151 réponses à ce sujet

[DevilBeast]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

Oh cool! Are we having another character bash fest? It's just like the pre-ME3 times all over again, hurray!

I don´t think they are bashing characters per se. More races/species:?

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
You picked one race over another, one race got wiped out. Brought to extinction. You choice indirectly cause that exitnction. Aka Genocide.

Again no. The Quarians decided not to stop firing after being warned. Their own choice lead to their extinction. Thus not genocide. It's self defense on the part of the Geth. It's not Shep's responsibility to protect the Quarians from their warmongering.

Ok going to put this in a different scenario cause you seem to be missing my point.

You have a gun and you're in a room with a guy holding a remote bomb detonator. A group of people walk into another room where the boom is. The guy with the remote says he will count to 10 then blow that bomb. You warn the people over a phone or w/e, what will happen. They remain there. You still have a gun, you have the choice to stop the guy with the remote or let him blow it.

He blows it and kills everyone in the room.

Now, did you indrectly contribute to their deaths? You warned them and they did not listen. But you also had the choice to stop it yourself and you didn't.


I'm going to make this clear, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with your choice, nor am I telling you it's wrong etc. Only trying to point out the if you like it or not, you contributed to their deaths/extinction by not doing anything, or not doing all in your power.

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Ok going to put this in a different scenario cause you seem to be missing my point.

You have a gun and you're in a room with a guy holding a remote bomb detonator. A group of people walk into another room where the boom is. The guy with the remote says he will count to 10 then blow that bomb. You warn the people over a phone or w/e, what will happen. They remain there. You still have a gun, you have the choice to stop the guy with the remote or let him blow it.

He blows it and kills everyone in the room.

Now, did you indrectly contribute to their deaths? You warned them and they did not listen. But you also had the choice to stop it yourself and you didn't.


I'm going to make this clear, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with your choice, nor am I telling you it's wrong etc. Only trying to point out the if you like it or not, you contributed to their deaths/extinction by not doing anything, or not doing all in your power.

First...your analogy is utter fail. The Geth's upgrades only threaten the Quarians if they chose to continue attacking. Not if they merely stay there. And honestly if someone tells you to leave in 10 seconds or get shot and you stay there and you're not frozen in fear? Uh...Darwin Award say hello. Second the analogy would be more close to...

Two guys were fighting while you watch them fight from a hilltop. The first guy momentarily stops and falls stunned and grabs something in his coat, second guys sees this as an immense advantage so starts wailing on second guy harder to kill him, you tell the second guy to stop wailing on him, sure you have a gun and can shoot the first guy but first guy will not use the gun if second guy stops wailing on him. So there's no reason to kill and murder first guy if second guy would stop attacking! Second guy continues hitting first guy and first guy after regaining his senses blows second guy away.

I'm not responsible for first guy being a moron. At all. I told him to stop. You keep wailing on someone who's not fighting you back after you started the fight with them in the first place and you deserve whatever you get.

Actually Shep can only stop it by talking and if the guy isn't willing to listen...he's not willing to listen. I warned him. He ignored said warnings. Especially when they could've stopped it themselves by ceasing their attacks.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 09:19 .

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...
First...your analogy is utter fail.

Then you clearly missed the entire point, which would mean responding to the rest of your post would be utterly pointless seeing as clearly your not understanding what I'm getting at.

I guess I'm just lucky, my Shepards arn't forced between picking which race should go exinct. Wouldn't have to decide to have all the children slaughtered cause one fool in charge was blinded by victory.

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
First...your analogy is utter fail.

Then you clearly missed the entire point, which would mean responding to the rest of your post would be utterly pointless seeing as clearly your not understanding what I'm getting at.

I guess I'm just lucky, my Shepards arn't forced between picking which race should go exinct. Wouldn't have to decide to have all the children slaughtered cause one fool in charge was blinded by victory.

And you clearly missed the Rannoch point if you actually believe your analogy was a good one. The Quarians aren't even remotely innocent passive civilians in this scenario.

Good thing that wasn't my Shep's decision. But yes good for you.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 09:24 .

