165 réponses à ce sujet

[AmicusHumaniGeneris]

Infiltrators are still great. Just need to be hyper-aggressive or hide in the shadows all the time. If you enjoyed doing something in the middle of that, your days of fun are over. The player-base wished for it, deal with it.

[N7-RedFox]

So i've gone with extra duration on cloak to give it 10 secs. Sacrificed some of the bonus damage to do so. Still feel cheated though coz every single Geth mother f***er i go against shoots me in the back while im cloaked.

What a waste of a slot >_<

[GallowsPole]

I think they nerfed duration because people were cloaking and bragging how they can almost empty Indra or Harrier clips. What can I say. I'm an old geezer cynic.

[Cundu_Ertur]

Tankcommander wrote...

[snipage of quotes]
Precisely. The damage nerfs were fine; the duration nerf was uncalled for and discourages teamwork much more so than the damage nerfs encouraged it.

Actually, the duration nerf is kind of needed. It goes to cooldown and making weight matter. Everyone knows (or should know) that the minimum duration of cloak cooldown is 3 seconds. The problem is that it's kind of complicated how it works after that. It is related to the maximum duration of the cloak, the maximum cooldown of the cloak and the amount of time spent under cloak. I think (and if someone can correct me I'd appreciate it) that the formula is something like Cooldown © = Time under cloak (T) * Maximum cooldown (M) / Maximum duration (D) or C=MT/D. I could be wrong, though.
Why the duration nerf is significant, then is that it makes D smaller, and so M is more significant. M is affected by weight. So the duration nerf help make weight more significant, which has always been a problem with the class. The other classes were affected by weight, the infiltrator was not.
So I am actually OK with the duration nerf, sort of. The problem in my mind is the triple reduction to damage that you have to take to be a team player.

[Cundu_Ertur]

InfamousResult wrote...
There. Every base is covered. We're good now.

Yep.
Now we can have each others' babies and sing kumbaya.

[Hakumen]

DHR107 wrote...

UKStory135 wrote...

Hakumen wrote...

Today's match:

Nothing has changed. They just made class a little worse for the wrong reasons.

That is what I think. The Infiltrator went from a versatile class to a quick cloak shotgun killer.

That shows nothing apart from you being a kill stealer... other 3 classes with 50 assists each and you have just the bronze one? Hmmm....

Sure. I was running around and waiting for other players to decrease enemies health/armor by 95% and then just kill everything with one shot and take all the credit. Also I was killing other players myself to get 15 Revives medals. Double standarts at it's best. When it's you topscoring the board - I did all the job. When someone else do that - he's kill stealer/cheater/score doesen't matter/blah-blah-blah. This is pathetic excuse.

Modifié par Hakumen, 28 juin 2012 - 04:41 .

[Cundu_Ertur]

We have to be civil now.

[Derek Hollan]

Hi Folks,

I just wanted to let you know that it was not my intention to give the appearance of siding with one particular view in the discussion.

To be clear, I am not taking sides.

I pulled one of the particularly strong offenses as an example and wanted to make it clear for everyone to calm down.

I apologize if this came across otherwise, it was not my intention to do so.

Thanks

[Alijah Green]

Fauxnormal wrote...

Tommy 9un wrote...

Fauxnormal wrote...

Tommy 9un wrote...

StrawHatMoose wrote...

Sorry you have no skill. That's your problem. Learn to play the goddam game.

You know what my granny always used to say if you haven't got anything nice or intresting to say.....shut you mouth. I'm thinking you could learn a lot from her

There's another saying; if you can't take the heat, get out of the fire.

If you can't handle people being 'mean', get off the forums. If you can't play a game because you suck, don't blame the game.


Says the type of player who will be screaming how s**t an infiltrator you are for not reviving or doing the objectives when we have been made to choose one or the other

Actually, no. I expect you to pull your weight as you class, same as anyone else. I don't accept blaming the game for your failure to play well.

if I fall dead at your feet, rez me. if I fall dead where you can easily get to me, rez me. If you can get to the objective, you bloody well better get there. But I'm a team player, and I'll help you out any way I can. well.

