work.
The point is, a Vindicator is not as good as a Mattock/Carnifex/...
It's just weak compared to these guns.

Besides, I could do a gold match even with an Avenger. I'd just switch to an Asari Adept.

[xtorma]

Strict31 wrote...

AlienAtSystem wrote...

The assault rifles might be called viable, but only because they are lightweight enough to be used on a power class. For the Soldiers, who have to rely on their weapon damage, they are going from "viable" to "needs a lot of skill and teamwork", if not lower. Because to actually score a decent amount of damage with the fast-fire rifles, you have to stay out of cover constantly, firing, to keep up with the caster who pops up to throw his abilities, uses the gun when the heat is low, and then assumes that the gun is viable.
The problem is more or less in the design. The Assault Rifles simply cannot do the spike damage you need to be successful and surviving for longer times on Gold. If supressing fire would actually work in Mass Effect, they could be useful for crowd control, but at the moment, most Assault Rifles are not viable as primary source of damage.

This is exactly what I was gonna post, only...better.

Suppression-fire is a very tangible real world benefit to automatic weapons, but is entirely absent from ME3 (and really, a lot of games). Hell, even if you manage to sink every shot from a Revenant into a trash-mob's head (good luck) the first reaction he'll show to being headshot is when he finally dies. Much less if you're getting center-mass body shots on the same type of mob.

I get that Husks and Cannibals don't feel pain or whatever. But do they feel physics? These bullets are being accelerated with greater velocity and greater effective mass than any bullet we have today. I've seen a number of factual accounts of soldiers in ballistic vests getting shot center mass with an AK; surviving without injury, but still getting knocked the f*ck on their asses. IRL, we don't have fancy mass effect generators accelerating our bullets, but mass is still mass and force is still force.

I see a lot of Marauders always hiding behind cover, but I do not understand why they do so because they do not physically react to being shot until they're already near death. Even with their shields down, they can take several rounds before physics even gets the memo.

There are a couple of classes who have a couple of powers that make a couple of ARs viable on Gold. But for the most part, because automatic fire requires you to be out of cover against enemies who routinely score instant hits the moment you pop out of cover, ARs tend to punish most players for choosing them. Because of the way Gold works, there's just not enough reward for the risk of using them.

Players don't react to shots either, unless the weapon being used has a stagger mechanic. Do you really want every weapon to cause stagger. The geth are tedious enough as it is.

[Nl55]

Bolo Xia wrote...

when we do get weapons that are good on gold everyone flips out about how they ravage bronze and silver.

sure i will get flamed or ignored but its true.

We already have weapons for ravaging bronze and silver. I can propose nerf all of this, but buff consumables... You already hate me? 
:innocent:

[astheoceansblue]

Methew wrote...

aletto wrote...
And for everyone, who wants to use other weapons as well.
Technically, we only need 3 weapons: the carnifex for casters, the Krysae for sniper and maybe the claymore/GPS for anything else. The rest is pretty much obsolet.

Which is why I don't play Gold.

Silver has a nice balance of difficulty and avaliability and doesn't invalidate 99% of all class, spec and weapon options.

Neither does Gold. Every class is Gold viable, and only a few characters struggle. There are plenty of weapons and builds that work just fine in Gold. I know you using hyperbole for effect, but it's not even close to 50% unavailability.

Hurricane, Hornet, Widow, Krysae, Black Widow, Valiant, Indra, Javelin, Saber, Revenant, Falcon, Harrier, Mattock, GPS, Graal, Claymore, Crusader, Wraith, Disciple, Carnifex, Paladin... all of these guns are great in Gold. Just because people are too familiar with the obvious choices doesn't mean there are hardly ant viable options.

And while those guns are the better ones, there are plenty more that can be used in Gold effectively.

[Beerfish]

I don't have the harrier but the assault rifles I have are sucky suck suck suck. Or more accurately, There always seems to be a far better sniper rifle or pistol.

[ABjerre]

Atheosis wrote...

ABjerre wrote...
I'm not going to go into a debate over the design of the weapons themselves, as that is a matter of personal taste, but regarding their viability on higher difficulties...

Them being "useless" on Gold difficulty may be related to the quality of the weapons: Uncommon. They are not meant to work on Gold diffuculty - you have Rare and Ultra Rare weapons for that.

