Whole logic of Catalyst is failing again and again is moving in circles – in my country we have such a funny comparison we call it – wandering dutch. The Catalyst is trying to decieve you with endless circle of reversed answers... his logic simple crushing conclusion logic
Catalyst – itself:
He still doesn´t make a sense – if you like it or not, that part of conversation which is supposed to answer the question is simple not enough to answer questions, because he is in fact negate reasons for ME1, if he was always present on Citadel than the whole Mass Effect1 is pointless.
- Ilos, Protheans, Keepers, Sovergein ... this all was pointless story which lead to blind alley, but why it doesn´t make a sense ?
I need to stop the Reapers, do you know how to do that ?
Perhaps, I control the Reapers - they are my solution .
So the Catalyst is one who is controling the reapers, so he should be able to order his solution to stop.
If he is not able to do so than he should a VI or shackled AI (like EDI on Normandy SR2) but he is not shackled, he already proves it – long ago when he rebelled agaisnt his creators which means he has a free will.
These choices which he placed before Shepard are from part very crazy stuff, each of them presenting in some way wicked choice, none of them can end conflict in our favor.
Solution, to what ?
Chaos.Created will always rebel against their Creators - but found a way to stop that from happening - to restore order.
That´s kinda funny when we realize later in conversation, who rebelled against own creators, and force them into first reaper form. Only one who bring a chaos to galaxy is his solution, there was never chaos neither order in the galaxy – it´s a way which it´s work.
I think we rather keep our own form
No you can´t, without us to stop it synthetics will destroy all organics - we created the cycle so that never happens.
This is again in conflict:
- in first : I managed to stop 300 years old war, and in fact I found that Geths have no desire in killing Quarians and also not all Quarians had desire in their killing.
- Or: Without us ? But wait – you said that you are the Catalyst owner of Reapers and not the Reaper itself, which means that with every second of this conversation I am wasting my time here because you are liar .
- So we can´t keep our form? But it means that no matter what cycle must continue and this conversation is pointless – because we can´t change it.
- True AI would consider every other option but this whole conversaton turning a possibility that Catalyst that is an AI to false.
Crucible changed me to find a new solution, but I can´t act.
So wait a minute ? Let´s recap:
He said that he is controling the Reapers, and they are his solution but he cannot order them?
This is whole full of negations:
- it means that he cannot control the reapers because they are not his solution...
- or he cannot control reapers because he is not an AI
- so now he is looking for another solution but he need a crucible to do it? than he is VI an not an AI... but it again doesnt make sense. Or better said that it makes sense – because he is just a jammed VI which repeating his cycle whole time.
Otherwise if he cannot order to his solution, than he is again shackled or he just don´t want to...
Catalyst:
A construct. An inteligence designed eons ago to solve a problem.
I was created to bring balance, to be catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.
The question is why his creators created Catalyst? It´s obvious that from what he said that he rebelled against his Creators –
...The evolution of synthetics is going through supass of their organics...
Well, Catalyst rebel agains his creators and achieved that the advancement of his evolution.
...The created will always rebelled against their creators ...
Ah so Creators create you, which should look for bringing a peace between synthetics and organics, but there again
failing your explanation. Why would your creators create an synthetic for looking peace betwen synthetics and organics?
If I want a bring a peace I would try a diplomacy because your hibrids – Reapers are just an abominations.
My own theory is that first Creators which created some kind of synthetics which rebeld against them, so they tried to kill fire with fire and developed another synthetics – Catalyst which won war but there was no more need to keep him alive in the end, he rebelled against his Creators to keep freedom (as did Geths against Quarians). He found universal pattern which he could repeat again and again and achieved so endles source of technology.
The diverse between organics and synthetics is a reason for living:
Organics are limited by their life span so they looking forward to achieve their dreams, desires.
Synthetics are immortal, they have limitless time to achieve their goals so they are not forced to evolving as organics. In fact it looks like Catalyst bring his solution right because of this reason, he didn´t saw evolution through eyes of organics so he decide to harvest civilizations and evolve through harvesting...
Yes it can´t be easily disproof by fact that Reapers are far more advanced than we are but I have again counter:
Than what was point of previous cycles, than only answer is that they want only to profit.
They are leaving whole mass technology after each cylce for others because they desire that the organics and synthetics will walk in path of their tehcnology – to improve Reaper technology.
So you are just an AI ?
In as much as you are just an animal. I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers.
He agreed that he is an AI, it means that he has free will and he can do as he pleased but he cannot order to Reapers? He simple don´t want to help resolve this conflict which he repeated for milion years...
So he is even more not just some kind of AI but he is more like a Reaper kind of consensus – AI which represent whole Reaper society. (conflict in conclusion)
- He said that he is a creator of Reapers and also embodyment ? He can be one or another but neither both of them...
I was first created to oversee the relations between synthetic and organic life... to establish a connection.
But our efforts always ended in conflict, so a new solution was required.
This is very strange part, part which is trying mislead Shepard and justify his acts of genocide.
So he was saying that Reapers have no desire in war and he is controling them, but can´t command them ?
This logic is just wrong - he said that they are his solution but again from other side he can control them and cannot command, it´s like siting in your car on sit of driver but you can´t drive just a look on the speedmeter and from windows... orly ?
Yes there chance that the Crucible opened his shackles but it leads to two conclusions:
- He once rebelled and none could shackle him since first cycle, even he forced his creators into first Reaper form.
- Crucible was a whole time Catalyst´s construction and it has nothing to do with stoping the Reaper threat
Reapers:
Where did the Reapers come from ? Did you created them ?
My creators gave them form, I gave them function. They in turn, give me purpose.
They became the first true Reaper. They did not approved but it was the only solution.
In fact he is saying that he rebeled against his Creators and force them into Reaper form, they did not aproved so they were forced (Leviathan ? / LoL that sound like Control)
I gave them function – explanation is I shackled them and forced them to my will.(next interesting part in control ending) so Reapers are nothing more than just a slaves – tools for Catalyst, but this is in conflict in the fact that Catalyst said that he is embodyment of Reapers...
Organics created synthetics to improve their own existence, but those imrpovements have limits. To exceed those limits synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition suppas their creators.
Again very interesting part is about synthetic evolution – to synthetics sipmle must be allowed to evolve with suppas their creators they will achieve the apex of their evolution. Catalyst was probably first who rebelled agains his
creators, which means that he is truly AI-synthetic.
It is funny when we apply this on quote: salvation through destruction or also destruction is natural motion of evolution itself.
Harbinger said that : We are your salvation through destruction... this is very interesting, in fact he is saying that there is no other options that subdue to Reapers, or you will be forced to,
The result is conflict... You are maybe with in conflict with Reapers, but they are not interested in war.
This smell, very bad ... They have no interest in war? But he is embodyment of Reapers and in fact they are refusing to stop fight.
Justification: When fire burns, is it at war ? Is it in conflict ? Or just doing what was created to do?
Very poor way to justify it, again he is embodyment of reapers which can control them but he cannot to order them ? It´s just violation of basic compulsion logic...
Crucible:
Is little more than a power source. However, in combination with the Citadel and the relays, it is capable of releasing
trenmendous amout of energy throughout the galaxy.
Than what it is ? What does it means ? Is crucible able to do something more without Citadel or it is able to do something else, when you are saying it´s more than power source? If yes than what ?
Who designed it ?
You would not know them, and there is not enough time to explain (5:30)
Ah so we were talking about this stuff for almost 6 minutes and now such a change of mind ? Touchy little bit...
There is only explanation that he doesn´t want to talk about them because he didn´t found a good lie which could help him to justify all those years of genocide – and convince Shepard that YE WE REAPERS GOOD...
We first noted the concept for this device several cycles ago.
It´s crap, why ? He refused to answer who built it ... so why Shepard should believe him in his solution?
