69 réponses à ce sujet

[LiarasShield]

How you see it that the new cycle made the same mistakes we did and were force to use the crucible and their only solution the way I see it they didn't use the crucible but spent those hundreds or thousands of years preparing or looking for another way other then what failed for us to beat the reapers or establish peace with them so that they wouldn't have to fight

[JamieCOTC]

Talk to Hackett about Galactic readiness w/ a high 100% EMS score. The galaxy is handing the Reapers their asses. While the casualties would have been in the billions and would have taken centuries to win, it should have been a possibility to beat the Reapers conventionally.

[LiarasShield]

These are the reasons that I'm glad I chose refuse


Control you main eternal power as the new catalyst but do you know that you will remain pure forever or that the power won't corrupt you some day no you don't right?


Synthesis why would I want to force everybody to be part synthetic or organic against their wills to me this isn't a right way to achieve peace


Why should I destroy a entire allied race just to watch the reapers burn

I believe in the freedom of the choice and the galaxy maknig its own decisions that is why I chose Refuse To begin with!!!!!

[Bizantura]

It is not about reality it is about seeding ideas. And that ME3 does that well especially now with the extended cut. Control and synthesis may be repugnant for a few players but give it time.
Repetition and repetition and after some years it will become the norm.

[Redbelle]

Maybe this will help. I posted it on another thread but it's a POV on the rejection ending from Forbes

http://www.forbes.co...of-mass-effect/

[LiarasShield]

People just see refuse as terrible because we lose this cycle they don't see the real reason why some players would choose that over the other three choices

[Redbelle]

LiarasShield wrote...

People just see refuse as terrible because we lose this cycle they don't see the real reason why some players would choose that over the other three choices

I think it's down to what ppl were saying to BW during the 3 months between release and ECDLC.

Something along the lines of "We don't want to do as the SC tells us too." Ergo, when faced by a race that is to mighty to win conventionally against Shep's team loses.

However.......

Depsite losing, the Shep team has bitten a massive chunk out of the Reaper force. They are weaker than they have been in a long time so Shep is, in essense, refusing to stoop to the Cateaper's methods, signing away their cycles future on the hope that Liara's time capsule will give the next cycle the chance they need to beat the Reapers without crucible aid.

That link I posted earlier goes into this line of thinking in much more detail.

Modifié par Redbelle, 28 juin 2012 - 09:08 .

[Geneaux486]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...
The Crucible didn't work in the Protheans' time either, but we still used it.

The Crucible was never finished in the Prothean's time. Try to keep up.

Damn it, 'd

Okay first of all: 

The latest species to try, the Protheans, were able to construct the Crucible, but before they could deploy it, infighting broke out between those who wanted to use it to destroy the Reapers and a faction that believed they could use it to control the Reapers; these separatists were later discovered to be indoctrinated.

Source:  http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Crucible

So you can go ahead and stop with the condescension.

Secondly, it wouldn't even matter if you were right, because the point is that obviously the Crucible is never going to have stopped the Reapers in a previous cycle if the Reapers are still there.  Just because Liara said "We tried to use the Crucible and it didn't work" does not mean that the next cycle wouldn't try as well.  Liara also followed that with "This is the recounting of our war with the Reapers" or whatever the exact wording was, so unless you think the message just stopped right then and there, you know that Liara was going to go into detail about the whole thing, including why the Crucible didn't work.  There is absolutely nothing about those circumstances that would make using it sound unappealing to the following cycle.  In fact, the opposite will be the case, seeing as how it was primed and ready to stop the Reapers and only failed due to user error.

People just see refuse as terrible because we lose this cycle they don't see the real reason why some players would choose that over the other three choices

It's terrible because it involves Shepard comdemning his friends and allies to death and Reaperfication when the alternative was, you know, total victory against the Reapers.

I find it funny when people who support refuse also denounce synthesis on the grounds that Shepard has no right to make that choice on behalf of everyone, but deciding that everyone should die is perfectly okay! XD  Yes, the Crucible comes with a difficult decision, and there's no perfect choice, but so what?  That's not Shepard's fault, the blame rests on the Reapers for pushing things to such an extreme.  Shepard's gotta clean up the mess, but he can't clean it up if he walks away.  Basically, nut up and make a choice, Shepard!

