151 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Oh and anyone that picks one race over the other... both your Shepards are jerks lol, nothing noble about committing genocide, against either side.

Except Shepard doesn't committ genocide if he sides with the Geth. You fail to realize the persuades aren't always there and that an Admiral (whether Tali or Raan I believe) always asks the Quarians to cease fire. The Quarians effectively kill themselves by not listening. (or rather by chosing to listen to Gerral instead).

If I see a train powering up and my choices are to stop the train (therefore killing everyone in it) or tell you not to jump in front of it. If I tell you not to jump in front of it and don't shove on the ground so you can't or get a arguement for not jumping in front of the train that you acknowledge that doesn't make me responsible for your death. I told you not to jump in front of the damn train. You do it anyway...that's on you.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 08:19 .

[DevilBeast]

Terrorize69 wrote...

beaverskenneth wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Tbh lol IMO to me they resemble the modren day human race, aka mainly my culture/race/background (British) so theres a strong personal attachment for me, also they have a strong sense of patriotism as a race appeals greatly to me, whatever anyone can say about the Quarians, you cannot deny how patriotic they are, more then any other race.

And selfish? How so? They again IMO are the most selfless race, everything they do they do for the future and beenfit of the fleet and their race. Each one putting the needs of the fleet before thier own personal needs.

Ok I know that they choose to go to war with the Geth while the Reapers are attacking the rest of the Galaxy, but in their defence, when has the Galaxy ever treated them as equals? It's strongly hinted (and mentioned in some way) through out ME1 and 2 that the Galaxy view them as a lower class race, not worthy to apply for jobs or live on with other cultures. Why should they rush to the Galaxies aid when the Galaxy has done its best to keep kicking them while they are down?

I love the Quarians because I feel like I can relate to them. I am from the United States, but I strongly identify with them for more than one reason. The strongest being their masks. I know they wear them for physical protection, but since I am bipolar and horribly misunderstood on a regular basis, I wear emotional masks every day. I do this for my own personal emotional protection, as well as the protection of others. I am never myself when interacting with people in person, and even sometimes online. This is obviously a strong resemblance.

Their patriotism I can relate to, as well. Not every Quarian supports the war against the geth, but every single Quarian would lay down their life for the cause. This is because even if they disagree with their government, they love their people. This is how I feel. I am a veteran, and I joined BECAUSE of 911 which occured when I was in grade nine. I knew that I didn't like our government, let alone my commander in chief (Bush) when I was in, but I would have DIED for my country, had I been given no other choice. 

Come to think of it, I would DIE for humanity if let with no other choice. That said, I love you all. 

The bolded part, is what most fail to realise about the Quarians, and it's one of the biggest reasons I love them. The Quarians are like most of the worlds military forces, they will die for they race/country/home regardless of their personal views and beliefs. Alot of Quarians know the War is wrong etc, but they still go to war, not cause they are selfish, they carried out their mission knowing full well what was going to happen. Self-sacrifice... because that was their duty.

Again, I still don´t find that form of blind patriotism that uplifting in anyone. Would you go out and torture or murder someone just because your nation demanded it?? 
I´m Danish, so I do not know how other nationalities might or might not feel about their country, but I would rather lose my nationality than my humanity.

[4stringwizard]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Oh and anyone that picks one race over the other... both your Shepards are jerks lol, nothing noble about committing genocide, against either side.

Except Shepard doesn't committ genocide if he sides with the Geth. You fail to realize the persuades aren't always there and that Shep always asks the Quarians to cease fire. The Quarians effectively kill themselves by not listening.

But Shepard let it happen. Sometimes inaction is morally equivalent to commiting the act.  

[beaverskenneth]

Terrorize69 wrote...

beaverskenneth wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Tbh lol IMO to me they resemble the modren day human race, aka mainly my culture/race/background (British) so theres a strong personal attachment for me, also they have a strong sense of patriotism as a race appeals greatly to me, whatever anyone can say about the Quarians, you cannot deny how patriotic they are, more then any other race.

And selfish? How so? They again IMO are the most selfless race, everything they do they do for the future and beenfit of the fleet and their race. Each one putting the needs of the fleet before thier own personal needs.

Ok I know that they choose to go to war with the Geth while the Reapers are attacking the rest of the Galaxy, but in their defence, when has the Galaxy ever treated them as equals? It's strongly hinted (and mentioned in some way) through out ME1 and 2 that the Galaxy view them as a lower class race, not worthy to apply for jobs or live on with other cultures. Why should they rush to the Galaxies aid when the Galaxy has done its best to keep kicking them while they are down?

I love the Quarians because I feel like I can relate to them. I am from the United States, but I strongly identify with them for more than one reason. The strongest being their masks. I know they wear them for physical protection, but since I am bipolar and horribly misunderstood on a regular basis, I wear emotional masks every day. I do this for my own personal emotional protection, as well as the protection of others. I am never myself when interacting with people in person, and even sometimes online. This is obviously a strong resemblance.

Their patriotism I can relate to, as well. Not every Quarian supports the war against the geth, but every single Quarian would lay down their life for the cause. This is because even if they disagree with their government, they love their people. This is how I feel. I am a veteran, and I joined BECAUSE of 911 which occured when I was in grade nine. I knew that I didn't like our government, let alone my commander in chief (Bush) when I was in, but I would have DIED for my country, had I been given no other choice. 

Come to think of it, I would DIE for humanity if let with no other choice. That said, I love you all. 

The bolded part, is what most fail to realise about the Quarians, and it's one of the biggest reasons I love them. The Quarians are like most of the worlds military forces, they will die for they race/country/home regardless of their personal views and beliefs. Alot of Quarians know the War is wrong etc, but they still go to war, not cause they are selfish, they carried out their mission knowing full well what was going to happen. Self-sacrifice... because that was their duty.

Dorn'Hazt said: "The civillian fleet didn't want this war."  He went to war, anyway. Not only that, but he only had one other person in mind besides the fleet, and it was his son. "And my son, tell him....Tell Jona that his father made it to the homeworld."

This he requested, after requesting that we help Koris and help to rescue the others. He selflessly accepted his own death and worried solely on the others.

[Ryzaki]

4stringwizard wrote...
But Shepard let it happen. Sometimes inaction is morally equivalent to commiting the act.  

Wrong.

The persuasions are not always there. There's nothing Shep can do in this scenario except let the Quarians kill the Geth (which is still genocide of a species that was only trying to defend itself to make it worse) there's no right answer there. The Quarians kill themselves by not listening to Shep (and Tali's) warnings.

That's not my Shep's fault. He didn't "let" it happen. They did it themselves (per my train analogy above). If they're fool enough to jump infront of the train that's not my Shep's problem. He told them not to. They didn't listen? Sucks to be them.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 08:21 .

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Rickets wrote...

Well I dislike Asari, always arrogant. Better?

Yes.

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Oh and anyone that picks one race over the other... both your Shepards are jerks lol, nothing noble about committing genocide, against either side.

Except Shepard doesn't committ genocide if he sides with the Geth. You fail to realize the persuades aren't always there and that Shep always asks the Quarians to cease fire. The Quarians effectively kill themselves by not listening.

If I see a train powering up and my choices are to stop the train (therefore killing everyone in it) or tell you not to jump in front of it. If I tell you not to jump in front of it and don't shove on the ground so you can't or get a arguement for not jumping in front of the train that you acknowledge that doesn't make me responsible for your death. I told you not to jump in front of the damn train. You do it anyway...that's on you.

Who ever Shepard sides with, indirectly causes the genocide of a race, the decision and fate rests in her or her hands. It's as plain as that lol, theres no rationalizing it. Says "oops" or "well I personally didn't fire the gun" doesn't lessen the act.

Genocide is Genocide.

If your Shepard can't managed to convince a fleet to stop firing for a few secs then your Shepard stands no chance at commanding an entire Galaxy to die for you. Seems, silly.

Luckily for me although I always get peace between them, I wouldn't choice between either race. Trying to justify Genocide is, just wrong.

[4stringwizard]

Ryzaki wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
But Shepard let it happen. Sometimes inaction is morally equivalent to commiting the act.  

Wrong.

The persuasions are not always there. There's nothing Shep can do in this scenario except let the Quarians kill the Geth (which is still genocide of a species that was only trying to defend itself to make it worse) there's no right answer there. The Quarians kill themselves by not listening to Shep (and Tali's) warnings.

That's not my Shep's fault. He didn't "let" it happen. They did it themselves (per my train analogy above). If they're fool enough to jump infront of the train that's not my Shep's problem. He told them not to. They didn't listen? Sucks to be them.

If the option's not there, Shepard still does nothing.  So basically you had a hand in it, too.  And in your mind, it's okay to wipe out a whole race and save machines that aren't alive because "you told 'dem you wouldn't do it if you was 'dem!!"

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Who ever Shepard sides with, indirectly causes the genocide of a race, the decision and fate rests in her or her hands. It's as plain as that lol, theres no rationalizing it. Says "oops" or "well I personally didn't fire the gun" doesn't lessen the act.

Genocide is Genocide.

If your Shepard can't managed to convince a fleet to stop firing for a few secs then your Shepard stands no chance at commanding an entire Galaxy to die for you. Seems, silly.

Luckily for me although I always get peace between them, I wouldn't choice between either race. Trying to justify Genocide is, just wrong.

Oh for pete's sake no it's not. You want to pretend Shep killed the Quarians? Go ahead. Doesn't change the fact that they killed themselves. They were explicitly warned to stop attacking the Geth. They didn't. That's their fault. Callling it genocide when it's the backlash from them continuing to attempt to eradicate another species is laughable.

And it's a good thing my Shep leaves that to Hackett and Anderson then isn't it? He's a inspiration figure nothing more. He's there to rally the troops. Not to mention he gets the rest of the galaxy on his side quite easily.

4stringwizard wrote...
If the option's not there, Shepard still does nothing.  So basically you had a hand in it, too.  And in your mind, it's okay to wipe out a whole race and save machines that aren't alive because "you told 'dem you wouldn't do it if you was 'dem!!"

Shepard does attempt to talk them out of it it doesn't work. He tried. He failed. The lack of a magical blue persuade doesn't mean he didn't tell them to stop. Just that it didn't take. That's not his fault.

As for your last sentence yup. If I tell you to stop attacking and you don't? Not my fault not my problem what results since you decided not to listen. Shep told them to stop. It's not his responsibility since they didn't. They made their choice. Their choice ends up killing them. Sucks to be them!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 08:30 .

[Terrorize69]

DevilBeast wrote...

Again, I still don´t find that form of blind patriotism that uplifting in anyone. Would you go out and torture or murder someone just because your nation demanded it?? 
I´m Danish, so I do not know how other nationalities might or might not feel about their country, but I would rather lose my nationality than my humanity.

Bit of a difference between dying for your race/country and commiting war crimes in your countrys name lol. Following orders knowing that there's a high chance your being sent to your death wouldn't cause anyone to lose their humanity.

Theres a difference between Patriotism and Extremist.

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Who ever Shepard sides with, indirectly causes the genocide of a race, the decision and fate rests in her or her hands. It's as plain as that lol, theres no rationalizing it. Says "oops" or "well I personally didn't fire the gun" doesn't lessen the act.

Genocide is Genocide.

If your Shepard can't managed to convince a fleet to stop firing for a few secs then your Shepard stands no chance at commanding an entire Galaxy to die for you. Seems, silly.

Luckily for me although I always get peace between them, I wouldn't choice between either race. Trying to justify Genocide is, just wrong.

Oh for pete's sake no it's not. You want to pretend I killed the Quarians? Go ahead. Doesn't change the fact that they killed themselves. They were explicitly warned to stop attacking the Geth. They didn't. That's their fault. Callling it genocide when it's the backlash from them continuing to attempt to eradicate another species is laughable.

You want to pretend you didn't kill the Quarians? Go ahead.

How many acts of noble genocide you commit in your game is solely down to your judgement, not mine. I won't criticize you or tell you the diffence between good and evil and all that lol.

[4stringwizard]

Ryzaki wrote...

Shepard does attempt to talk them out of it it doesn't work. He tried. He failed. The lack of a magical blue persuade doesn't mean he didn't tell them to stop. Just that it didn't take. That's not his fault.

Sounds like blind denial to me. 

As for your last sentence yup. If I tell you to stop attacking and you don't? Not my fault not my problem what results since you decided not to listen. Shep told them to stop. It's not his responsibility since they didn't. They made their choice. Their choice ends up killing them. Sucks to be them!

Why should the Quarians have stopped?  It was their chance to end the war.  The only Geth they ever knew were the ones that tried to kill them.  The Geth never attempted peace, AND they sided with the Reapers to boot.  I can understand why they kept attacking. 

But letting a whole race die is okay for you, because it "sucks to be them!".  Whew, glad you aren't in any office of power.  

[Ryzaki]

4stringwizard wrote...

Sounds like blind denial to me.

I know! You're very in denial.

Why should the Quarians have stopped?  It was their chance to end the war.  The only Geth they ever knew were the ones that tried to kill them.  The Geth never attempted peace, AND they sided with the Reapers to boot.  I can understand why they kept attacking. 

But letting a whole race die is okay for you, because it "sucks to be them!".  Whew, glad you aren't in any office of power.  

Because they were told by one of their admirals to. Clearly she has a reason for this. As for the Geth they started the war (Quarians) they attacked the Geth when the Geth were minding their own business. They are no innocents in this scenario. They are the aggressors. Their aggression gets them killed. Hell yeah that's not my problem. My Shep was there for a fleet. The Geth fleet will work as well as the Quarian fleet. It'd be nice to have them both but that's simply not available to him.