[4stringwizard]

Ryzaki wrote...

Because they were told by one of their admirals to. Clearly she has a reason for this. As for the Geth they started the war (Quarians) they attacked the Geth when the Geth were minding their own business. They are no innocents in this scenario. They are the aggressors. Their aggression gets them killed. Hell yeah that's not my problem. My Shep was there for a fleet. The Geth fleet will work as well as the Quarian fleet. It'd be nice to have them both but that's simply not available to him.

Noble genocide? First tis not genocide twas self defense. If the Quarians hadn't been utter warmongering idiots and placed weapons on their civilian ships their civilians wouldn't have been fired on during that last scene. The Geth acted in self defense. Shepard didn't even fire a single shot on the Quarians if you want to get technical. Second as for good and evil moral realitivity is all I have to say to that. I'd say siding with the Quarians is far more evil than siding with the Geth could ever be. But that's my morals. Yours maybe different. *shrugs*

No, genocide is genocide.  It doesn't matter who fired the first shot.  Even someone like you should be able to figure that out. 

Secondly, "moral relativism" is nothing more than an excuse to justify evil acts.  And the fact that you'd be willing to blindly wipe out an entire living race, and then *shrug* about it, shows how skewed your morals are.  

[Ryzaki]

4stringwizard wrote...
No, genocide is genocide.  It doesn't matter who fired the first shot.  Even someone like you should be able to figure that out. 

Secondly, "moral relativism" is nothing more than an excuse to justify evil acts.  And the fact that you'd be willing to blindly wipe out an entire living race, and then *shrug* about it, shows how skewed your morals are.  

Self defense isn't genocide. The Quarians made their civilians targets once they decided to have guns on those ships and fire them at the Geth. Even someone like you should be able to figure that out. Y

Ooh is it that time to judge people's RL morals based of what they do in a video game? Oh yes I needed to hear more pretenious and frankly idiotic armchair philosophy today. *listens attentively* by all means continue! For the record I hope you don't pick any of the end game endings. Because all of them have skewered morals! But do continue with the moral high horse!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 09:30 .

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
First...your analogy is utter fail.

Then you clearly missed the entire point, which would mean responding to the rest of your post would be utterly pointless seeing as clearly your not understanding what I'm getting at.

I guess I'm just lucky, my Shepards arn't forced between picking which race should go exinct. Wouldn't have to decide to have all the children slaughtered cause one fool in charge was blinded by victory.

And you clearly missed the Rannoch point if you actually believe your analogy was a good one. The Quarians aren't even remotely innocent passive civilians in this scenario.

Good thing that wasn't my Shep's decision. But yes good for you.

That bolded part.. now I have to ask, did you play with auto-dialogue or something? Cause that is farest thing from the truth. If you had paied attention you'd have learnt how the "civilans" etc and hell most of the people felt about it.

Just like in RL, if your Government decides to go to war, theres little to nothing you can do to change their mind. So if your country decided to wage war on someone tomorrow, should I blame you no matter how hard you had protested against it?

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
That bolded part.. now I have to ask, did you play with auto-dialogue or something? Cause that is farest thing from the truth. If you had paied attention you'd have learnt how the "civilans" etc and hell most of the people felt about it.

Just like in RL, if your Government decides to go to war, theres little to nothing you can do to change their mind. So if your country decided to wage war on someone tomorrow, should I blame you no matter how hard you had protested against it?

The Civilian fleet went along with it and they are also attacking the geth. It doesn't matter how much they dislike it. They are opening fire. They are attacking. They are not unarmed innocent civilians like those in your example. As for most people felt about it. 3 out of 4 admirals supported it. If there was enough who didn't support it it begs the question why there wasn't a split in the fleet. Probably because no matter what they said they still were willing to fight.

If I was in combat opening fire on the other country? Yup. I'd expect you to shoot me in the face too if I was trying to kill you I'd do the same to you. You don't put guns on your kid's schoolbus and then cry when someone blows it up.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 09:35 .

[4stringwizard]

Ryzaki wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...
No, genocide is genocide.  It doesn't matter who fired the first shot.  Even someone like you should be able to figure that out. 

Secondly, "moral relativism" is nothing more than an excuse to justify evil acts.  And the fact that you'd be willing to blindly wipe out an entire living race, and then *shrug* about it, shows how skewed your morals are.  

Self defense isn't genocide. The Quarians made their civilians targets once they decided to have guns on those ships and fire them at the Geth. Even someone like you should be able to figure that out.

Ooh is it that time to judge people's RL morals based of what they do in a video game? Oh yes I needed to hear more pretenious and frankly idiotic armchair philosophy today. *listens attentively* by all means continue! For the record I hope you don't pick any of the end game endings. Because all  of them have skewered morals! But do continue with the moral high horse!

Again....wiping out an entire race IS genocide, which is exactly what the Geth do (and Shepard lets happen).  Here, I'll even include a definition for you in case you need to be reminded:

genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Hmm, looks like it doesn't say "except if in self defense" after all!  But you're right, genocide isn't self defense.  The Geth were committing genocide.  It stopped being self defense when the Geth decided to wipe out the entire Quarian flotilla. 

You're justifying your in-game actions using real life morals.  I can only assume you'd do the same in real life because that's how you think.  And your posts show you'd be fine wiping out an entire race because in your mind they deserve it.  Wiping out a race to save machines who, by the way, sided with the greatest enemy in the galaxy. 

[Ryzaki]

4stringwizard wrote...

Again....wiping out an entire race IS genocide, which is exactly what the Geth do (and Shepard lets happen).  Here, I'll even include a definition for you in case you need to be reminded:

genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Hmm, looks like it doesn't say "except if in self defense" after all!  But you're right, genocide isn't self defense.  The Geth were committing genocide.  It stopped being self defense when the Geth decided to wipe out the entire Quarian flotilla.

How about you try looking at the news then. Someone's currently fighting charges of genocide by arguing self defense.

Also this:

Article 31(1)© of the Rome Statute expressly codifies the
admissibility of self-defense in the event of the crime of genocide
and crimes against humanity, as well as in the case of war crimes,
if the defensive act is done to defend property that is essential
for survival or property that is essential for accomplishing a
military mission. However, defense of property is not admissible
with respect to a charge of genocide or crimes against
humanity.

Nope it started being self defense when the Quarians didn't stop firing. If the quarians HAD stopped firing and the geth attacked anyway? That would be genocide. That's not what happened. The Geth attacked the Quarians with the intention of defending themselves. Wiping out the Quarians was secondary and wouldn't have occured if the Quarians had stopped attacking.

You're justifying your in-game actions using real life morals.  I can only assume you'd do the same in real life because that's how you think.  And your posts show you'd be fine wiping out an entire race because in your mind they deserve it.  Wiping out a race to save machines who, by the way, sided with the greatest enemy in the galaxy.

In a game. That doesn't make it my real life morals. For the record said machines only sided with the Reapers to stop themselves from being exterminated after being blindsided in an attack when they were minding their own business by those warmongering Quarians who decided a Reaper war was a good time to start a fight. I wouldn't be surprised if humanity would take a similar deal if they thought they had a submit or die choice. The heretics sided with the reapers sure but that was 5% of the Geth. And they've been delt with by the time of ME3.

So nope still not genocide.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 09:45 .

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
That bolded part.. now I have to ask, did you play with auto-dialogue or something? Cause that is farest thing from the truth. If you had paied attention you'd have learnt how the "civilans" etc and hell most of the people felt about it.

Just like in RL, if your Government decides to go to war, theres little to nothing you can do to change their mind. So if your country decided to wage war on someone tomorrow, should I blame you no matter how hard you had protested against it?

The Civilian fleet went along with it and they are also attacking the geth. It doesn't matter how much they dislike it. They are opening fire. They are attacking. They are not unarmed innocent civilians like those in your example. As for most people felt about it. 3 out of 4 admirals supported it. If there was enough who didn't support it it begs the question why there wasn't a split in the fleet. Probably because no matter what they said they still were willing to fight.

