69 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

I see.. my first post did make it there.. it just took a while for it to get registered... thought it got lost in the lag.

[1483749283]

I always thought the reason for the catalysts' actions were NOT that he was trying to solve a specific conflict between a specific set of organics and synthetics... but rather that unchecked, synthetics would eventually wipe out ALL life... i.e. systematically go through the galaxy and burn every planet.

That is, to prevent synthetics from destroying ALL organics, regularly clean the galaxy of every sentient capable of producing such galaxy-wiping synthetics.

[1483749283]

 And yet another way to put it (which I think would have been better and less confusing): organics will eventually (indirectly, through synthetics) grow powerful enough to destroy the galaxy. Therefore prevent them from getting that powerful, while not wiping them out completely, means mowing the lawn every 50k years.

Modifié par Pausanias, 01 juillet 2012 - 07:40 .

[shodiswe]

Pausanias wrote...

 And yet another way to put it (which I think would have been better and less confusing): organics will eventually (indirectly, through synthetics) grow powerful enough to destroy the galaxy. Therefore prevent them from getting that powerful, while not wiping them out completely, means mowing the lawn every 50k years.

Apparently the Catalyst doesn't give a damn about the galaxy, it's maintaining peace why it's waiting for synthesis to happen.

[1483749283]

shodiswe wrote...

Pausanias wrote...

 And yet another way to put it (which I think would have been better and less confusing): organics will eventually (indirectly, through synthetics) grow powerful enough to destroy the galaxy. Therefore prevent them from getting that powerful, while not wiping them out completely, means mowing the lawn every 50k years.

Apparently the Catalyst doesn't give a damn about the galaxy, it's maintaining peace why it's waiting for synthesis to happen.

Synthesis has a flaw in that even "synthganics" can build purely metallic robots. Purely metallic robots can eventually reach AI status. Then the cycle will start again.

[CaFe87]

http://social.biowar.../index/12835700

[Vinion2000]

i think that what we must understand the most is that his existance negated the choices that he gave to shepard. those choices only existed because shepard was there and he could basically take his place at the helm. because the catalyst exist there can never be synthesis because of the cycle of culling. organics will never reach the point where they are ready for synthesis. because he controls the reapers and his solution was the result of his calculations he will not change their actions.finally because he exists and his existance has purpose he will not end himself and his end will not stop the creation of new synthetics. So shepards's presence does make new variables since shepard is the first to reach him.

i do agree that the refusal is way too spiteful but the reason his voice changes is that negotiations have ceased and he no longer needs the phasade of the starchild to interact with shepard. he is also angered by shepard's belief that his meticulous solution is wrong and if we have learnt anything from harbinger and sovereign is that the reapers view us like little ants scurrying in the echos of time. add the fact that he paused his busy schedule for small talk you can see why shepard's refusal pissed off the catalyst to the high heavens. i doubt any war items would have saved us from the catalyst's wrath.

[Galifreya]

Don't get mad- get even; by going to the power source, and taking out the tape decks like a normal space person. Then let the insane computer sing Daisy Bell in slow mo while you sweat buckets into your Fancy Gentleman's Space Helmet.

[Gogzilla]

OP lacks more than one perspective
The POV applied in his logic is not the only way to examine it.

Modifié par Gogzilla, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:16 .

[Total Biscuit]

The catalyst is a machine built for a specific purpose, that it failed at.

Rather than entertain the idea that it was at fault, it came to the conclusion that it was perfect, and thus it's failure was due to inherent faults in everyone else, and started killing everyone.

It's just a failed device, a thing built for a purpose it was was unsuitable for, that was given too much power and not enough failsafes, and wasn't programmed for truly creative or analytical thought.

A more terrifying thought: whoever built the Catalyst were less competent than CERBERUS, who actually managed to create a fully realised, actually living AI that wasn't full of bugs and incapable of reasoning, actual intelligence and true consciousness.

Suddenly, having Leviathan as an ally doesn't seem as appealing...

Modifié par Total Biscuit, 01 juillet 2012 - 08:42 .

[YouAreHorse]

Way i see it, watching 2001:ASO and imagining what would happen if humanity(biological life in me-context) did not manage to "defeat their tools"(transcend might be a better word) is a good illustration of how the reaper-cycle came to be.

Hal 9000 did not make much sense in his ethical understanding of humanity. Neither does a hammer/laptop/piece of software/a handgun etc..

What if Hal 9000 won, big time?

[Memnon]

The Catalyst was created by idiots - these are guys who thought the best way to broker peace between AI and organics was to build an AI. The AI then killed them. If that doesn't trigger red flags with anyone, I'm not sure what would ...

