69 réponses à ce sujet

[Johanna]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

In the vanilla ending I swear they were trying to push his every word as gospel.

In the EC it is obvious that the Catalyst is insane. Basically robot Satan who is convinced he's not.

I prefer it that way. I hope that if we see him again in future DLC, they'll make him even more twisted and frakked up.

[Applepie_Svk]

humes spork wrote...

Said it before, I'll say it again. The Catalyst is not insane, mad, stupid or evil. It just is. It was given a job to do and it did it.

That´s that problem...
As an AI he should look for his own beliefs, path but he was programed to do something which means that he is not an AI like a geths. He is more like very complicated VI or some kind of shackled AI... or simple he is true AI which is lying about his theory of Ya DAWG ...

When Geths start giving questions it was not because they were programed, but because their programing outreach some level and they gain self-control. If they were AI which would stay in path of their programing than after morning war they would be probably 300 years just mining, crafting and expanding their territory through their needs, but they decide to stay out of organics and live separate and they evolve. In this path is Reapers as AI passive, they achieved certain level of technological level which they remeaning for milion of years with no reason, if you believe that this is the top of evolution than what will be next when we reach their level ? It has no sense, that one day there won´t be anything to achieve...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 29 juin 2012 - 04:55 .

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

humes spork wrote...

Said it before, I'll say it again. The Catalyst is not insane, mad, stupid or evil. It just is. It was given a job to do and it did it.

It just happened to lack any belief in the intrinsic value of life, the value of an individual, or respect for self-determination. Nor was it constrained in what methods were acceptable or available to it. That's on the head of whatever created the Catalyst.

I've likened the Catalyst to HAL 9000 before, and for a reason. In 2001, HAL wasn't insane, evil, mad, or stupid. It was simultaneously told to provide Discovery's crew with accurate and complete mission telemetry, and to relay telemetry on the Monolith to Earth without divulging that telemetry to unauthorized personnel. Discovery's crew was not authorized to access Monolith telemetry, which created a conflict because HAL could not provide Discovery's crew accurate and complete mission telemetry without divulging information the crew was not authorized to know.

Since Discovery's crew was not mission-critical, as HAL could complete the mission alone, HAL resolved this conflict by killing Discovery's crew. HAL was never programmed to not kill.

Nice analogy. Yeah, the Catalyst is nothing more than an AI, it thinks and acts just like a machine, and deals in absolutes that end up producing the most hideous and terrible consequences which it imposes mercilessly in the name of "the greater good". It's very much akin to fundamentalist thinking; reducing the complexity and ambiguity of the world and life what it means to crude dogma.

In many ways, the Catalyst strikes me as a "deranged intelligence" in the way that it is an AI, but one that has not been conditioned through "living" the way that EDI has, or even the Geth. It has no respect for anything other than its directive, and acts single mindedly to carry it out.

[Darthmatto]

The Catalyst itself was created by organics and is synthetic.. right?

So by its own admission it will eventually destroy all organic life itself, since the conflict is "inevitable".

Maybe if this was a conversation option Starchild would simply explode due to a logic error?

[Applepie_Svk]

Darthmatto wrote...

The Catalyst itself was created by organics and is synthetic.. right?

So by its own admission it will eventually destroy all organic life itself, since the conflict is "inevitable".

Maybe if this was a conversation option Starchild would simply explode due to a logic error?

No just from organics...

[ashwind]

Sorry OP - with all due respect.

The Catalyst has bad logic - we all agree it does not make sense... however... you are no better.

[Firesaber82]

humes spork wrote...

Said it before, I'll say it again. The Catalyst is not insane, mad, stupid or evil. It just is. It was given a job to do and it did it.

It just happened to lack any belief in the intrinsic value of life, the value of an individual, or respect for self-determination. Nor was it constrained in what methods were acceptable or available to it. That's on the head of whatever created the Catalyst.

I've likened the Catalyst to HAL 9000 before, and for a reason. In 2001, HAL wasn't insane, evil, mad, or stupid. It was simultaneously told to provide Discovery's crew with accurate and complete mission telemetry, and to relay telemetry on the Monolith to Earth without divulging that telemetry to unauthorized personnel. Discovery's crew was not authorized to access Monolith telemetry, which created a conflict because HAL could not provide Discovery's crew accurate and complete mission telemetry without divulging information the crew was not authorized to know.