Maybe not you.

teamplayer as in teamnerf the world 

[Cundu_Ertur]

Derek Hollan wrote...

I apologize if this came across otherwise, it was not my intention to do so.

Wasn't dumping on you, no apology needed, don't think you're taking sides -- other than taking the side of civility against barbarism. I've done modding and it's impossible to see every message. I'll take a smackdown from a mod. I won't take a smackdown from another poster, though, without getting snarky and subversive.
I'm ornery that way.
Anyhow, I was nudging up hard against the boundaries and may have stuck a toe over the line.
But we're all happy now, singing kumbaya and banging each others' drums and all that hippy junk.
These aren't the posts you're looking for.

[Fortack]

Infiltrators are still the most deadly class in the game. Anyone who's claiming they can't do any decent damage never were able to kill stuff anyway.

[tMc Tallgeese]

@Derek--The changes showed other players what real infiltrators can do. My thanks to BioWare.

Played as a Level 1 Salarian Infiltrator with only the one point in tactical cloak. Jumped into a match in progress on wave 3 and topped the scoreboard by wave 8. Was a silver Geth game on jade.

Weapons:

Widow - Barrel Extender and Thermal Clip
Phalanx - Extended Barrel and Armor Piercing Mod

Managed to out score 2nd place by 20,000. Got gold medals for kills, headshots, revives. Capped all but one objective.

What did they nerf again?

[nicethugbert]

GallowsPole wrote...

I don't see a whole lot of complaining of stasis sniping or shotgunning, which in my mind, is no different than using TC to take advantage of damage bonuses. I bet if the Asari vanguard got the same damage bonuses a TC inf would get, they'll be hollering about that.

The reason the cries are starting about arc grenades, again, bonuses/scores.

No one will admit it, but all these game changes are to sate the egos of all sides. When one scores more, it needs to be nerfed.

Ego, ego, ego. All over a video game. I had some college kid yelling at me because somehow, on Giant, I was in his line of fire. I take breaks from Gold to play a more relaxed game on Silver and because I have arthritic hands, which a lot of duck and covering hurts. My god. This is what's in college these days? So I said, well let me fix that. For the rest father round it was raving, BE's and CQC. I was no longer in his line of fire.

Stasis does not dump aggro and the entire team gets the benefit of a captive target and a fair shot at it.  So, you really can't compare Stasis to TC.

[Tankcommander]

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

Tankcommander wrote...

[snipage of quotes]
Precisely. The damage nerfs were fine; the duration nerf was uncalled for and discourages teamwork much more so than the damage nerfs encouraged it.

Actually, the duration nerf is kind of needed. It goes to cooldown and making weight matter. Everyone knows (or should know) that the minimum duration of cloak cooldown is 3 seconds. The problem is that it's kind of complicated how it works after that. It is related to the maximum duration of the cloak, the maximum cooldown of the cloak and the amount of time spent under cloak. I think (and if someone can correct me I'd appreciate it) that the formula is something like Cooldown © = Time under cloak (T) * Maximum cooldown (M) / Maximum duration (D) or C=MT/D. I could be wrong, though.
Why the duration nerf is significant, then is that it makes D smaller, and so M is more significant. M is affected by weight. So the duration nerf help make weight more significant, which has always been a problem with the class. The other classes were affected by weight, the infiltrator was not.
So I am actually OK with the duration nerf, sort of. The problem in my mind is the triple reduction to damage that you have to take to be a team player.

From what I understood, the majority of those to be taken seriously (IE, those not whining about being beaten by Infiltrators), just wanted duration to be something that might be better than taking over damage. The damage probably need a nerf, sure, on Evo 4 (not Evo 6), and that's not a big deal. But by nerfing the duration so drastically, people who want/need to focus on damage can't do anything with the cloak except use it as a damage bonus button. Whereas, if you go duration, as you are now forced to if you want to be of much use to your team at all for, then you don't deal nearly as much damage and are significantly weaker.

Not weak, by any means, surely, but it can make the difference when you are constantly carrying people who can't play. A much better choice would have been to bring base duration down, to say, 6.5 seconds, and then give a massive duration boost if you went that route. I would happily choose duration over the damage if it was around 20 seconds or so. Then, I could cloak, run a distance to objective, cap it, then make it to the next one and start without it breaking. That would be great!

