222 réponses à ce sujet

[RDSFirebane]

Dendio1 wrote...

Allowing conventional victory over the reapers would be the most insulting, lore breaking thing they could do to the series. It would be worse than space magic. The entire threat of the reapers and the backbone of the series is dependent upon the reapers being an actual threat.

If all we need to do is band up and fight as one then the reapers have been nerfed beyond recognition. The entire crucible plot is rendered pointless, and we should have just allowed the reapers to come on over by the end of ME2.

Defeating the reapers wouldnt have been the first unconverntional thing we did in game or did u just space out when the Normandy crew took on the entire Collector army in its own base after showing up through a Gate that was thought to be certain death.

and thats only one unconverntional thing I completely over looked them bringing him back to life.

[survivor_686]

Bear in mind, it has been repeated by Hackett and others that defeating the Reaper conventionally is impossible.

[Darth Asriel]

NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE CRUCIBLE DOES!!!!

Why is that so hard to get. Everyone who says you can't win conventionally keeps saying the crucible is the only way. But again Hackett doesn't know what it does, how it works, if it's really a weapon. Sane for Liara, Shepard, the scientists building the fraking thing. NO ONE has any clue about it. Yet they are pouring massive amounts of resources into it.

The Protheans lost because: they were already in a bloody war with synthetics, the Reapers showed up, took over the Citadel, turned off the relays, separated the Prothean empire into smaller chunks and went about destroying it. And the Protheans still lasted centuries. They had to fight a war of attrition because they could not unite. Each area was isolated. We were not.

[Pitznik]

LoboFH wrote...


How old are you?

Do you need a happy Hollywood ending always to go warm to bed?

These endings are about choices, sacrifices, free will. The refusal ending is the shout of a free man who refuses to eat the crap of the Catalyst and chooses to stand up even if he dies trying. But they will fight.

Some defeats are better than victories.

While I see some charm in the refusal ending/epilogue, I don't really think Shepard has the right to refuse - sacrifing whole galaxy of your age in the name of principles and morals might look good, but there is too much responsibility on him that he could afford it. Just a slight OT.

[77boy84]

survivor_686 wrote...

Bear in mind, it has been repeated by Hackett and others that defeating the Reaper conventionally is impossible.

Conventional warfare is only impossible to justify the crucible's existence, and to get out of having to give meaningful consequences to your choices in ME1+2

Modifié par 77boy84, 28 juin 2012 - 06:37 .

[savionen]

saracen16 wrote...

And OP, BioWare is not "insulting" you by choosing to stick to its story: defeating the Reapers unconventionally, as it is the only way to defeat this fleet of nigh-unstoppable, highly advanced, and numerous sentient warships.

That explains all the retconning.

[WarBaby2]

Malditor wrote...
Except that the crucible did work for them in the next cycle. Good try.

Ok, now we are in a logic circle too, it seams...

The catalyst stated that it did not know the crucible was still around, meaning: If it had known about it, it would have been destroyed by the reapers before it every reached the Citadel... or even could be finshed... but now that it was not used (and most probably destroyed) the calalyst knows about it, and the first thing the reapers will do when the next cycle comes up is what? Exactly, destroy the crucible!

[Pitznik]

RDSFirebane wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Allowing conventional victory over the reapers would be the most insulting, lore breaking thing they could do to the series. It would be worse than space magic. The entire threat of the reapers and the backbone of the series is dependent upon the reapers being an actual threat.

If all we need to do is band up and fight as one then the reapers have been nerfed beyond recognition. The entire crucible plot is rendered pointless, and we should have just allowed the reapers to come on over by the end of ME2.

Defeating the reapers wouldnt have been the first unconverntional thing we did in game or did u just space out when the Normandy crew took on the entire Collector army in its own base after showing up through a Gate that was thought to be certain death.

and thats only one unconverntional thing I completely over looked them bringing him back to life.

You don't get it. Unconventional defeat of Reapers isn't a problem, just conventional is.

unconventional means -> Crucible. Stupid, yeah, but possible.
conventional means -> deafeating reapers through force of arms. Impossible.