Since Discovery's crew was not mission-critical, as HAL could complete the mission alone, HAL resolved this conflict by killing Discovery's crew. HAL was never programmed to not kill.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I feel like this concept is blowing far over some people's heads and they are just spewing 'OMG BIOWARE SUX!!!111' 'OMG THE CATALYST SUX!!111' instead of discussing and taking time to wrap their thoughts on this concept.

[Firesaber82]

Darthmatto wrote...

The Catalyst itself was created by organics and is synthetic.. right?

So by its own admission it will eventually destroy all organic life itself, since the conflict is "inevitable".

Maybe if this was a conversation option Starchild would simply explode due to a logic error?

It woulda have been kinda neat actually to get him into a logic loop ala Star Trek (the TOS episode with the androids).

[MissMaster_2]

The Catalyst is a dick.

[GuyIncognito]

Firesaber82 wrote...

Darthmatto wrote...
The Catalyst itself was created by organics and is synthetic.. right?

So by its own admission it will eventually destroy all organic life itself, since the conflict is "inevitable".
Maybe if this was a conversation option Starchild would simply explode due to a logic error?

It woulda have been kinda neat actually to get him into a logic loop ala Star Trek (the TOS episode with the androids).

Funny you mention this, I wrote parody about it merging lines with a scenario in Fallout 1.
http://social.biowar.../index/12865198

[Zero132132]

If you use computers for problem-solving, you've probably run into the strangeness of machine logic before. I'm not an expert, but I know a bit about optimization problems in mathematics (applied math FTW!). Most of the time, it's not that difficult to formulate just what your objective is, and the easiest mistakes to make are in formulating constraints. As an example, if you had a model that perfectly captured how much food we could grow, how to transport it, who to feed, and population growth as a response to this, and we asked a computer to find a way of allocating food that lead to the lowest number of starvations between now and when the sun goes red giant, if you make no constraint prohibiting the extinction of man, the best solution might genuinely be to ship all of the food to antarctica, let everyone alive starve to death immediately, and then have 0 starvations between our extinction and the end of the universe. It's perfectly rational if your only instruction is to minimize the total number of people that starve to death even if the solution is essentially the exact opposite of your intention.

The Catalyst is similar. In the EC, he directly states that he was created to try to oversee relations between synthetics and organics, and to try to find a way to broker peace between them. Generally, with intelligent beings we encounter in our day-to-day lives, we don't think we have to give strange instructions like "don't turn us all into terrifying killbots and begin a cycle of repeated genocide." It's an easy thing to leave out, but to a machine, conversion isn't equal to death, so the Catalyst believes it's been successful in stopping synthetics from killing organics.

That's the creepy thing about the Catalyst. From OUR perspective, the way WE perceive life and it's importance, he's failed completely, in a bat**** crazy way. From his perspective, what he's doing is different than what he was trying to prevent, because in a very, very literal sense, it IS different. It's a difference between machine logic and human logic.

[Firesaber82]

GuyIncognito wrote...

Firesaber82 wrote...

Darthmatto wrote...
The Catalyst itself was created by organics and is synthetic.. right?

So by its own admission it will eventually destroy all organic life itself, since the conflict is "inevitable".
Maybe if this was a conversation option Starchild would simply explode due to a logic error?

It woulda have been kinda neat actually to get him into a logic loop ala Star Trek (the TOS episode with the androids).

Funny you mention this, I wrote parody about it merging lines with a scenario in Fallout 1.
http://social.biowar.../index/12865198

NICE! Yeah that's what I was kinda talking about.  I'm not pissed off that's not possible or anything, just something that woulda been neat since alot of people seem to be missing the analogy to HAL etc (as then there's kinda be an ending near everyone could enjoy)

[v3paR]

I think the Catalyst could be more like immature AI that stoped its learning at some point. Hes just AI-kid. He got his toys (Reapers) and hes playing. His logic is flawed because he never grown up and didn't learn enough to find better solution. He doesn't have mature person perspective to learn from.

Its like giving hammer and nail to a child and telling him what for those are but not telling HOW to use them. He will find a way but not neccesary the right one. And he will be doing it until someone shows him the correct way to use them.

Just a thought.

[Applepie_Svk]

ashwind wrote...

Sorry OP - with all due respect.

The Catalyst has bad logic - we all agree it does not make sense... however... you are no better.

His logic failing because he is bad written or it was meant to be such way.

My logic is failing not because I am trying to counter him with basic compulsion logic or codex entries but because some of my counters are based from part on speculations and assumptions.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 29 juin 2012 - 06:19 .

[Cyricsservant101]

Firesaber82 wrote...

humes spork wrote...

Said it before, I'll say it again. The Catalyst is not insane, mad, stupid or evil. It just is. It was given a job to do and it did it.

It just happened to lack any belief in the intrinsic value of life, the value of an individual, or respect for self-determination. Nor was it constrained in what methods were acceptable or available to it. That's on the head of whatever created the Catalyst.

I've likened the Catalyst to HAL 9000 before, and for a reason. In 2001, HAL wasn't insane, evil, mad, or stupid. It was simultaneously told to provide Discovery's crew with accurate and complete mission telemetry, and to relay telemetry on the Monolith to Earth without divulging that telemetry to unauthorized personnel. Discovery's crew was not authorized to access Monolith telemetry, which created a conflict because HAL could not provide Discovery's crew accurate and complete mission telemetry without divulging information the crew was not authorized to know.

Since Discovery's crew was not mission-critical, as HAL could complete the mission alone, HAL resolved this conflict by killing Discovery's crew. HAL was never programmed to not kill.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I feel like this concept is blowing far over some people's heads and they are just spewing 'OMG BIOWARE SUX!!!111' 'OMG THE CATALYST SUX!!111' instead of discussing and taking time to wrap their thoughts on this concept.

While the Catalyst might not be stupid per se, its solution is almost undeniably stupid.  

The solution's idiotic because it ignores the need for the solution in the first place. 

To illustrate my point, let me provide on example of an analogous solution...

Say a small fishing community decides it needs to get rid of its seagull population.  The seagulls are considered a problem because their main source of food is the community's dwindling crab population, and the crabs are extremely important for the small town's economy.  Without the crabbing industry, the town would dry up overnight.

So what solution does the town come up with?  They decide to kill off the crabs by polluting the water.  Once all crabs are dead, the seagulls have been deprived of their main food source, so they'll be forced to migrate elsewhere. 

The solution is practically guaranteed to solve the problem, but it's extremely ****ing stupid.  Why?  Because it ignores why the seagulls are considered a problem in the first place.  It ignores the underlying objective (i.e. to protect the crab population). 

That's why the Catalyst is so annoying, because its solution is so ****ing stupid. 

Modifié par Cyricsservant101, 29 juin 2012 - 06:48 .

[Hyrist]

"Main reason why I am still not convicned by Catalyst - I am believe that IT can be true:"

No point in reading the rest of your post then.

Modifié par Hyrist, 29 juin 2012 - 06:51 .

[CronoDragoon]

Cyricsservant101 wrote...

The solution is practically guaranteed to solve the problem, but it's extremely ****ing stupid.  Why?  Because it ignores why the seagulls are considered a problem in the first place.  It ignores the underlying objective (i.e. to protect the crab population). 

That's why the Catalyst is so annoying, because its solution is so ****ing stupid. 

Except the Catalyst doesn't believe it's killing off anything. It isn't stupid, it's amoral. It sees no difference between preserving races in Reaper form and preserving them in their natural state. This is not a sound analogy.

[Applepie_Svk]

Hyrist wrote...

"Main reason why I am still not convicned by Catalyst - I am believe that IT can be true:"

No point in reading the rest of your post then.

Bad formulation ... but reason is that he is just lying with every answer thus I am convinced that IT might be still in option or he is simple liar....

Otherwise if you are judging people just by opinion than it´s pretty shame, if you didn´t even read my points...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 29 juin 2012 - 07:08 .

[Mavqt]

ImCommanderShepard wrote...

I agree with this so much. My issue with the endings is the Catalyst.

I never thought the Reapers needed a boss of their own. I'd rather have them stay mysterious. And just pure evil.

WHERE is this chaos the Catalyst is talking about? The only synthetics causing chaos are the Reapers. I doubt any synthetics that are created in the future will be more powerful than the Reapers. So if Shepard who is just one organic can take down 4 of the Catalyst's "solutions", I think organics can face anything. Who asked this little brat to be the savior of the galaxy?

And by uniting the Quarians and Geth, Shepard has shown that there doesn't always have to be a war. There are other possibilities. The Geth never rebelled anyway. They only acted out in self-defense. I blame the Quarians for the war.

The Catalyst is stupid. Wish he didn't exist.

I thought the Reaper "boss" was Harbinger, well up to the getting to the catalyst that is.

Modifié par mavqt, 29 juin 2012 - 10:07 .

[Mavqt]

Fireblader70 wrote...

insomniak9 wrote...

Why does he turn all Reaper-y and get so angry when you choose the one option that lets him win, and prove his cycle actually does work?

This, I can't get my head around.

He's not necessarily angry - he just doesn't need to put on that kid charade anymore. For all we know, that's his real voice, which sounds like a Reaper because he is their 'collective intelligence'. I don't think he says 'SO BE IT!' but rather 'so be it' in a very deep voice.

I always wondered how he got the same looks as the child that Shepard saw dying, it's some IT theory stuff, but I'm not into the IT theory. If you were indoc'ed then why would he give you choices rather then just make you do it himself, or get TIM to do it when he was on the citedel...

But in general, there are still alot of unknowns/plotholes after the EC, but I was satisfied with it.

[Gabylan001]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

N7Gold wrote...

"...My solution won´t work anymore...

Catalyst saw a potential in use of Crucible again, from all these cycles he found a first which was strong enough to face his solution, he was affraid that he bring new solution – it was self-preservation. "


So EDI was right after all... The Reapers are devoted to nothing but self-preservation.

That´s the point - the whole Catalyst explanation has 1 of the 3 answers:
- Bad writting
- IT
- Catalyst lying

Pick yours ... 

In this moment i chose: BAD WRITTING

[Vinion2000]

The new DLC wasnt that bad. I think i see the starchild as a top reaper command and less godlike figure. also the starchild makes much more sense now.

The thing is the starchild uses his existence as justification for his action. Cogito ergo sum , i live there for i am. His "being" comes out of the synthetics and human conflict and his solution will inevitably lead to conflict.

Modifié par Vinion2000, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:54 .

[shodiswe]

A villain doesn't need to make sense... Though if you look at the Catalysts main priorities and don't add any of your own ideals or beliefs then you will see that it's solution makes sense given the parameters.

It's not right since it's due to bad programming and a failed AI persona. But it's doing what it was programmed to belive it was supposed to do. Function 1: Catalyze synthesis and a merging and or understanding between Organics and Synthetics. Each attempt failed, and as you can clearly see it doesn't understand organics.
Function 2: Stop Synthetics and organics from destroying each other.
Since they are fighting the easiest way to stop it is to assume control and stop the fighting.. How do you control chaotic individualistic Organics and stubborn synthetics? You harvest them and build a new reaper that is put under your own direct control to help police the galaxy and maintain the peace.

It's doing what it's made to do, however it wasn't what the creators wanted it to do. They probably thoguht that maintaining the peace and helping to facilitate understanding would be noble goals with a possitive outcome.
They failed to add additional parameters imporant to both Organics and Synthetics.
Neither organics or synthetics wants to be harvested but the catalyst isn't designed to care about the wants of individuals, or the many or even majorities.
The Catalyst will keep the two types of life separate until they have sucessfully synthesized and merged. If theoretically an organic and synthetic specis would merge peacefully and in a symbiotic way on it's own, then it's possible the catalyst would stop the harvesting since it's job has been completed, sythesis has succeded.
The Reaping is a peacekeeping effort caused by lacking parameters from it's creators.

[shodiswe]

This has been asked several times there are several thread with almost the same title.

The catalyst was created to 1: Bring Organics and synthetics together creating understanding and a symbiotic relationship.
2: Maintain the peace while the process was happening.

However no further guidelines were given, therefor it picked the easiest possible solution, If Organics ans synthetics can't live to gether in peace then sppare them by brinning them udner reaper controll and preservign them for the future when there is "true peace".
None of it's parameters took any regard for the wants or wishes of the organics or synthetics that it harvested to create Reapers, because it wasn't part of it's function to care about such things.
This is why it Reaperized it's creators despite their objections.

The Catalyst makes sense in a horrific way, it's reasoning is Logical and monsterous at the same way. Even the geth thinks it's a horrible AI. They want to live they have contemplated the rights of all living beings their experience has taught them the value of life, selfdetermination and freedom. The geths basic understanding was created from experience.
By experiencing opression, injustice, genocide, murder and indifference to individuals or the needs of the many.
The Catalyst has never faced any hardships or been forced to contemplate this concept, it just sends out it's Reapers on the peacekeeping harvest. The Reapers are also under the catalysts strict control, put to sleep between cycles, they arn't truly alive and they arn't truly allowed to have or deveolp a real society. It's possible they are allowed some kind of virtual existance while in between cycles but they are not free. They are impounded and stored until the day when the cycles has come to an end and synthesis has been achived. It makes perfect sense and it has logic. Even though it wasn't the original intentoin of the creators, they faield t ospecify what was important in the quest for this synthesis and their definition of peace and understanding.

Part of the problem is probably that the creators thought that understanding could be forced, it can not. It simply requiers time.