165 réponses à ce sujet

[Arppis]

Get Harrier, play a soldier, pwn!

[Siansonea]

nicethugbert wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So now you're about as effective as a Soldier/Sentinel/Adept/Engineer/Vanguard, is that it?

Not sure, but, would that be a bad thing?

No. And that's the point. Infiltrators have always been the lowest risk/highest reward class, and people have been smugly bragging about the "skill" they have, evidenced by topping the leaderboard. Well, yeah, if you have a massive damage buff, that simultaneously pulls almost all the aggro away from you, you're going to get a lot of points. Golf clap. 

[Immortal Strife]

Adapt, Darwin, I Ching. Man we got roll with it...

The balance changes to TC are some of the best thus far. Bioware essentially fixed the weight issue, fixed the utility issue and fixed the damage issue. The infiltrator class now requires more attention on builds, more team play to get objectives and revives done, more skill to chain attacks quickly to avoid a massive cool down. I applaud Bioware for their diligent work in balancing the infiltrator.

*Take note that this is coming form a main infiltrator user who beasts on gold and plays with some of the top players on the Xbox-so no I don't get out scored, and that's not why I'm pro nerf.

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 28 juin 2012 - 07:57 .

[Chealec]

nicethugbert wrote...

...

You are comparing a bug to something that works as intended.  That's not a good comparison.

Wasn't supposed to be a good comparison, merely a statement of fact; whether it's a bug or not is irrelevant at the moment because that's what actually happens.

Whereas in most cases, infiltrators dumping aggro DOESN'T actually happen, since they're seldom cloaked long enough to actually drop the aggro on anyone (not that they were very often before the nerf either) ... and there have been many times, playing as an Infiltrator, that I've deliberately drawn aggro away from the team by shooting and lobbing grenades at stuff to draw the aggro and then kiting it away - cloak when it's far enough away and circle back around to the team... gives a bit of breathing space.

You really need to get over this weird hang-up you have about infiltrators - you post exactly the same thing, in almost every infiltrator thread I've ever read... it's kinda like your trolling but nobody really bites.

It's stranger still, because I was in a game with you over the Savage weekend (assuming your Origin ID is the same as your BSN ID - mine isn't but I can't imagine there being 2 nicethugberts), and you're not a bad player, above average in fact, you should be able to cope on the odd occassion that something retargets you when an infiltrator cloaks - especially since that infil will probably be decloaking and railing the thing that's now targetting you; between you it should die pretty fast.

I could understand it if you had only ever played with infiltrators who just cloak and run away, but I've never met one of those, or if you were an utterly useless player who panics as soon as he gets targeted... but you're not; so I really don't get this fixation you have about aggro dumping.

[Tommy 9un]

BoomDynamite wrote...

The problem I have with the change is that it's overdue. Maybe if it was implemented early on, people would have adapted before they got so used to it, but since it was put in 3 months after release, people became accustomed to the Infiltrator class so much, that one change like the duration one can ruin the class for them.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. I original posted after two or three bad matches, the last one taking the biscuit when I was doing less damage than a adept with the same valiant as me (level two). I beleave now that they may have been running some sort of cheat and I have reported them using the Xbox report method. The duration etc is still pretty poop (in my opinion) but just means that instead of reviving people and doing the objectives I'll be doing a lot more traditional sniping, unfortunately as I have learnt today that means muting a lot of players I'll be playing with as the torrent of endless abuse and "your s**t because...." comments were driving me nuts. To the very angry and obviously frustrated gamers who have only been able to comment on my lack of skill etc since I posted this morning, stick it! I wouldn't want to play with your types anyway also just remember it was you and a lot of others whining that infiltrators were such and such in the first place, don't be so hostile when after a nerfing we whine back a bit. This will be my last post on this topic and I apologise for starting what has basically turned a rather heated and in some cases angry debate.

[nicethugbert]

Siansonea II wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

So now you're about as effective as a Soldier/Sentinel/Adept/Engineer/Vanguard, is that it?