[V-rcingetorix]

Why don't the Reapers kill all synthetics? Yes organics build synthetics, so ancient synthetics kill organics? Why not the problem itself; lesson learned, organics get their hands swatted for playing with toys too sharp for them.

[shadowkinz]

yeah it blows my ****ing mind that the reapers are all about, "kill u so synthetics don't," when WE CLEARLY JUST FORGED PEACE BETWEEN SYNTHETICS AND ORGANICS..

I DON'T GIVE A **** WHO SAYS IT WON'T LAST, LET US TRY DAMMIT. And if not, i'd rather fight geth than some ignorant spacebots

[shadowkinz]

V-rcingetorix wrote...

Why don't the Reapers kill all synthetics? Yes organics build synthetics, so ancient synthetics kill organics? Why not the problem itself; lesson learned, organics get their hands swatted for playing with toys too sharp for them.

They do.. the catalyst used to NOT mention killing synthetics, but now with EC it says they kill organic and synthetic life

Modifié par shadowkinz, 03 juillet 2012 - 04:54 .

[squee365]

Taboo-XX wrote...

He doesn't make sense. That's the point. He's a mad AI.

Ja?

This.

[shadowkinz]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

I was thinking about this since release, but I told myself - wait for EC ... maybe they pull together something which will fix that whole conversation but right now it´s even funniest than before.

When I was watching first playthroughts I was laughting for 20 minutes, since absurd and dramatic explanation of crewmebers evacuated by Normandy until funny endless cycle of jokes from Catalyst

Yeah teh normandy evac was a bit far fetched, but for me that scene was cool b/c liara got her, and she's my LI..

it was a pretty awesome scene.  It just doesn't make sense given the scenario we fight or we die, but i'm sure emotion would take over and he would try to save her.. but with harbinger laying the smack down, it just seems out there that the normandy could just drop in and be like GIMME HER LETS GO

That part i can just accept is hollywood type moments, but all the rest that the OP mentioned is mind blowingly stupid and i agree with him/her

[The Interloper]

squee365 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

He doesn't make sense. That's the point. He's a mad AI.

Ja?

This.

Which just makes the fact that I have no choice but to accept his logic all the worse. All of the endings have the Catalyst's paranoid fears about synthetics (ironic, since he's an AI) being assuaged, despite the story  proving that those fears are hopelessly misplaced. Moreover, the whole "he's insane" idea you so eagerly support by it's very nature accepts that he's completely wrong.

[JamieCOTC]

It's just terrible writing, don't try and figure it out.

[DeathIsHere]

Applepie_Svk wrote...


 


I need to stop the Reapers, do you know how to do that ?
Perhaps, I control the Reapers - they are my solution .

So the Catalyst is one who is controling the reapers, so he should be able to order his solution to stop.
If he is not able to do so than he should a VI or shackled AI (like EDI on Normandy SR2) but he is not shackled, he already proves it – long ago when he rebelled agaisnt his creators which means he has a free will.
These choices which he placed before Shepard are from part very crazy stuff, each of them presenting in some way wicked choice, none of them can end conflict in our favor.


Solution, to what ?
Chaos.Created will always rebel against their Creators - but found a way to stop that from happening - to restore order.

That´s kinda funny when we realize later in conversation, who rebelled against own creators, and force them into first reaper form. Only one who bring a chaos to galaxy is his solution, there was never chaos neither order in the galaxy – it´s a way which it´s work.

Haven't read the rest as I'm about to go to sleep, but I completely disagree with these two statements. I'll make a quick analogy for you: You create a machine (AI, etc) that is designed to kill anything wearing the color pink on sight. The next day, you come home wearing a pink shirt. It kills you. Did it rebel against you? Did it break its programming, proving it has free will? I don't think so. In fact, in the Catalyst's case, I think you're completely wrong. I think the opposite is true, the fact that it destroyed its own creators is proof that it doesn't have free will. It's a shackled AI. Why? Because regardless of what its creators wanted, it did what it was programmed to do: stop chaos. They didn't approve but it didn't stop. It could have, had it been an unshackled AI.

As for the second paragraph, the Catalyst made the motives of it and the reapers clear: to end chaos and prevent the total destruction of all the races. Think about it. The reapers destroy the civilizations but keep everything about them stored. If the reapers weren't there and the "chaos" was actually as bad as they think it is, everything would be destroyed anyway and there would be no traces of the organic life if the synthetics destroy them. That's the premise. Is it perfect? No. Is it right? Again, no. This is why you're trying to stop it. But it makes sense when you look at it from the Catalyst's perspective. It doesn't care if it's right or wrong, all it cares about is getting the job done. Stopping the chaos and keeping organics from wiping themselves out completely.

Modifié par DeathIsHere, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .