165 réponses à ce sujet

[Chealec]

nicethugbert wrote...

Just today, I got overun.  I was out of my teams sight.  Got whittled
down to one health bar.  I ran for safety.  An atlas fired a rocket,
straight line right to my back side.  I hit cloak and rolled right
putting a column between me and the Atlas.  The rocket kept going
forward.  That rocket should have curved around that column and hit me
as it has done a million times before.

That was the dodge more than anything; you can dodge Atlas and Rocket Trooper Rockets with any high mobility class; it's easiest with Asari. Slightly trickier with Banshee Warp or Prime Plasma shot, you generally have to hit cover.

nicethugbert wrote...

You don't just cloak and stand there.  You move, preferably out of sight and towards your team.  Give the enemy
something else to focus on.  But, that's a scrubby thing to do. 

No, you're right, you don't  just stand there - you cloak, use Sabotage (ED or Proxy Mine) and shoot - or maybe Sabotage then lob a Sticky Grenade if there's a mob (it can trigger a Tech Burst), then shoot. The more time you spend cloaked and running as an infiltrator the less time you're spending making stuff dead... dead stuff hassles no-one.

nicethugbert wrote...

If
you run towards your team where they can see you coming with hostiles
chasing or shooting you, and you are not cloaked, you draw the aggro and
hopefully, your team can kill your pursuers before you die.  At the
least, they will have injured your pursuers before they start drawing
fire.

Why would you even do that? You're kiting bad guys onto your team and if you get downed in the process that's 1 less gun to take them out until you're revived. Hell, if you were to draw them onto your team then cloak and run away that would practically be grief playing. If you get yourself into a bad situation like that, you'd best be able to get yourself out of it, or at least survive until you get backup.

nicethugbert wrote...

But, to drop all the aggro so it can retarget on them all of a sudden while you regen shields, is too much, and that is what TC makes possible.  It's akin to trainning a mob onto hapless players.

So you're going to cloak, wait a couple of seconds until the aggro has dropped (which it'll only do if there's an uncloaked player nearby) and then decloak so you can regen your shields? What an enormous waste of time - just hit cover without cloak wait until you've got a fraction of a shield bar (don't bother to wait until it's full, because of the gating mechanic), cloak and fire again. Hell, better yet, if you're a Salarian - just hit cloak and energy drain and keep on shooting.

I think I get it now - you're not very good with Infiltrators, you don't play aggressively enough.

[nicethugbert]

Chealec wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Just today, I got overun.  I was out of my teams sight.  Got whittled down to one health bar.  I ran for safety.  An atlas fired a rocket, straight line right to my back side.  I hit cloak and rolled right putting a column between me and the Atlas.  The rocket kept going forward.  That rocket should have curved around that column and hit me
as it has done a million times before.

That was the dodge more than anything; you can dodge Atlas and Rocket Trooper Rockets with any high mobility class; it's easiest with Asari. Slightly trickier with Banshee Warp or Prime Plasma shot, you generally have to hit cover.

Even with dodge around corner, I've been hit by atlas rockets, several steps around the corner.  This time, the differenc was cloak.

Chealec wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You don't just cloak and stand there.  You move, preferably out of sight and towards your team.  Give the enemy
something else to focus on.  But, that's a scrubby thing to do. 

No, you're right, you don't  just stand there - you cloak, use Sabotage (ED or Proxy Mine) and shoot - or maybe Sabotage then lob a Sticky Grenade if there's a mob (it can trigger a Tech Burst), then shoot. The more time you spend cloaked and running as an infiltrator the less time you're spending making stuff dead... dead stuff hassles no-one.
 

nicethugbert wrote...

If you run towards your team where they can see you coming with hostiles chasing or shooting you, and you are not cloaked, you draw the aggro and hopefully, your team can kill your pursuers before you die.  At the least, they will have injured your pursuers before they start drawing fire.

Why would you even do that? You're kiting bad guys onto your team and if you get downed in the process that's 1 less gun to take them out until you're revived. Hell, if you were to draw them onto your team then cloak and run away that would practically be grief playing. If you get yourself into a bad situation like that, you'd best be able to get yourself out of it, or at least survive until you get backup.

nicethugbert wrote...

But, to drop all the aggro so it can retarget on them all of a sudden while you regen shields, is too much, and that is what TC makes possible.  It's akin to trainning a mob onto hapless players.

So you're going to cloak, wait a couple of seconds until the aggro has dropped (which it'll only do if there's an uncloaked player nearby) and then decloak so you can regen your shields? What an enormous waste of time - just hit cover without cloak wait until you've got a fraction of a shield bar (don't bother to wait until it's full, because of the gating mechanic), cloak and fire again. Hell, better yet, if you're a Salarian - just hit cloak and energy drain and keep on shooting.