Not sure, but, would that be a bad thing?

No. And that's the point. Infiltrators have always been the lowest risk/highest reward class, and people have been smugly bragging about the "skill" they have, evidenced by topping the leaderboard. Well, yeah, if you have a massive damage buff, that simultaneously pulls almost all the aggro away from you, you're going to get a lot of points. Golf clap. 

THIS!

[Pekkan]

Was that adept using that hax which stops someorder the enemy troopers from moving? Good for reporting those cheaters, I'm sure there is no way a Valiant adept could get legitly higher score than you did. 

Modifié par Pekkan, 28 juin 2012 - 08:56 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

This is incorrect. The cost of investing in duration is higher now than it was before because now it's a loss of 4/8 of the bonus instead of 4/9 of the bonus. And the benefit is less in absolute terms, 11.2s vs 14.4s from before. The other choice at rank 4 actually offers the same bonus to damage that it did before. Higher cost, less benefit; and that in addition to the other damage nerfs.

I agree. Rank 4 was a better place to dump 10% damage.

[cuzIMgood]

Tommy 9un wrote...

 My poor infiltrator is near useless, finally got into a couple of matches and I can't kill a damn thing.

Sorry but you must be terrible at this game.

[nicethugbert]

Chealec wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

...

You are comparing a bug to something that works as intended.  That's not a good comparison.

Wasn't supposed to be a good comparison, merely a statement of fact; whether it's a bug or not is irrelevant at the moment because that's what actually happens.

A pointless fact.

Chealec wrote...

Whereas in most cases, infiltrators dumping aggro DOESN'T actually happen, since they're seldom cloaked long enough to actually drop the aggro on anyone (not that they were very often before the nerf either) ... and there have been many times, playing as an Infiltrator, that I've deliberately drawn aggro away from the team by shooting and lobbing grenades at stuff to draw the aggro and then kiting it away - cloak when it's far enough away and circle back around to the team... gives a bit of breathing space.

I'm supposed to take your word over my observations?  No, thx.  I've seen it while playing as infiltrator and non-infiltrator and spectating.  It's not hard to dump aggro at all.  I've done it right in front of bosses and I've seen other people do it too.  As long as there is a non-cloaked player around, they will forget about you while you run away cloaked, even if they can see you.

Chealec wrote...

You really need to get over this weird hang-up you have about infiltrators - you post exactly the same thing, in almost every infiltrator thread I've ever read... it's kinda like your trolling but nobody really bites.

It's stranger still, because I was in a game with you over the Savage weekend (assuming your Origin ID is the same as your BSN ID - mine isn't but I can't imagine there being 2 nicethugberts), and you're not a bad player, above average in fact, you should be able to cope on the odd occassion that something retargets you when an infiltrator cloaks - especially since that infil will probably be decloaking and railing the thing that's now targetting you; between you it should die pretty fast.

I could understand it if you had only ever played with infiltrators who just cloak and run away, but I've never met one of those, or if you were an utterly useless player who panics as soon as he gets targeted... but you're not; so I really don't get this fixation you have about aggro dumping.

Just stick to the topic.

[Chealec]

nicethugbert wrote...

Chealec wrote...

Whereas in most cases, infiltrators dumping aggro DOESN'T actually happen, since they're seldom cloaked long enough to actually drop the aggro on anyone (not that they were very often before the nerf either) ... and there have been many times, playing as an Infiltrator, that I've deliberately drawn aggro away from the team by shooting and lobbing grenades at stuff to draw the aggro and then kiting it away - cloak when it's far enough away and circle back around to the team... gives a bit of breathing space.

I'm supposed to take your word over my observations?  No, thx.  I've seen it while playing as infiltrator and non-infiltrator and spectating.  It's not hard to dump aggro at all.  I've done it right in front of bosses and I've seen other people do it too.  As long as there is a non-cloaked player around, they will forget about you while you run away cloaked, even if they can see you.

Why would you cloak and run away? You cloak, you shoot, you duck back into cover. Rinse and repeat. I must get completely different infiltrators in my games - from my observations it just doesn't happen enough to be worth worrying about.

When I play it doesn't seem matter much if you cloak to hide from some units - primes (and their turrets) will still see you and their plasma shots will still target you so cloaking to avoid aggro has little effect, ditto on rocket troopers, hunters, atlases, turrets and Banshee warp (I've had it curve around cover, while cloaked, to hit me when the Banshee wasn't even targeting me) and any unit that's really close.

Brutes and Ravagers take forever to retarget so you've normally decloaked and shot them again before they've worked out what's happened - and since they die in 2 cloak cycles that's not an issue.

As for Centurians and Marauders, they will continue to fire at where you cloaked - they don't seen to retarget for about a second or two - by which time you've uncloaked and shot them again (if there's more than 1, if there's only one it'll already be dead if you're using a BW or Valiant).

So really, about the only thing that's an issue to have suddenly change target to you is the Banshee as she may teleport and insta-kill you - other than that, meh. The only time recently I've really noticed having any large amount of aggro dumped on me was playing as a QME with 3 Infiltrators - and when you've got Arc grenades, Incinerate and the Scorpion... yeah, bring on the aggro, it just means everything clusters nicely together to be destroyed.

(To be fair though, I normally drop out of the lobby if there are 3 infiltrators as the game will either go bad on an upload objective or it'll just be really, really boring)

I honestly don't seem to have the same issues with infiltrators cloaking that you do.

[Cundu_Ertur]

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Rather than toning down the damage to make the cloak more 'teamwork' oriented, they instead forced you to go strictly the route of damage.

How? The opportunity cost of investing in duration is lower (because the other Rank 4 choice offers less damage), and the reward is higher (adds 6 full seconds to your cloak, more than doubling its duration).

This is incorrect. The cost of investing in duration is higher now than it was before because now it's a loss of 4/8 of the bonus instead of 4/9 of the bonus. And the benefit is less in absolute terms, 11.2s vs 14.4s from before. The other choice at rank 4 actually offers the same bonus to damage that it did before. Higher cost, less benefit; and that in addition to the other damage nerfs.

And it's STILL a bigger damage bonus than any other class gets, so what's the point?  Higher cost, less benefit is exactly right.  Previously it had too much benefit with negligible cost.

The problem is that the other choice is all benefit little cost. Also, previously no one took the extended duration because it had all cost no benefit. Why take 4 extra secons when you already had 10? No-one did it. But if you did take it, it was 4/9 of the damage bonus to do so. Now there's much more pressure on the time (which is perfectly right), but the cost has gone up. It shouldn't be at higher cost now.

[SquirrelWiz]

 I cloak and run away.

It's true!

My theory is... if three of my teammates are fighting in one area, then that means there is a nice juicy flank for me to obliterate somewhere else.

***

As for my view on TC (and to avoid making yet another thread about TC)

Straight duration should have never been an option for the skill, considering that the important part of the skill tends to happen on the back end. A longer cloak is nice, but when you boil it down you have to be consistently cloaking long enough to make the duration worth it. And, the longer you spend in cloak, the less damage you deal.
Instead I think we should have seen an evolution of the ability over the entire length of the skill. Now, these are idea and they're likely very unbalanced, but they're a start.

Tactical Cloak
Base Duration: 6 seconds
Damage Bonus: 40%

Rank 4a - Increase Duration of Cloak by 70% base, extend the duration of the cloak bonus by 1 second after breaking cloak. (This makes multishot weapons more attractive.)

Rank 4b - Increase Damage when cloak breaks by 40%

Rank 5a - Recharge Speed +30%

Rank 5b - +30% Melee Damage while cloaked. Overloads cloak to stagger enemies in a 3m radius when cloak breaks. The base cooldown for cloak is extended by 1 second. (melee tends to put infiltrators in the thick of things, the stagger effect gives the infiltrator a moment respite where they must decide to kill the rest of the group or run for cover. This shouldn't clash with the other burst armors, as A) it does no damage. it is on TC's cooldown, which, at its fastest, is 4 seconds. Ideally the stagger effect shouldn't phase boss level mobs, or shouldn't do so more than once.)