He said that you can control Reapers but you can´t command them, but Crucible gave him a chance to change mind, but that means that he was shackled AI very long ago – so even at start when he turns on his Creators there must be
Crucible or something very similiar which was trying to stop Catalyst but it was already too late, or he wasn jammed VI and Crucible is just a relic from first cycle which still survived into next cycle.
Why didn´t you just stop ?
We believed that concept had been eradicated. Clearly, organics are more resourceful than we realized.
Again it´s fail, last cycle his agents must knew about Crucible – he must knew about Crucible ...
The fact that you are standing here, the first organic ever proves it. But also proved that my solution won´t work anymore. We find a new solution.
His solution never worked, he was harvesting organics and synthetics to only one achievment – to your own evolution.
Why are you helping me ?
You have altered the variables.
The Crucible change me, created new possibilities - but I can´t make them happen.
So now he is saying that Crucible change him ? But he is an AI, it´s not just like simple VI which serve to one purpose. Interesting – than you are saying in fact that you are VI...
If you are AI Rewriting of you can´t be possibile because a Reaper code is already part of you so he had no reason to subdue when Reaper army is invincibile as everyone said. Or he is lying and rewriting isn´t possible but that means that Crucible itself is as he said nothing more than big battery..
Control ENDING:
Path throught slavery...
So ilusive man was right after all.
Yes but he could never take control...because we already controlled him
Ah ICE-BERG! TIM in final confrontation was controled by Catalyst, and through TIM could Catalyst control you and your moves for awhile. So it means that Shepard if you like it or not is still fighting with indoctrination.
Your thoughts will continue - we will obey as you see fit:
Again there is conflict, with this ending Shepard in Reaper form agreed that he/she now understand to Reaper´s intentions (like Saren or like TIM ?) he saying about Shepard in second person – so he is no longer Shepard anymore he is just an shacled AI. Great analogy is in picture with geths where he is saying that THERE IS POWER IN CONTROL AND WISDOM IN HARNESSING, STRENGHT OF YOUR ENEMY.
Even despite that Sheppard saved geths or made a peace with geths you are take them for an enemy, and do you know why? Because you let them to upload Reaper code – which means that they will be sooner or later able to oppose.
Synthesis ENDING:
Path throught genocide...
Abomination – I don´t get it you refused us to get a ending with convetional victory where Reapers could be defeated by our assets but you give us a kind of victory through mass genocide which in fact ends in the full of shine and magical dreams like : YEAH WHY NOT ?
It is ideal solution. Now that we know it is possibile, It is inevitable we will reach synthesis.
We have tried a similiar solution in the past. But it has always failed - baceuse that organics were not ready. It is not something what can be forced - you are ready and you may choose it.
So he is saying that synthesis cannot be forced, but he is already forcing me into one of these 3 endings which represent very important and hard decisions. Ideal ? He already said that Organic´s evolution is limited but Synthetic is limitless upon organics, it means that only synthetics will realy profit from his solution.
And there will be peace ?
The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease harvest, and the civilizations preserved their forms will be conected to all of
us.
Connected to who ? To Reapers, why should Shepard or others want that ? If I remember well, sharing of consensus betwen geths and heretics doesn´t look well ... or sharing mind with Thorian ends also very bad ... In this way we could say that he wants rewrite us to his pattern.
Also Legion, Benezia, Shiala, Kenson, Saren, STG salarian, TIM mentioned what means to be under influence of Reapers, for their wishes you will be willing to do anything, If we agreed with synthesis than he rewrote everyone to picture of Reapers.
Syntesis is final evolution of life.
He said that already, but again for who ? For both sides ? I don´t think so ... if yes than he lready did it because Sovereign and Harbringer said it in fact:
-that Reapers are the apex of the evolution... which means that we cannot keep our form – if we want it or not...
Destroy ENDING :
Path through sacrifice...
It is now in your power to destroy us - but be warned you, others will be destroyed aswel - all synthetics will be eliminated.
It´s sound too nice to be true... but with refuse ending he showed true face which means that I can´t imagine how any of these ending R/B/G could be realized, he is still holding all cards. The destroy ending is represented by victory with sacrifice, it´s the path which is trying Catalyst hide in doubts, if you pick you have no safety that you will survive, and soner or later war begins again. The representation of Control and Synthesis is much more colorful, in other words I can even seen how Catalyst slobber over these two paths...