Darth Asriel wrote...

NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE CRUCIBLE DOES!!!!

Why
is that so hard to get. Everyone who says you can't win conventionally
keeps saying the crucible is the only way. But again Hackett doesn't
know what it does, how it works, if it's really a weapon. Sane for
Liara, Shepard, the scientists building the fraking thing. NO ONE has
any clue about it. Yet they are pouring massive amounts of resources
into it.

The Protheans lost because: they were already in a
bloody war with synthetics, the Reapers showed up, took over the
Citadel, turned off the relays, separated the Prothean empire into
smaller chunks and went about destroying it. And the Protheans still
lasted centuries. They had to fight a war of attrition because they
could not unite. Each area was isolated. We were not.

They know what Crucible does, just not how it works exactly. They know this is somehow in some way a solution to Reapers, and that Protheans also believed it. That's little, but enough to rely on it.

Also, Reapers are undefeatable by conventional means. Period. Bioware said so, so your arguement is pretty much pointless.

[richard_rider]

"Despite the Crucible's elegant design, modern scientists could only determine that the device exploited the technology of mass relays, and were left to speculate on how it would ultimately function."

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Crucible

[Malditor]

WarBaby2 wrote...

Malditor wrote...
Except that the crucible did work for them in the next cycle. Good try.

Ok, now we are in a logic circle too, it seams...

The catalyst stated that it did not know the crucible was still around, meaning: If it had known about it, it would have been destroyed by the reapers before it every reached the Citadel... or even could be finshed... but now that it was not used (and most probably destroyed) the calalyst knows about it, and the first thing the reapers will do when the next cycle comes up is what? Exactly, destroy the crucible!

It's sad that you think you can refute the fact that it did work in the next cycle when the ending shows it does. How would the reapers be able to destroy it if it is triggered as soon as the reapers are spotted?
We can speculate how or why it was able to work the next cycle all we want, but the fact is *based on BW* that it did in fact get used to stop the reapers during that cycle.

[WarBaby2]

Malditor wrote...
It's sad that you think you can refute the fact that it did work in the next cycle when the ending shows it does. How would the reapers be able to destroy it if it is triggered as soon as the reapers are spotted?
We can speculate how or why it was able to work the next cycle all we want, but the fact is *based on BW* that it did in fact get used to stop the reapers during that cycle.

Rewatch the scene... all we know is the reapers have been defeated... not how. I just doubt the crucible would work a second time, that's all.

[Miekkas]

What I find annoying is how the throughout the story characters mention that conventional warfare will not win the war, but on the Main Tile Screen with Galactic Readiness at 90% or more, it says that Allied forces are holding steady and winning in key locations...The only explanation I can think of is that even though the allied forces are winning in key locations, the Reapers will eventually just drain all resources.

[darkchief10]

WarBaby2 wrote...

Malditor wrote...
It's sad that you think you can refute the fact that it did work in the next cycle when the ending shows it does. How would the reapers be able to destroy it if it is triggered as soon as the reapers are spotted?
We can speculate how or why it was able to work the next cycle all we want, but the fact is *based on BW* that it did in fact get used to stop the reapers during that cycle.

Rewatch the scene... all we know is the reapers have been defeated... not how. I just doubt the crucible would work a second time, that's all.

mike gamble confirmed on twiter that the crucible was used
that is all.

[WarBaby2]

Miekkas wrote...

What I find annoying is how the throughout the story characters mention that conventional warfare will not win the war, but on the Main Tile Screen with Galactic Readiness at 90% or more, it says that Allied forces are holding steady and winning in key locations...The only explanation I can think of is that even though the allied forces are winning in key locations, the Reapers will eventually just drain all resources.

Simple, because originally the EMS should determine how high you can win... the crucible determined that cou can win at all... BW already stated in an interview last year that loosing the game will not be possible...

[WarBaby2]

darkchief10 wrote...

mike gamble confirmed on twiter that the crucible was used
that is all.