The Cerberus Harrier is a very nice (direct in every quality) upgrade over the Phaeston, and the M99 Saber nicely replaces the M96 Mattock. Both of those are very usefull on gold.

Where on earth did you get te idea that uncommon weapons are not supposed to work on Gold? 

We have had this discussion before, and i know that you disagree with me.

[Effect = Skill x Gear]

I find it reasonable, that when a player wishes to advance through a game in its difficulties, it is required for him to also advance in either skill in play, or weaponry to make up for the lack of said skill. That being said, the Common and Uncommon weaponry does, regardless of other desireable traits, pack a lot less punch than their Rare and Ultra Rare counter parts.

The weapons work on gold difficulty - its not like they wont fire, or you cant enter a game with them, but one will have to accept working a lot harder with weapons in the Common or Uncommon tier to achive the same results as an average amount of work would achive with a Rare or Ultra Rare weapon.

On a side note: The rest of the team will have to risk having someone not being able to carry their weight, and so, may kick someone on sight, when entering a R/R/G lobby with a Phaeston.

[aletto]

astheoceansblue wrote...

Methew wrote...

aletto wrote...
And for everyone, who wants to use other weapons as well.
Technically, we only need 3 weapons: the carnifex for casters, the Krysae for sniper and maybe the claymore/GPS for anything else. The rest is pretty much obsolet.

Which is why I don't play Gold.

Silver has a nice balance of difficulty and avaliability and doesn't invalidate 99% of all class, spec and weapon options.

Neither does Gold. Every class is Gold viable, and only a few characters struggle. There are plenty of weapons and builds that work just fine in Gold. I know you using hyperbole for effect, but it's not even close to 50% unavailability.

Hurricane, Hornet, Widow, Krysae, Black Widow, Valiant, Indra, Javelin, Saber, Revenant, Falcon, Harrier, Mattock, GPS, Graal, Claymore, Crusader, Wraith, Disciple, Carnifex, Paladin... all of these guns are great in Gold. Just because people are too familiar with the obvious choices doesn't mean there are hardly ant viable options.

And while those guns are the better ones, there are plenty more that can be used in Gold effectively.

I'm just saying that you don't need all those guns, if you have the Carnifex, the Krysae and Claymore.
I know that perfect balance is an illusion, but right now... it's so bad that it's depressing.
Everything is viable. Few is good. Or godly, like the Krysae two weeks ago.

[AlienAtSystem]

xtorma wrote...

Players don't react to shots either, unless the weapon being used has a stagger mechanic. Do you really want every weapon to cause stagger. The geth are tedious enough as it is.

That is not what is asked for. The weapons do not need to stagger, the AI just has to be reacting more realistically when being shot at. The human player, when under fire, seeks cover and tries to get out of the line of sight, while the AI rolls around a bit at max. It just fires back, ignoring the damage to itself, confident the player won't have the guts for a game of chicken.
That means, while the AI can lay down supressing fire, the players can't. If they could, the game would be more tactical, with flanking and cover-flushing powers being more important than raw damage per second.
But as it is, the only real solution would be to give most ARs a buff to damage. Everything else would require to much work to be done for the sake of balance.

Modifié par AlienAtSystem, 28 juin 2012 - 02:46 .

[Kuato Livezz]

A hunarn soldier using adrenaline rush and an AR is doable in gold with AR upgrades. I guess "with upgrades" is the key phrase.

Anyways, I usually play human soldier on gold w/Claymore and If I'm running low or shotgun amps, I'll go with assault rifle and use the AR upgrades.

[mpompeo27]

Try the Saber. Not only is it a good gun, but it'll teach to aim a lot better too.

[Kuato Livezz]

astheoceansblue wrote...

Methew wrote...

aletto wrote...
And for everyone, who wants to use other weapons as well.
Technically, we only need 3 weapons: the carnifex for casters, the Krysae for sniper and maybe the claymore/GPS for anything else. The rest is pretty much obsolet.

Which is why I don't play Gold.

Silver has a nice balance of difficulty and avaliability and doesn't invalidate 99% of all class, spec and weapon options.

Neither does Gold. Every class is Gold viable, and only a few characters struggle. There are plenty of weapons and builds that work just fine in Gold. I know you using hyperbole for effect, but it's not even close to 50% unavailability.