Rank 6a - Regen your shields at 50% rate while cloaked. (admittedly I dont know if this is a good replacement for the bonus power ability. The theory here is that it is more attractive to skirmish style infiltrators, allowing them to stay in combat longer.)

Rank6b - While cloaked, Sniper rifles cause a bleed effect equal to 25% of their potential damage over 2 seconds)

As i've said before, these are just idle musings on my part. They are probably nowhere near balanced.

Modifié par SquirrelWiz, 29 juin 2012 - 01:06 .

[AmicusHumaniGeneris]

Things have changed, infiltrators must adapt. Most infiltrators now seems to have done just that. Fine. But can the other people not playing infiltrators please adapt and STFU with the swearing and whatnot when we don't run over half the map to revive you any more? Especially when we're low level and simply didn't have the chance to actually get the duration upgrade.

[Legendaryred]

Tommy 9un wrote...

StrawHatMoose wrote...

Sorry you have no skill. That's your problem. Learn to play the goddam game.

You know what my granny always used to say if you haven't got anything nice or intresting to say.....shut you mouth. I'm thinking you could learn a lot from her

Then you shouln't be making pointless threads and stop qqing. Adapt or quit, it's that simple.

[nicethugbert]

Chealec wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Chealec wrote...

Whereas in most cases, infiltrators dumping aggro DOESN'T actually happen, since they're seldom cloaked long enough to actually drop the aggro on anyone (not that they were very often before the nerf either) ... and there have been many times, playing as an Infiltrator, that I've deliberately drawn aggro away from the team by shooting and lobbing grenades at stuff to draw the aggro and then kiting it away - cloak when it's far enough away and circle back around to the team... gives a bit of breathing space.

I'm supposed to take your word over my observations?  No, thx.  I've seen it while playing as infiltrator and non-infiltrator and spectating.  It's not hard to dump aggro at all.  I've done it right in front of bosses and I've seen other people do it too.  As long as there is a non-cloaked player around, they will forget about you while you run away cloaked, even if they can see you.

Why would you cloak and run away? You cloak, you shoot, you duck back into cover. Rinse and repeat. I must get completely different infiltrators in my games - from my observations it just doesn't happen enough to be worth worrying about.

When I play it doesn't seem matter much if you cloak to hide from some units - primes (and their turrets) will still see you and their plasma shots will still target you so cloaking to avoid aggro has little effect, ditto on rocket troopers, hunters, atlases, turrets and Banshee warp (I've had it curve around cover, while cloaked, to hit me when the Banshee wasn't even targeting me) and any unit that's really close.

Brutes and Ravagers take forever to retarget so you've normally decloaked and shot them again before they've worked out what's happened - and since they die in 2 cloak cycles that's not an issue.

As for Centurians and Marauders, they will continue to fire at where you cloaked - they don't seen to retarget for about a second or two - by which time you've uncloaked and shot them again (if there's more than 1, if there's only one it'll already be dead if you're using a BW or Valiant).

So really, about the only thing that's an issue to have suddenly change target to you is the Banshee as she may teleport and insta-kill you - other than that, meh. The only time recently I've really noticed having any large amount of aggro dumped on me was playing as a QME with 3 Infiltrators - and when you've got Arc grenades, Incinerate and the Scorpion... yeah, bring on the aggro, it just means everything clusters nicely together to be destroyed.

(To be fair though, I normally drop out of the lobby if there are 3 infiltrators as the game will either go bad on an upload objective or it'll just be really, really boring)

I honestly don't seem to have the same issues with infiltrators cloaking that you do.

Nobody has perfect aim or perfect awareness.  Shots miss.  Targets are suicidal.  Positions get overun. Teams don't always coordinate well.  FUBAR, it happens.