Modifié par Geneaux486, 28 juin 2012 - 10:22 .

[Festilence]

Guccimayne wrote...

Grifman1 wrote...

Guccimayne wrote...

As much as I delighted in unloading my pistol into Starchild, I don't understand how in the post game, it is revealed that the next cycle actually defeated the Reapers. Surely this time around, the crucible was an acknowledged threat and the citadel would have been on lockdown or modified from day 1 in order to prevent its docking.

And even if that is not the case and they did fire up the crucible thousands of years before the reapers arrived, would they even be affected? They only leave one reaper in the galaxy and then they fly off to dark space where they are (presumably) safe. They can make their rounds without the relays, so at best the next cycle shot itself in the foot.

"Conventional warfare" is the only conceivable solution to how the next cycle beat the reapers, yet it is "stressed" that it is impossible in our time. And that makes no sense to me. Did the reapers knowingly let themselves be defeated by the crucible or were they outgunned somehow?

Duh, the next cycle build their own crucible using Liara's information.  No need for them to use the current one.

Their own crucible would still require the citadel, no? And the reapers now know the galaxy's inhabitants aren't messing around with that thing. How could they be fooled twice into thinking the plans were not passed down? That's insanity right there.

If further Cycles were to work on a "Crucible" i.e. a Weapon that could end the Reaper threat, they may develop it to be activated in a different way than using the Citadel.  I think Vendetta talks about how, overtime, different cycles developed the Crucible to incorporate the use of the Citadel, implying that wasn't how they intended to use the Weapon originally.

Future Cycles aren't forced to come up with the same ideas for how to build and use such a Weapon.

Also Speculations.

Modifié par Festilence, 28 juin 2012 - 10:29 .

[Geneaux486]

Festilence wrote...
If further Cycles were to work on a "Crucible" i.e. a Weapon that could end the Reaper threat, they may develop it to be activated in a different way than using the Citadel.  I think Vendetta talks about how, overtime, different cycles developed the Crucible to incorporate the use of the Citadel, implying that wasn't how they intended to use the Weapon originally.

Future Cycles aren't forced to come up with the same ideas for how to build and use such a Weapon.

Also Speculations.

The next cycle would have been able to use the Citadel anyway.  The Catalyst agreed that the Crucible could do things better than the Reapers, the only reason it didn't work out was because Shepard decided it would be a fun idea to get everyone killed.  Next cycle gets it's **** together, the Catalyst will probably let it be used.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 28 juin 2012 - 10:31 .

[IanPolaris]

Redbelle wrote...

Maybe this will help. I posted it on another thread but it's a POV on the rejection ending from Forbes

http://www.forbes.co...of-mass-effect/

Apparently the author of this piece forgot to talk to Gamble because Gamble's tweet in his official capacity with Bioware renders the entire premise of the article moot and false.  Why?  The next cycle plays "Pick your warcrime" instead.

-Polaris

[Geneaux486]

IanPolaris wrote...
Apparently the author of this piece forgot to talk to Gamble because Gamble's tweet in his official capacity with Bioware renders the entire premise of the article moot and false.  Why?  The next cycle plays "Pick your warcrime" instead.

-Polaris

Doing what you were ordered to do by superiors with the support of a united galactic fleet when no other option is available =/= war crime.

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

IanPolaris wrote...
Apparently the author of this piece forgot to talk to Gamble because Gamble's tweet in his official capacity with Bioware renders the entire premise of the article moot and false.  Why?  The next cycle plays "Pick your warcrime" instead.

-Polaris

If you talking about Gamble's tweet about Crucible, with all due respect, tweets by staff do not make canon (unless they are parts of sanctioned series of events like Emily Wong story arc). Gamble is not even a writer, and he does not make game on his own. If he would, he will just easily order Stargazer VA to say "we've build our own crucible", but it wasn't done.
Also, even if you assume that Crucible was built, nothing forces the premise that is still could not be further improved by next cycle and actually discriminate against Reapers only, not requiring to kill all Synthetics.

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 28 juin 2012 - 10:42 .

[saracen16]

Guccimayne wrote...