Hurricane, Hornet, Widow, Krysae, Black Widow, Valiant, Indra, Javelin, Saber, Revenant, Falcon, Harrier, Mattock, GPS, Graal, Claymore, Crusader, Wraith, Disciple, Carnifex, Paladin... all of these guns are great in Gold. Just because people are too familiar with the obvious choices doesn't mean there are hardly ant viable options.

And while those guns are the better ones, there are plenty more that can be used in Gold effectively.

I agree.  All weapons suck until someone posts a video of its usage and they are kicking butt.  Then its a godly weapon.

Well, to a point.  I tried a gold match with a scimitar.  We finished the missions, but I don't know if that made it viable.  It felt like I was shooting air at the enemies.

[Fingertrip]

Revenant Rifle X.

Hi

[aletto]

Guys don't focuse too much on one weapon. Just because the Saber is good, would you call the whole AR class good? Just because the Harrier's actually awesome, would you use the Avenger instead?
Or the most extreme example. The hurricane is a really, really good weapon. But would you even consider to use the other SMGs? The locust? The Shuriken?

[Strict31]

xtorma wrote...

Strict31 wrote...

AlienAtSystem wrote...

The assault rifles might be called viable, but only because they are lightweight enough to be used on a power class. For the Soldiers, who have to rely on their weapon damage, they are going from "viable" to "needs a lot of skill and teamwork", if not lower. Because to actually score a decent amount of damage with the fast-fire rifles, you have to stay out of cover constantly, firing, to keep up with the caster who pops up to throw his abilities, uses the gun when the heat is low, and then assumes that the gun is viable.
The problem is more or less in the design. The Assault Rifles simply cannot do the spike damage you need to be successful and surviving for longer times on Gold. If supressing fire would actually work in Mass Effect, they could be useful for crowd control, but at the moment, most Assault Rifles are not viable as primary source of damage.

This is exactly what I was gonna post, only...better.

Suppression-fire is a very tangible real world benefit to automatic weapons, but is entirely absent from ME3 (and really, a lot of games). Hell, even if you manage to sink every shot from a Revenant into a trash-mob's head (good luck) the first reaction he'll show to being headshot is when he finally dies. Much less if you're getting center-mass body shots on the same type of mob.

I get that Husks and Cannibals don't feel pain or whatever. But do they feel physics? These bullets are being accelerated with greater velocity and greater effective mass than any bullet we have today. I've seen a number of factual accounts of soldiers in ballistic vests getting shot center mass with an AK; surviving without injury, but still getting knocked the f*ck on their asses. IRL, we don't have fancy mass effect generators accelerating our bullets, but mass is still mass and force is still force.

I see a lot of Marauders always hiding behind cover, but I do not understand why they do so because they do not physically react to being shot until they're already near death. Even with their shields down, they can take several rounds before physics even gets the memo.

There are a couple of classes who have a couple of powers that make a couple of ARs viable on Gold. But for the most part, because automatic fire requires you to be out of cover against enemies who routinely score instant hits the moment you pop out of cover, ARs tend to punish most players for choosing them. Because of the way Gold works, there's just not enough reward for the risk of using them.

Players don't react to shots either, unless the weapon being used has a stagger mechanic. Do you really want every weapon to cause stagger. The geth are tedious enough as it is.

While in terms of mechanics, you are correct, in terms of actual effect, the reaction is to get the f*ck back into cover. If I take a single hit from a Nemesis that removes my Shields, I will get back into cover immediately and wait for my Shields to regen, or I'll move and try to get out of the line of fire or I'll die.

Enemies tend to simply stand there and continue shooting you. Upon occasion, they will dodge to the left or the right, and then continue shooting you.

Of course, this also tends to ignore the fact that on Gold, even many trash units simply have more heath than players do. So they can individually afford to stay out of cover for longer while in the process of being shot.

And then, there is the fact of superior numbers providing another change in context. The first time I threwe my Phaeston on my Turian Soldier and activated Marksman, I finally understood why Marauders could kill you so quickly with nothing more than a Phaeston. Except of course, you usually have three or more of them focusing fire on you at once...and all of them can dodge.

There is a point where game balance exceeds logic. ARs are supposed to be useful weapons. But they become increasingly less useful as game difficulty increases, due simply to the way the game mechanics function. 

Sustained DPS is the primary value of most ARs. And because sustained DPS exposes you to greater injury on higher difficulties, the value of ARs beomes diminished at a greater rate than other classes of weapons.