Just today, I got overun.  I was out of my teams sight.  Got whittled down to one health bar.  I ran for safety.  An atlas fired a rocket, straight line right to my back side.  I hit cloak and rolled right putting a column between me and the Atlas.  The rocket kept going forward.  That rocket should have curved around that column and hit me as it has done a million times before.

You don't just cloak and stand there.  You move, preferably out of sight and towards your team.  Give the enemy something else to focus on.  But, that's a scrubby thing to do. 

If you run towards your team where they can see you coming with hostiles chasing or shooting you, and you are not cloaked, you draw the aggro and hopefully, your team can kill your pursuers before you die.  At the least, they will have injured your pursuers before they start drawing fire.

But, to drop all the aggro so it can retarget on them all of a sudden while you regen shields, is too much, and that is what TC makes possible.  It's akin to trainning a mob onto hapless players.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 29 juin 2012 - 01:50 .

[nicethugbert]

AmicusHumaniGeneris wrote...

Things have changed, infiltrators must adapt. Most infiltrators now seems to have done just that. Fine. But can the other people not playing infiltrators please adapt and STFU with the swearing and whatnot when we don't run over half the map to revive you any more? Especially when we're low level and simply didn't have the chance to actually get the duration upgrade.

I do revives with any class.  I don't see why infiltrators need cloak to do revives.

[born2beagator]

I run a GI Shotgun build and I was topping the boards by about 40k on gold last night.

I can't speak for the snipers, but the shotgunners are hardly touched

Modifié par born2beagator, 29 juin 2012 - 02:00 .

[Jzargo]

WARNING:The OP is a noob who does not have any skill and must use infiltrator to even have a chance of doing good.
Best course of action:learn to play the game noob.
Stop relying on infiltrator to win games.Start back at bronze and learn to play the other classes

[robarcool]

Bioware has made the choice between duration and damage drastic, that's all. The damage nerf is hardly noticeable to me on the SI, since I always take the damage (4th rank) and bonus power (6th rank) route. All it does is makes you play with more skill. You can't be lazy when lining up shots. You have to be quick or you lose your cloak.

[robarcool]

nicethugbert wrote...

AmicusHumaniGeneris wrote...

Things have changed, infiltrators must adapt. Most infiltrators now seems to have done just that. Fine. But can the other people not playing infiltrators please adapt and STFU with the swearing and whatnot when we don't run over half the map to revive you any more? Especially when we're low level and simply didn't have the chance to actually get the duration upgrade.

I do revives with any class.  I don't see why infiltrators need cloak to do revives.

I can agree to this point that infiltrators don't need cloak to revive per se, but what I will say is that with an infiltrator, it is possible to revive in situations other classes will fail.

[Cundu_Ertur]

born2beagator wrote...

I run a GI Shotgun build and I was topping the boards by about 40k on gold last night.

I can't speak for the snipers, but the shotgunners are hardly touched

This.
run'n'gunner infiltrators got a 10% nerf and that's it. It's not even a nerf. It's nerf-lite.

[Kick In The Door]

Jzargo wrote...

WARNING:The OP is a noob who does not have any skill and must use infiltrator to even have a chance of doing good.
Best course of action:learn to play the game noob.
Stop relying on infiltrator to win games.Start back at bronze and learn to play the other classes

I'm afraid that makes too much sense...

No, no, what someone like the OP will do is continue queing up where he/she doesn't belong: silver/gold. And he/she will expect to be carried to easy credits. They're worse than leechers, they're selfish scrubs. 

[Immortal Strife]

@nicethugbert

You always post about aggro, what do you want TC to do not have invisability or are you just upset with bad infiltrators?

Modifié par Immortal Strife, 29 juin 2012 - 02:51 .

[robarcool]

Immortal Strife wrote...

@nicethugbert

You always post about aggro, what do you want TC to do not have invisability or are you just upset with bad infiltrators?

He is upset with 'aggro dump'. Many explanations have been given to him by many people, but this is internet lol.