Oh, in that case... sure, whatever...

[wizardryforever]

Darth Asriel wrote...

NO ONE KNOWS WHAT THE CRUCIBLE DOES!!!!

Why is that so hard to get. Everyone who says you can't win conventionally keeps saying the crucible is the only way. But again Hackett doesn't know what it does, how it works, if it's really a weapon. Sane for Liara, Shepard, the scientists building the fraking thing. NO ONE has any clue about it. Yet they are pouring massive amounts of resources into it.

The Protheans lost because: they were already in a bloody war with synthetics, the Reapers showed up, took over the Citadel, turned off the relays, separated the Prothean empire into smaller chunks and went about destroying it. And the Protheans still lasted centuries. They had to fight a war of attrition because they could not unite. Each area was isolated. We were not.

It does not matter.  The Crucible is the only thing with even a chance at defeating the Reapers.  Nothing else comes close to what is possible with the Crucible.  And yes, they do know that it is a weapon capable of "unquantifiable levels of destruction."  That alone is enough to pin your hopes on it.  If you're in an unwinnable situation, and you receive what is ultimately a wild card that could win the war for you single-handedly, you can't afford to play it safe.  You put everything you have into that wild card, because you know without a shadow of a doubt that nothing else has even the slightest chance of working.

The Protheans lasted so long because they were so widespread.  But the harvest will take decades or centuries regardless, because the galaxy is a big place, and the Reapers have to be thorough to achieve their objective.  Even united, we stand no chance in a long term conflict against the Reapers.  They have numbers, technology, and strategic advantage over us.  We have nothing at all over them.  Except the Crucible.  And yet, you claim that the Crucible should be ignored in favor of confronting the Reapers where they have all the advantages.  Are you insane?

[Garlador]

Hackett; "We can't win by conventional means."
The Council: "We can't win by conventional means."
Anderson: "We can't win by conventional means."
Turian Primarch: "We can't win by conventional means."
EDI: "We can't win by conventional means."
Liara; "We can't win by conventional means."
Illusive Man: "We can't win by conventional means."
Javik: "We didn't win using conventional means."

*tries to win using conventional means. Fails. Acts upset about it*

[john v rambo]

Think back to ME1. Look at how much military might was required to take down a single reaper. Now we have the entire Reaper fleet. It`s simply not possible to go head to head with the Reapers and win. There is a reason no other cycle had even come close to stopping them.

[HooblaDGN]

Because conventional warfare, they will say. Since, you know, uniting every force that you can in the galaxy and delaying the Reapers for the first time ever and getting the crucible built at all are all incredibly conventional, and Shepard has never proven the impossible as not so before in any of the rest of the series.

Lore certainly seems to support that we would at least be able to inflict heavy losses on the Reapers, if not win. 4 dreadnoughts focused on a Reaper will destroy it, perhaps even less if they focus on heat-based weaponry. And dreadnoughts can definitely take a few hits before they go down. If you look at the actual forces present at Earth, there are not nearly 10000 or even 1000 Reapers there as they are probably still spread across much of the galaxy, and this could easily be used to our advantage. A force so heavily split is a very vulnerable one and I can think of no good reason that the force at Earth would not actually be relatively easy to defeat; even if Reaper reinforcements started hopping in they would arrive at different times and thus be burnt down.

Modifié par HooblaDGN, 28 juin 2012 - 07:13 .

[RobertM525]

Darth Asriel wrote...

RobertM525- the reapers relied on a sneak ambush, overtook the Citadel(the heart of all government) disabled the relays, and mopped up any resistance. They never had to face an all out united galaxy. The Protheans were the closest they ever had to face, and they lasted centuries. If the Reapers are as invincible as you and BW want me to believe, why go through all the trouble they did.

Umm... no. They do not stealthily defeat people. They brute-force stomp everyone. It's more efficient for them to take everyone out on the Citadel in the first wave, but it doesn't really matter. There have been countless cycles before this. They all failed. We are not special.