[Uncle Graves]

xcrunr1647 wrote...

Human Soldier. Harrier. Empty magazine into enemy, pop AR, repeat. Profit.

The Harrier is an Ultra-Rare and therefore not everyone who wants to use it can actually get one. So no, no fu*king profit here.

Modifié par Uncle Graves, 28 juin 2012 - 03:01 .

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I have said it before, and I will say it again - the weapons that need work are all the low burst, low damage, high rate of fire weapons. Their only advantage, and chosen role is mainly sustained fire - the ability to spray down multiple mooks before say a sniper can reload and shoot them. This is not a problem on bronze because of the enemy balance, there are a few armoured enemies but not enough to really bother you. Jump to gold however and not only do your bullets do no damage against armour, but some waves have brutes and banshees spawning left right and center simultaneously and rapid fire low damage weapons are a liability.

Increasing the damage of the guns would not make much difference unless substantially buffed a lot - but in order to make them viable against enemies on gold the damage buff would be so great that they would stomp all the lower difficulties, causing just as much imbalance in the game. To balance this, they would have do something else, like lowering the fire rate -  which ignores the main point of these guns, they were never supposed to be good against armour, they would lose all character and lose sight of their main purpose - they are designed for continuous fire against multiple enemies with low health - with a bonus by passing shield gate. The shield gate bonus is hardly an advantage tbh when all you have to do is shoot the enemy one more time with any weapon to get past it - especially when high burst, high damage weapons offer the advantage of being able to pop in and out of cover while firing(not to mention the fact that many powers strip shields instantly anyway)

So you see, a simple damage buff, while welcome and a slight one is still needed, is not enough. However, altering the enemy balance instantly changes the viability of those guns - in situations where you get a high volume of low health enemies simultaneously - an AR or SMG suddenly has the advantage over slow firing high burst damage weapons as they can be sprayed down before a widow rifle user for example can aim and shoot and reload.

You cant take away the high volume of armoured boss type enemies on gold as that is part of why it is gold difficulty - that is why it is hard, and you cant just add more weak mooks at the same time as there is only so much the engine can handle at once, and there would be no point as the AR/SMG(or weak shotgun, sniper and pistol users)would still die to being useless against the heavy enemies.

This is why I propose a couple of waves in gold, entirely populated by fast spawning continuous low health enemies. To keep the difficulty high all you have to do is make the spawn points all very close to the player(say a few hundred meters away), with instant respawns when taken out in order to keep a steady supply of enemies coming. Make the enemy spawns keep switching location as well and it makes it certainly gold worthy in terms of difficulty,(10 husks at once would be a nightmare) lots of enemies continually converging at once on your position - the high volume is key to making the sustained/rapid fire an advantage for your guns.

In this scenario, in infiltrator with a sniper will suddenly be out classed by a soldier using a revenant and Ad Rush, other classes might start taking SMG's along with them or weaker more rapid fire shotguns as light secondaries. High damage, high burst weapons take a back seat on waves like this, and classes and weapons that were not gold viable are suddenly essential.

In this way, because gold will have separate waves of both types of waves - gold will be balanced for all weapon types. I suggest the high volume low health wave be some sort of survival wave where you just have to last for two minute straight against continually respawning enemies. Or until you reach a goal of a set amount of enemies killed.

Also, people have argued that biotics/tech would steal the show, to which I argued that bringing powers to a weapon discussion was silly, especially as a biotic would not be lugging round a heavy high burst damage weapon, but rather one of the lighter weaker weapons which this change would actually help against. And as a sidenote, this change would make certain biotic powers previously not very useful on gold absolutely brilliant, such as singularity, shockwave etc, which would suddenly be more useful than their more often used counterparts.

Again, gold would be more balanced for powers too. It would encourage snipers and heavy weapon specialists to carry light side-arms, it would greatly increase class diversity and viability by a long shot, and it would add much more strategy and though while picking teams, whilst also making the game more interesting.

It would take something like this rather than simple damage buffs to make the game evenly balanced.

Any thoughts?

Modifié par K1LL STREAK, 28 juin 2012 - 03:14 .

[MrRag]

Full auto assault rifles feel down on power, they should deal more damage per bullet. One thing that adds to it is that with with a fully automatic AR you can't always hit the head and get the headshot bonus.

The main problem with weapon buffs is that Infiltrators will always benefit the most.