FUBAR.  Your CD is active.  You ran out of bullets.  You are swarmed.  Your team sucks.  Your team is actively being a douche bag.  Nothing ever seems to go horribly wrong when you play.

Incidentally, if your going to have an EZ Mode in a game, TC is among the worst ways to do it.   Better to have a god class with massive defense and offense than to give players the power to screw each other over with aggro dump.  It's one step away from marionette strings.

Chealec wrote...
I think I get it now - you're not very good with Infiltrators, you don't play aggressively enough.

I think you have a facination with me.  That's why you see me in all my descriptions of how others play their infiltrators.

[AlienSpaceBats]

I tried Infiltrator for the first time in a month last night after hearing about these nerfs.
Didn't really notice much of a difference on Quarian and Geth, playing from lvl 1 to 16.

Suggest the player is the problem, not the class.

[Cundu_Ertur]

That's right, one person's subjective evaluation of a class they never play is completely better than that icky math junk.
Math is for sissies.

[FrOoOstBite]

Derek Hollan wrote...

Let's keep it civil, please.

Awwww,I thought this thread woud be interesting,seeing the BioWare stamp on it xD

[SquirrelWiz]

nicethugbert, we all have an organic computer located between our ears (though I fear yours may be a good deal south of there) that can analyze data from multiple inputs simultaneously. This data when combined with the computer's internal memory lets you recognize patterns and formulate plans. So far you have shown that you can do the former. Congratulations.

Let us focus on the latter.

This is a team game, but we fight on our own. Each person is expected to use their abilities to the best of their capability. I cannot force a person into action. I can only set up a situation in which the action is favorable and hope they take it.

When you are fighting, you should be analyzing your situation. Can I feasibly stay there? What is the status of my flank? Do I have an exit route for when I have to leave? What is my position in relation to my teammates? What are my primary targets? If you do this correctly, then an Infiltrator cloaking doesn't matter.

The trick to the game is to be thinking one step ahead of where you are at. I've saved many teams who were overconfident by clearing flank and exits for them. It isn't a class dependent ability.

Finally. Cloak has nothing to do with the chances of missiles to hit you. If the missile is in the air, or launched just as you cloak (keep in mind, most things with missiles can see through cloak) it treats you as uncloaked for the purpose of hitting you. You got a lucky dodge.

[ZephyrAM]

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...

Cundu_Ertur wrote...

rmccowen wrote...

Rather than toning down the damage to make the cloak more 'teamwork' oriented, they instead forced you to go strictly the route of damage.

How? The opportunity cost of investing in duration is lower (because the other Rank 4 choice offers less damage), and the reward is higher (adds 6 full seconds to your cloak, more than doubling its duration).

This is incorrect. The cost of investing in duration is higher now than it was before because now it's a loss of 4/8 of the bonus instead of 4/9 of the bonus. And the benefit is less in absolute terms, 11.2s vs 14.4s from before. The other choice at rank 4 actually offers the same bonus to damage that it did before. Higher cost, less benefit; and that in addition to the other damage nerfs.

And it's STILL a bigger damage bonus than any other class gets, so what's the point?  Higher cost, less benefit is exactly right.  Previously it had too much benefit with negligible cost.

The problem is that the other choice is all benefit little cost. Also, previously no one took the extended duration because it had all cost no benefit. Why take 4 extra secons when you already had 10? No-one did it. But if you did take it, it was 4/9 of the damage bonus to do so. Now there's much more pressure on the time (which is perfectly right), but the cost has gone up. It shouldn't be at higher cost now.

I've been trying to figure out this bit you've been on about for awhile now... and I believe there's an error here.

Previously, TC had base dmg bonus of 50%, and if you took Evo 2, it raised it by 40%, up to 90%. Now, the base dmg is 40%, Evo 2 is still 40%, maxing it at 80%.

That aspect of the evolution didn't change, the 'cost' of not taking it didn't vary, TC simply lost 10% off the base dmg.

Edit: So in your notation style... it was 5/9, now it's 4/8.

Modifié par ZephyrAM, 29 juin 2012 - 04:52 .

[Chealec]

nicethugbert wrote...

I think you have a facination with me.  That's why you see me in all my descriptions of how others play their infiltrators.

Actually - it's probably because you've got one of the more unique avatars on the forum; kinda stands out... and you always use the term "aggro dump" in infiltrator threads. I'd basically just dismissed you as a failed troll and was ignoring pretty much everything you wrote but then I got dropped into a gold PuG with you, over the mic you seemed like a reasonable human being; polite and helpful.

So I figured I'd make an effort to try and see your viewpoint, that's all... I could have messaged you rather than derailing this thread I suppose. Oh well.