And yup letting a race die when that's what they decided to do rather than stop attacking sure.

Terrorize69 wrote...

You want to pretend you didn't kill the Quarians? Go ahead.

How many acts of noble genocide you commit in your game is solely down to your judgement, not mine. I won't criticize you or tell you the diffence between good and evil and all that lol.

You keep on honking that "Shep killed the Quarians" tune. Doesn't make it anymore true.

Noble genocide? First tis not genocide twas self defense. If the Quarians hadn't been utter warmongering idiots and placed weapons on their civilian ships their civilians wouldn't have been fired on during that last scene. The Geth acted in self defense. Shepard didn't even fire a single shot on the Quarians if you want to get technical. Second as for good and evil moral realitivity is all I have to say to that. I'd say siding with the Quarians is far more evil than siding with the Geth could ever be. But that's my morals. Yours maybe different. *shrugs*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 08:41 .

[DevilBeast]

4stringwizard wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
Yes, willingly sacrificing a whole race for machines that aren't alive AND sided with the Reapers.  Twice.  How very noble of you. 

In your opinion. As far as my Shep's concerned them and EDI are alive. As for siding with the Reapers first off only part of them sided with the Reapers once and the second time they sided with the reapers rather than be wiped out by the Quarians that are currently attacking them. Submission was preferable to extinction.

So nope...not feeling any guilt for siding with them. They were the on the defensive in this scenario. Quarians just learned the hard way when you corner a dog attempting to kill him he'll rip out your throat if he has to survive.

So yes saving the Geth was indeed very noble of my Shep thanks. 

Actually, it was a moot point whether or not they were alive at first.  After the EC though, it's indirectly stated that the Geth/EDI were never truly alive until "synthesis" happened.  The same Geth who decided to side with the Reapers when they didn't actually have to.  Of course, it goes to show you that the Geth, when backed into a corner, will do anything to save their hides (even if it means siding with the greatest galactic threat ever known).  Yep, that makes them really trustworthy. 

As far as "defensive", it's not being defensive when you commit genocide against the attackers, which is exactly what the Geth and Shepard do when siding against the Quarians.  Yes, Shepard had a hand in it too.  Sometimes inaction is the same as committing the act yourself. 

Don't feel bad though.  There are no dumb opinions, just dumb people.  

Hmmm.. That is if you value life or sentience. Personally I value sentience more than life. F.ex: a bacteria is alive but not sentient, while the Geth are sentient but not (at least according to our current definitions of life) alive, but I would never choose a bacteria over a Geth.

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...
You keep on honking that "Shep killed the Quarians" tune. Doesn't make it anymore true.

Noble genocide? First tis not genocide. The Geth acted in self defense. Shepard didn't even fire a single shot on the Quarians if you want to get technical. Second as for good and evil moral realitivity is all I have to say to that. I'd say siding with the Quarians is far more evil than siding with the Geth could ever be. But that's my morals. Yours maybe different. *shrugs*

Correction: That's your tune "Genocide". My tune honks "Peace".

Your actions, no matter how indirectly, led to the Genocide of a race when you held the power and choice to chance it. Genocide is Genocide.

You seem to forget, without Shepard and Legions help, the Geth would still be under Reaper control. Just a reminder. So Quarians were fighting the pawns of a race wiping out the Galaxy, just cause they can. So evil of those Quarians to do that! xD

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Correction: That's your tune "Genocide". My tune honks "Peace".

Your actions, no matter how indirectly, led to the Genocide of a race when you held the power and choice to chance it. Genocide is Genocide.

You seem to forget, without Shepard and Legions help, the Geth would still be under Reaper control. Just a reminder. So Quarians were fighting the pawns of a race wiping out the Galaxy, just cause they can. So evil of those Quarians to do that! xD

Nope. Mine simply is siding with the victims.

And nope self defense is not genocide no matter how much you claim it is.

Yeah and the only reason the Geth ran to the Reapers is because the Quarians were trying to wipe them out. They started the whole mess. The Quarians then realizing they bit off more than can chew get Shep's help. Only to try to blow him up along with the Geth flagship (what nice allies. My Shep should totally be willing to stick his neck out for them after that treatement!) so yeah. Quarians made the mess to begin with. So why exactly is my Shep thankful again? Not only have they made the Geth an unnecessary enemy they also attempted to have him be an unfortuante casualty when he was trying to help them. Yeah. Sorry if my Shep doesn't give a damn if their warmongering blows up in their face.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 08:47 .

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Correction: That's your tune "Genocide". My tune honks "Peace".