I took that if he is trying to bring a bigger picture which would change our mind and pick from synthesis and control ending.
Refuse ENDING:
Path of no-hope...
SO BE IT!
In fact there is no other choice than 3 which is he forcing us, but he said lot of half-truths and delusions which should lead Shepard to Catalyst´s desired paths. His menu of choices is forced to us, it means that nothing from what´s happened on Citadel is niether real or unreal, because of his words:
They are my solution ... I can control them... but he can´t command them ...
...It also proves my solution won´t work anymore ...
Great so he said that his solution is pointless and if Shepard refuse to choose from his wicked menu than what´s the point of whole conversation ?
When he said this almost on start than what´s the point of further conversation ?
And with refuse Catalyst aka Reaper embodyment walking away and howling SO BE IT! It´s like you refused to his terms than he is going to punish you, you have no other option than subdue.
Mike Gamble said – that next cycle used Crucible anyway and destroyed that Reapers.
Well it´s little bit insulting that Shepard refuse to use Crucible because he saw all these options as kind of abomination but next cycle use it anyway even if Liara warns about that Crucible didn´t work...
Why there is 3 choices ?
Destroy
I think that first Creators bring Citadel and Crucible together to stop Catalyst and his wicked scheme but it failed, At first they built the only one choice – choice of destroy, which represent path of organics fighting against synthetics.
He said that: I am the Catalyst...Citadel is my home...
They used Crucible in past probably just a damaged Catalyst, and shackled him with Citadel.
Control
The conflict betwen Organics and Synthetics ends in first cycle, because Catalyst defeated organics and force them to first Reaper form, but it also bring a Catalyst´s endless taste for power .
Second choice is representing Catalyst which defeated organics and turned them into Reaper, the way to subdue and control.
Synthesis
This part representing the fact that Reapers were gathering technology and knowlendge for Catalyst by force from all organic and synthetic for billion years, but Shepard invaded their patern and was most succesful in his fight against Reaper – he came as first organic into Catalyst´s home at Citadel and bring complete Crucible prepared to use after all these years.
...My solution won´t work anymore...
Catalyst saw a potential in use of Crucible again, from all these cycles he found a first which was strong enough to face his solution, he was affraid that he bring new solution – it was self-preservation.
Puppeteer:
My point is that Catalyst is not just an AI but first Reaper without real physical shell similiar to other Reapers, after what he won against Creators than force his creators to become his solution – it´s slavery nothing more.
His solution is no is not just to stop the conflict but his pattern is to keep technological superiority over others and found a way to harvest all knowlengde.
Indoctrination:
This proces disproving the fact that he ever tried to solve anything peacefuly – when just a simple presence can of Reapers can spoil minds of organic and overwhelm AI´s proces.
Main conflicts:
Perhaps, I control the Reapers - they are my solution .
- I would be fine if this line sound like:
Perhaps, I monitor the cycle. When time comes I am the one who sending a signal to dark space and I am the one who signal the Keepers for opening the Citadel.
So without word control it would change meaning of this whole conversation – and meaning of Catalyst:
- he become shackled AI(Edi SR2) or just a simple VI(AVINA)
- so it would fit to fact of ME1 and Keepers aka sabotaget signal by Protheans.
Main reason why I am still not convicned by Catalyst - he is frequently lying about his intentions - thus IT can be still true or it was meant to be that way ...
After final conversation with TIM was Shepard badly wounded - he/she was trying to use console but her loss of blood and wounds cause that she lost conciosness. Than he/she was lifted to Catalyst´s home and awaken by Catalyst and after little introduction there is words which still whispering in my mind:
[b]...That fact you are standing here, the first organic ever, proves it ...
Shepard didn´t came on his/her own - he/she was dying and now ? Cheers nothing had happened ?
By words of Shepard: I don´t know ...
Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 29 juin 2012 - 07:06 .
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