As much as I delighted in unloading my pistol into Starchild, I don't understand how in the post game, it is revealed that the next cycle actually defeated the Reapers. Surely this time around, the crucible was an acknowledged threat and the citadel would have been on lockdown or modified from day 1 in order to prevent its docking. AFAIK the crucible still needs the starchild's input.. he just let it go with no resistance? What was the point of the fighting at Earth?

And even if that is not the case and they did fire up the crucible thousands of years before the reapers arrived without needing Starchild, would the reapers even be affected? They only leave one reaper in the galaxy and then they fly off to dark space where they are (presumably) safe. They can make their rounds without the relays, so at best the next cycle shot itself in the foot.

"Conventional warfare" is the only conceivable solution to how the next cycle beat the reapers, yet it is "stressed" that it is impossible in our time. And that makes no sense to me. Did the reapers knowingly let themselves be defeated by the crucible or were they outgunned somehow?

No, it isn't. The next cycle used the Crucible, not conventional warfare.

[IanPolaris]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Apparently the author of this piece forgot to talk to Gamble because Gamble's tweet in his official capacity with Bioware renders the entire premise of the article moot and false.  Why?  The next cycle plays "Pick your warcrime" instead.

-Polaris

If you talking about Gamble's tweet about Crucible, with all due respect, tweets by staff do not make canon (unless they are parts of sanctioned series of events like Emily Wong story arc). Gamble is not even a writer, and he does not make game on his own. If he would, he will just easily order Stargazer VA to say "we've build our own crucible", but it wasn't done.
Also, even if you assume that Crucible was built, nothing forces the premise that is still could not be further improved by next cycle and actually discriminate against Reapers only, not requiring to kill all Synthetics.

I agree, but it DOES show, reflect, and is our best window into the intent and thoughts of the developement team,and in this case it clearly tells (me anyway) that it was meant to be a big FU.

-Polaris

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Geneaux486 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Apparently the author of this piece forgot to talk to Gamble because Gamble's tweet in his official capacity with Bioware renders the entire premise of the article moot and false.  Why?  The next cycle plays "Pick your warcrime" instead.

-Polaris

Doing what you were ordered to do by superiors with the support of a united galactic fleet when no other option is available =/= war crime.

Actually, at least during Nuremberg Trials it was decided that "I've just followed orders" could not serve as a defense against war crime.

[IanPolaris]

Geneaux486 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Apparently the author of this piece forgot to talk to Gamble because Gamble's tweet in his official capacity with Bioware renders the entire premise of the article moot and false.  Why?  The next cycle plays "Pick your warcrime" instead.

-Polaris

Doing what you were ordered to do by superiors with the support of a united galactic fleet when no other option is available =/= war crime.

Actually per Nuremberg and the standards of the ICCC it is. 

-Polaris

[Bill Casey]

Guccimayne wrote...

How so? We passed down our information, yes.. but that implies that we had the tech to destroy them in the first place. I would argue that is true since we supposedly have thanix cannons on everything with an engine, yet somehow they didn't do very much at all. 

Despite Shepard's best efforts, this cycle was grossly unprepared for the Reaper threat...

[mauro2222]

Hmmm... this makes the Reapers and Starkid look even more stupid. In our cycle, Sovereign was monitoring our development, it was the responsable for the Rachni Wars and indirectly responsable for the Krogan rebellion, all methods to weaken the galaxy and keep us in check. So... they didn't knew about the next cycle knowing of their existence, knowing how to defeat them, theu didn't knew about all the preparations the galaxy was making to fight them, they also didn't knew about them building another crucible? What the hell happened?

Modifié par mauro2222, 28 juin 2012 - 11:10 .

[Geneaux486]

Ingvarr Stormbird wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Apparently the author of this piece forgot to talk to Gamble because Gamble's tweet in his official capacity with Bioware renders the entire premise of the article moot and false.  Why?  The next cycle plays "Pick your warcrime" instead.

-Polaris

Doing what you were ordered to do by superiors with the support of a united galactic fleet when no other option is available =/= war crime.

Actually, at least during Nuremberg Trials it was decided that "I've just followed orders" could not serve as a defense against war crime.

What was decided about following orders backed by the entirety of Earth's government, a united galactic fleet, and ultimately the enemy itself as well?

The point is that calling the use of the Crucible a war crime when it's literally the only way to secure the survival of the current civilizations and its use was agreed upon by everyone is pretty twisted.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 juin 2012 - 12:54 .