The only hope we have comes from trying to use something that the other cycles had discovered, a way to use the Reapers' own tech against them. This was the Crucible.

Also, "as Bioware wants you to believe"? What? They made the Reapers up—they're as strong as Bioware wants them to be!

[Spartas Husky]

Because they betrayed their own rules of effort+time equal control over our own choices. The Illusion of control simply because someone gives you a, b,c isn't control over your choices, someone already took the control from you.

[Darth Asriel]

Hey Wizardryforever, Hackett says "we still don't know how the d--n thing works." that's a stupid plan!! How does he know the Reapers didn't leave it there on purpose? How does he know it's not the Reapers final trap? He has no evidence that the crucible will work. But we do know that we developed new weapons after we fought Sovereign. We know that the Normandy took out the collector ship with 2 shots from a Thanix Cannon. We know Turian Fighters are equipped with Thanix Cannons. No one in there right mind would waste resources and time on the crucible. Too many unknown variables

[RobertM525]

77boy84 wrote...

survivor_686 wrote...

Bear in mind, it has been repeated by Hackett and others that defeating the Reaper conventionally is impossible.

Conventional warfare is only impossible to justify the crucible's existence, and to get out of having to give meaningful consequences to your choices in ME1+2

No, conventional warfare is impossible because that's what Bioware has been saying since ME1. Killing one "Sovereign-class Reaper" was damn near impossible. So when a fleet of them show up, yeah, you're not just gonna band together and kick their asses. They attack before the galaxy is strong enough to defeat them conventionally. They decide when the war starts.

Before ME3 came out, I was worried they would make it into exactly what people in this thread want: gather allies and beat the Reapers in a conventional war. What, every other cycle was wiped out because they didn't "try hard enough?" You have to do something different. The Crucible is that "something different."

Yes, it should've been introduced earlier (like in ME2), but it's a solid plot device. When you make villains that are unstoppable, you can't turn around and make them killable in the last act. You have to bring in something else to do it.

[Pitznik]

RobertM525 wrote...

77boy84 wrote...

survivor_686 wrote...

Bear in mind, it has been repeated by Hackett and others that defeating the Reaper conventionally is impossible.

Conventional warfare is only impossible to justify the crucible's existence, and to get out of having to give meaningful consequences to your choices in ME1+2

No, conventional warfare is impossible because that's what Bioware has been saying since ME1. Killing one "Sovereign-class Reaper" was damn near impossible. So when a fleet of them show up, yeah, you're not just gonna band together and kick their asses. They attack before the galaxy is strong enough to defeat them conventionally. They decide when the war starts.

Before ME3 came out, I was worried they would make it into exactly what people in this thread want: gather allies and beat the Reapers in a conventional war. What, every other cycle was wiped out because they didn't "try hard enough?" You have to do something different. The Crucible is that "something different."

Yes, it should've been introduced earlier (like in ME2), but it's a solid plot device. When you make villains that are unstoppable, you can't turn around and make them killable in the last act. You have to bring in something else to do it.

I would actually prefer a real war and defeating Reapers in conventional way, or even better - hit them before they hit us, use knowledge from ME1 and ME2 to attack them and fight them on our own terms - attacking the Reapers would be pretty unconventional and could be that deciding factor that would let us win But that would have to be an entirely different game. In the game we got, Reapers are impossible to defeat through military strength - that's how it was decided by Bioware. If Hackett tells us it is impossible, he knows better, because it is BIoware speaking.

Worst thing is, ME3 doesn't make any use of the fact we knew about the Reapers before they attacked. We were just lucky to find Crucible when we did - even if we had early warning compared to other cycles, we didn't use it :/ Crucible showing as early as ME2 would indeed be much more fitting.

Modifié par Pitznik, 28 juin 2012 - 07:46 .

[xLeth]

I dont think I can come up with constructive criticism about the refusal ending ... so i'll have to agree with OP... it was their way of telling us "there's your ending, you failed, go back and chose one of the artistic ones"