Your actions, no matter how indirectly, led to the Genocide of a race when you held the power and choice to chance it. Genocide is Genocide.

You seem to forget, without Shepard and Legions help, the Geth would still be under Reaper control. Just a reminder. So Quarians were fighting the pawns of a race wiping out the Galaxy, just cause they can. So evil of those Quarians to do that! xD

Nope. Mine simply is siding with the victims.

And nope self defense is not genocide no matter how much you claim it is.

Yeah and the only reason the Geth ran to the Reapers is because the Quarians were trying to wipe them out. They started the whole mess.

Ok i'll put this another way, did you decide to not stop Legion?

[DevilBeast]

Terrorize69 wrote...

DevilBeast wrote...

Again, I still don´t find that form of blind patriotism that uplifting in anyone. Would you go out and torture or murder someone just because your nation demanded it?? 
I´m Danish, so I do not know how other nationalities might or might not feel about their country, but I would rather lose my nationality than my humanity.

Bit of a difference between dying for your race/country and commiting war crimes in your countrys name lol. Following orders knowing that there's a high chance your being sent to your death wouldn't cause anyone to lose their humanity.

Theres a difference between Patriotism and Extremist.

Well, when a soldier participate in a war, he is most likely not only willing to die for his country but also willing to kill for it.
It always puzzles me why everyone say they want to die for their country but not killing for it, eventhough that is basically what you do when you wage war.

[BadExamp1e]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Correction: That's your tune "Genocide". My tune honks "Peace".

Your actions, no matter how indirectly, led to the Genocide of a race when you held the power and choice to chance it. Genocide is Genocide.

You seem to forget, without Shepard and Legions help, the Geth would still be under Reaper control. Just a reminder. So Quarians were fighting the pawns of a race wiping out the Galaxy, just cause they can. So evil of those Quarians to do that! xD

Nope. Mine simply is siding with the victims.

And nope self defense is not genocide no matter how much you claim it is.

Yeah and the only reason the Geth ran to the Reapers is because the Quarians were trying to wipe them out. They started the whole mess.

Ok i'll put this another way, did you decide to not stop Legion?

Why? Legion's not the one pushing for war.

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Ok i'll put this another way, did you decide to not stop Legion?

Nope. Stopping the Geth from uploading the code would've allowed the Quarians to wipe them out since Gerrall was INSISTENT on attacking them while they were vulnerable. This is also a choice that Shep always has available. (unlike the persuades). That's the clear genocide you keep claiming Shep had with the Quarians. Shep does not tell Gerral to stop firing if he/she stops Legion from uploading the code (like he/she attempts to have Tali do with siding with the Geth).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 08:52 .

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Ok i'll put this another way, did you decide to not stop Legion?

Nope. Stopping the Geth from uploading the code would've allowed the Quarians to wipe them out. This is also a choice that Shep always has available. (unlike the persuades).

So you made the choice to indirectly cause the Genocide of a race.

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
So you made the choice to indirectly cause the Genocide of a race.

No they killed themselves by continuing to fire when being told to stop. Shep knew the Geth would fire in self defense yes. That's why he/she tells the Quarians to stop firing that's their warning. That's what stops Shep from being culpable for their deaths (I don't know why I'm saying genocide. It's a self defense kill). They don't take the warning (and their chance to live). thus they killed themselves.

Shep told them not to jump infront of the train. They did so anyway. Not his fault. Especially when not jumping infront of the train attempts to kill those inside the train and forcing the train to stop results in their deaths.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 08:56 .

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
So you made the choice to indirectly cause the Genocide of a race.

No they killed themselves by continuing to fire when being told to stop. Shep knew the Geth would fire in self defense yes. That's why he/she tells the Quarians to stop firing that's their warning. That's what stops Shep from being culpable for their deaths (I don't know why I'm saying genocide. It's a self defense kill). They don't take the warning (and their chance to live). thus they killed themselves.

You picked one race over another, one race got wiped out. Brought to extinction. You choice indirectly cause that exitnction. Aka Genocide.

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
You picked one race over another, one race got wiped out. Brought to extinction. You choice indirectly cause that exitnction. Aka Genocide.

Again no. The Quarians decided not to stop firing after being warned. Their own choice lead to their extinction. Thus not genocide. It's self defense on the part of the Geth. It's not Shep's responsibility to protect the Quarians from their warmongering especially not to let the Geth die for them when all they have to do is stop attacking enemies that aren't (at that moment) attacking them.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 08:58 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Oh cool! Are we having another character bash fest? It's just like the pre-ME3 times all over again, hurray!

Modifié par Mr.BlazenGlazen, 29 juin 2012 - 09:00 .