The nerf appeased a lot of people who were crying for it, but it was the wrong way to go. Rather than toning down the damage to make the cloak more 'teamwork' oriented, they instead forced you to go strictly the route of damage. Cutting down my cloak duration won't make me more likely to revive; in fact, now I won't bother rezzing the teammates since I can just finish the wave myself.

[rmccowen]

Tankcommander wrote...

From what I understood, the majority of those to be taken seriously (IE, those not whining about being beaten by Infiltrators), just wanted duration to be something that might be better than taking over damage.

Part of the problem with TC, for me anyway, is that it combines so many functions into a single power. It was a massive damage bonus, a source of major utility, and a way to cap the cooldowns of every power at 3s. Unfortunately, I have a hard time coming up with a meaningful fix for the old TC that doesn't start by dividing the utility and damage functions.

Not weak, by any means, surely, but it can make the difference when you are constantly carrying people who can't play.

But why is it the Infiltrator's job (and only the Infiltrator's) to carry poor players? I certainly agree that it was a feature of the ME3 metagame prior to this week, and I did it myself; sometimes you look at the loadouts and class combos in a lobby, realize it's going to be a terrible match, and switch to GI or FQI because they let you work effectively alone.

But, if you take a step back, why should there be a class that's responsible for making life easier for everyone else? That's pretty much the definition of an imbalanced game element, in fact--if I have one spec (or many) for "normal" play and one for situations when I know I can't afford to fail, then why bother to use the former at all?

And it is a mistake to assume that non-Infiltrators don't or can't clutch. I've carried groups and clutched successfully with Soldiers of all kinds, Salarian and Geth Engineers, and both flavors of Asari Adepts. (Admittedly, on Gold I'm typically more like a supportive second-place player than a do-it-all hero.) It's not as easy, sometimes--mostly because it was hard to match a pre-nerf Infiltrator's solo damage--but it's certainly possible. Carrying is a function of player experience and skill, rather than class; if you could carry with an Infiltrator, you can probably carry with your second-favorite class.

Rather than toning down the damage to make the cloak more 'teamwork' oriented, they instead forced you to go strictly the route of damage.

How? The opportunity cost of investing in duration is lower (because the other Rank 4 choice offers less damage), and the reward is higher (adds 6 full seconds to your cloak, more than doubling its duration).

Cutting down my cloak duration won't make me more likely to revive; in
fact, now I won't bother rezzing the teammates since I can just finish
the wave myself.

You do have to pick between duration and damage now, and that may make some Infiltrators less likely to revive teammates. But again, looking back to the prior point: there are lots of players using lots of classes that perform revives without the benefit of any cloak at all, so it's hard to take Infiltrators seriously when they claim that reducing cloak duration makes it impossible or undesirable to resurrect teammates.

[Chealec]

nicethugbert wrote...

GallowsPole wrote...

I don't see a whole lot of complaining of stasis sniping or shotgunning, which in my mind, is no different than using TC to take advantage of damage bonuses. I bet if the Asari vanguard got the same damage bonuses a TC inf would get, they'll be hollering about that.

The reason the cries are starting about arc grenades, again, bonuses/scores.

No one will admit it, but all these game changes are to sate the egos of all sides. When one scores more, it needs to be nerfed.

Ego, ego, ego. All over a video game. I had some college kid yelling at me because somehow, on Giant, I was in his line of fire. I take breaks from Gold to play a more relaxed game on Silver and because I have arthritic hands, which a lot of duck and covering hurts. My god. This is what's in college these days? So I said, well let me fix that. For the rest father round it was raving, BE's and CQC. I was no longer in his line of fire.

Stasis does not dump aggro and the entire team gets the benefit of a captive target and a fair shot at it.  So, you really can't compare Stasis to TC.

If you don't take duration you don't dump aggro either as you'll be cloaked for approximately 3.274 nanoseconds before taking the shot - not even enough time for a caffeine-fuelled Banshee with serious ADHD to get distrcted.

What Stasis does though is much, much worse - if something, say a Phantom, isn't killed while under Stasis it becomes an invisible, invincible killing machine that appears to be on the floor pew-pewing you but is actually up, mobile and getting ready to stab you in the face - far worse for the team than an infiltrator cloaking for a fraction of a second.

Modifié par Chealec, 28 juin 2012 - 06:04 .

[Tankcommander]

You make great points, let me address them.

rmccowen wrote...

Part of the problem with TC, for me anyway, is that it combines so many functions into a single power. It was a massive damage bonus, a source of major utility, and a way to cap the cooldowns of every power at 3s. Unfortunately, I have a hard time coming up with a meaningful fix for the old TC that doesn't start by dividing the utility and damage functions.

True. It is a Tactical Cloak, however. All of its uses make sense. Would I like seeing damage go down further? No, of course not (prefer seeing other classes getting buffs). But it would make more sense to curb Evo 4 and give back duration so as to allow those of us who like a mix to be able to perform each job well rather than one job superbly and the other ones poorly. If you encouraged duration more, by making it a huge bonus (or let you revive one person while cloaked, etc) you could divide the functions.

But why is it the Infiltrator's job (and only the Infiltrator's) to carry poor players? I certainly agree that it was a feature of the ME3 metagame prior to this week, and I did it myself; sometimes you look at the loadouts and class combos in a lobby, realize it's going to be a terrible match, and switch to GI or FQI because they let you work effectively alone.

But, if you take a step back, why should there be a class that's responsible for making life easier for everyone else? That's pretty much the definition of an imbalanced game element, in fact--if I have one spec (or many) for "normal" play and one for situations when I know I can't afford to fail, then why bother to use the former at all?

And it is a mistake to assume that non-Infiltrators don't or can't clutch. I've carried groups and clutched successfully with Soldiers of all kinds, Salarian and Geth Engineers, and both flavors of Asari Adepts. (Admittedly, on Gold I'm typically more like a supportive second-place player than a do-it-all hero.) It's not as easy, sometimes--mostly because it was hard to match a pre-nerf Infiltrator's solo damage--but it's certainly possible. Carrying is a function of player experience and skill, rather than class; if you could carry with an Infiltrator, you can probably carry with your second-favorite class.

These are all excellent points. You are right, it isn't the job of one class, and if you are good you can carry with other classes too. TBH, I usually get over 110k with my Phoenix Adept and carry with him just fine, and it seems to be an easier match.

But, if my team isn't giving supportive fire, I can't use Tactical Cloak (meant for objectives) as an Adept, and thus can have a miserable time capping objectives. This is the only area an Infiltrator does better than other classes in carrying rounds. It makes sense, however. I think you'll agree you kind of mooted your own point about the Infiltrator fitting all situations - if you are good, you can match anything with any class.

How? The opportunity cost of investing in duration is lower (because the other Rank 4 choice offers less damage), and the reward is higher (adds 6 full seconds to your cloak, more than doubling its duration).

[You do have to pick between duration and damage now, and that may make some Infiltrators less likely to revive teammates. But again, looking back to the prior point: there are lots of players using lots of classes that perform revives without the benefit of any cloak at all, so it's hard to take Infiltrators seriously when they claim that reducing cloak duration makes it impossible or undesirable to resurrect teammates.

And this was actually my point. I can revive just as easily with other classes now, if I don't go Duration. The Cloak has now become a Boost Damage button for those that go Damage, which is why it got the nerf in the first place! And for those of us who had a nice balance before, but now want to go Damage, we are pushed to use TC in that way. Wasn't the objective to avoid that?

Modifié par Tankcommander, 28 juin 2012 - 06:44 .

[Cundu_Ertur]

rmccowen wrote...

Rather than toning down the damage to make the cloak more 'teamwork' oriented, they instead forced you to go strictly the route of damage.

How? The opportunity cost of investing in duration is lower (because the other Rank 4 choice offers less damage), and the reward is higher (adds 6 full seconds to your cloak, more than doubling its duration).

This is incorrect. The cost of investing in duration is higher now than it was before because now it's a loss of 4/8 of the bonus instead of 4/9 of the bonus. And the benefit is less in absolute terms, 11.2s vs 14.4s from before. The other choice at rank 4 actually offers the same bonus to damage that it did before. Higher cost, less benefit; and that in addition to the other damage nerfs.

[SilentRich]

These threads are gonna be around for a while aren't they?

[BoomDynamite]

The problem I have with the change is that it's overdue. Maybe if it was implemented early on, people would have adapted before they got so used to it, but since it was put in 3 months after release, people became accustomed to the Infiltrator class so much, that one change like the duration one can ruin the class for them.

[Siansonea]

So now you're about as effective as a Soldier/Sentinel/Adept/Engineer/Vanguard, is that it?

[CmnDwnWrkn]

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Rather than toning down the damage to make the cloak more 'teamwork' oriented, they instead forced you to go strictly the route of damage.

How? The opportunity cost of investing in duration is lower (because the other Rank 4 choice offers less damage), and the reward is higher (adds 6 full seconds to your cloak, more than doubling its duration).

This is incorrect. The cost of investing in duration is higher now than it was before because now it's a loss of 4/8 of the bonus instead of 4/9 of the bonus. And the benefit is less in absolute terms, 11.2s vs 14.4s from before. The other choice at rank 4 actually offers the same bonus to damage that it did before. Higher cost, less benefit; and that in addition to the other damage nerfs.

And it's STILL a bigger damage bonus than any other class gets, so what's the point?  Higher cost, less benefit is exactly right.  Previously it had too much benefit with negligible cost.

[nicethugbert]

Tankcommander wrote...
Whereas, if you go duration, as you are now forced to if you want to be of much use to your team at all for, then you don't deal nearly as much damage and are significantly weaker.

Infiltrators still get +40% or +80% damage bonus to powers, that no other class has.  They have Sabotage, Energy Drain, Incinerate, Overload, Arc Grenades, Sticky Grenades, and Proximity Mine depending on which Infiltrator you pick.  All of which get a huge +40% or +80% damage bonus, on a 3 second cooldown, that other classes do not get.  Yet, this is still not enough to make Infiltrators useful to some people.  This damage bonus applies to weapons too.  But, that is still not good enough for some people.  They get to dump aggro.  But that is still not good enough for some people.

Infiltrators are more useful soaking up aggro than dumping it on their team.  Yet, some people think the opposite.  These are not overly serious people.

[nicethugbert]

Siansonea II wrote...

So now you're about as effective as a Soldier/Sentinel/Adept/Engineer/Vanguard, is that it?

Not sure, but, would that be a bad thing?

[nicethugbert]

Chealec wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

GallowsPole wrote...

I don't see a whole lot of complaining of stasis sniping or shotgunning, which in my mind, is no different than using TC to take advantage of damage bonuses. I bet if the Asari vanguard got the same damage bonuses a TC inf would get, they'll be hollering about that.

The reason the cries are starting about arc grenades, again, bonuses/scores.

No one will admit it, but all these game changes are to sate the egos of all sides. When one scores more, it needs to be nerfed.

Ego, ego, ego. All over a video game. I had some college kid yelling at me because somehow, on Giant, I was in his line of fire. I take breaks from Gold to play a more relaxed game on Silver and because I have arthritic hands, which a lot of duck and covering hurts. My god. This is what's in college these days? So I said, well let me fix that. For the rest father round it was raving, BE's and CQC. I was no longer in his line of fire.

Stasis does not dump aggro and the entire team gets the benefit of a captive target and a fair shot at it.  So, you really can't compare Stasis to TC.

If you don't take duration you don't dump aggro either as you'll be cloaked for approximately 3.274 nanoseconds before taking the shot - not even enough time for a caffeine-fuelled Banshee with serious ADHD to get distrcted.

What Stasis does though is much, much worse - if something, say a Phantom, isn't killed while under Stasis it becomes an invisible, invincible killing machine that appears to be on the floor pew-pewing you but is actually up, mobile and getting ready to stab you in the face - far worse for the team than an infiltrator cloaking for a fraction of a second.

You are comparing a bug to something that works as intended.  That's not a good comparison.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 28 juin 2012 - 07:27 .