[Olivia Wilde]

I speced my cloak for duration..so i only lost 2 seconds

still enough time to activate a device and start running or revive a teammate

(11.2 seconds vs 13.6)

I don't play infiltrators a lot

[1337haxwtg]

I find it funny that so many people are complaining about it. Tell me what other class gets that high of a universal damage boost?

[Subtle Riot]

InfamousResult wrote...

Subtle Riot wrote...

So being able to keep a phantom from attacking you with stasis, getting a free headshot, AND getting a damage bonus for it.. isn't having multiple abilities in one? How about when you throw in that you can BE it?

No, that isn't having "multiple abilities in one"- that's doing exactly what Stasis does. Freezing an opponent in place. The freezing the opponent / getting the headshot are one in the same. The damage bonus, I'll give to you, is in fact a bonus- but as I pointed out before, it is not on par with TC's damage bonus, it has a weight-affected cooldown unlike TC, and freezing one enemy and having a damage bonus on just that one enemy is not the same as being able to cloak, more easily revive teammates, more easily capture objectives, and being able to spread your damage bonus to several enemies in the same timespan as a Stasis sniper because of a 3-second cooldown on an ability that doesn't just affect a single shot.

Stasis is nowhere near Tactical Cloak, even after the rebalance.

Now show me where I said it was near TC? I thought I was pointing out that it had multiple purposes.

Then you forgot to touch on BIOTIC EXPLOSION. So, try again please. It freezes, sets it up for biotic explosion, and gives a damage boost.. Yeah, you're right. It definitely doesn't do multiple things.

Modifié par Subtle Riot, 30 juin 2012 - 11:02 .

[Tankcommander]

1337haxwtg wrote...

I find it funny that so many people are complaining about it. Tell me what other class gets that high of a universal damage boost?

I am complaining the nerf heavily encourages me to go strictly damage. Before, I could use my cloak to help out my teammates, but also deal out the pain. Now, because people whined that the TC was a 'massive damage boost' button, it ironically became it. You go duration or damage now, and if you don't go duration then you use TC as a damage boost button.

In the vast majority of matches, especially randoms, damage > duration, so now I am no longer a 'team player' but instead a warmonger. I get more revives with my Batarian Soldier now.

I'd have been happy to take duration if it would allow me to revive once without breaking cloak, or lasted 25 seconds, etc, but forcing me to choose it because base cloak was halved? Hah, forget that. If it wasn't for the huge universal damage bonus I still get I'd stick exclusively to my PA and my Soldiers.

[Wolf_Mar09]

I think your being a bit too harsh on Bioware, and a little unfair to leave just because something changed. Just get used to it, I'm sure if you keep at it, it'll be fine. Maybe it doesn't play like it used to, just keep getting better. I seen plenty of infiltrators doing excellent, I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but if they are doing fine, and your not, then maybe it's a skill problem.

[TOMMOEX]

the cloak damage is still 80% I've never needed to use the extra 40% from the sniper pre patch anyways, plus its seems your playstyle is very reliant on just the damage, the infiltrator is one of the most versatile classes, e.g. use energy drain paired with your tc or proxy bomb extra damage stack with tc, and maybe even hunter mode, the nerf of cloak time has now made the other choice useful, beforehand there was no incentive to increase cloak time.

The reason why the statis sniper is beating you is because you've obviously been too at ease with the infiltrator, also 'don't quote me but I think there are 5 other classes'. the infiltrator is still very dominant in my books and all you need is a change in timing and playstyle instead of just tc and waiting for the shot.

[Dot.Shadow]

The infiltrator nerfs are too much. I can deal with reduced damage, but such an extremely short cloak? No way Bioware, no way.

[Cundu_Ertur]

ZephyrAM wrote...

I've been trying to figure out this bit you've been on about for awhile now... and I believe there's an error here.

Previously, TC had base dmg bonus of 50%, and if you took Evo 2, it raised it by 40%, up to 90%. Now, the base dmg is 40%, Evo 2 is still 40%, maxing it at 80%.

That aspect of the evolution didn't change, the 'cost' of not taking it didn't vary, TC simply lost 10% off the base dmg.

Edit: So in your notation style... it was 5/9, now it's 4/8.

No, the cost to take duration before was 4/9. You got 5/9 at rank one. Now you get 4/8 at rank one, and 4/8 optionally at rank 4. 4/9<4/8 in every jurisdiction which means the cost is higher now. Also, before you got 14.4 seconds of cloak with the duration option, now you get 11.2.
14.4>11.2 in every jurisdiction, too, so now you get less. So in two ways before is better than now in cost and result. That's what I'm saying. The PROPORTIONAL cost has gone up.