If I was in combat opening fire on the other country? Yup. I'd expect you to shoot me in the face too if I was trying to kill you I'd do the same to you. You don't put guns on your kid's schoolbus and then cry when someone blows it up.

Oh yeah cause you know, a Civilan fleet would totally go away on its own into the Galaxy... they'd get massacred.. Civvy fleets being commanded by the Military. Cause all those children and old Quarians are totally going to munity against marines. So yes, they are unarmed. They carry their homes with them, they have no choice but to join in.

Your question about why wasn't there a split in the fleet... is answered a few times in the game..

Your talking as if the Quarian people had a choice, they did not. Just like you don't have a choice but to follow the laws etc of your country.

If a law came about tomorrow that said "You have to fight for your country, go and fight this country now. If you do not, you'll be exiled, split up from your family and sent to the other side of the world."

Yeah, hmm I wonder what most people would pick.

[4stringwizard]

Ryzaki wrote...


How about you try looking at the news then. Someone's currently fighting charges of genocide by arguing self defense.

Nope it started being self defense when the Quarians didn't stop firing. If the quarians HAD stopped firing and the geth attacked anyway? That would be genocide. That's not what happened. The Geth attacked the Quarians with the intention of defending themselves. Wiping out the Quarians was secondary and wouldn't have occured if the Quarians had stopped attacking.

-------


In a game. That doesn't make it my real life morals. For the record said machines only sided with the Reapers to stop themselves from being exterminated after being blindsided in an attack when they were minding their own business by those warmongering Quarians who decided a Reaper war was a good time to start a fight. I wouldn't be surprised if humanity would take a similar deal if they thought they had a submit or die choice. The heretics sided with the reapers sure but that was 5% of the Geth. And they've been delt with by the time of ME3.

So nope still not genocide.

Yes.  And the Geth finished the fight by wiping out the entire Quarian race.  Hence genocide.  Which Shepard allows.

You're right.  The Geth decided submission, and siding with Shepard's enemy, was better than extinction.  Which is exactly what Saren wanted.   Which is exactly what Shepard was against the whole series.  They willingly sided with a race that they knew was out to exterminate all major organic races in the galaxy.  Had Shepard not intervened, their actions would have made the Reapers even stronger.  That is far more evil than anything the Quarians did.  

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Oh yeah cause you know, a Civilan fleet would totally go away on its own into the Galaxy... they'd get massacred.. Civvy fleets being commanded by the Military. Cause all those children and old Quarians are totally going to munity against marines. So yes, they are unarmed. They carry their homes with them, they have no choice but to join in.

Your question about why wasn't there a split in the fleet... is answered a few times in the game..

Your talking as if the Quarian people had a choice, they did not. Just like you don't have a choice but to follow the laws etc of your country.

If a law came about tomorrow that said "You have to fight for your country, go and fight this country now. If you do not, you'll be exiled, split up from your family and sent to the other side of the world."

Yeah, hmm I wonder what most people would pick.

A fully armed civilian fleet would get massacred? Say what? THERE WAS THANNIX CANNONS ON THE LIVESHIPS. Unarmed my ass. Also Quarians have such a small population that the military fleet wouldn't even dream of letting the civilians leave especially unarmed. They'd have to cop to their demands if the majority of them was against the war. That wasn't the case. Remember Quarians have no jails, and exile is rare they don't even have a death penalty because their population needs to be strictly balanced and the lack the resources for that. If a significant amount of the population wants something and threatens to leave if they don't get it the threat alone is enough to force change.

Just tells me that not enough Quarians didn't want the war. 3 out of 4 admirals are pro it (even Raan and Tali go along with it.) Koris is the only admiral that openly opposes the war. Tali hided behind the "I can't go against the other admirals openly!" excuse. Raan just wants to have her home back but she too is pro the war.

Yes they did. You always have a choice. Might not be a fair choice but you always have a choice. They decided to go along with it. They let the military fleet put guns on their children's homes they have no right to act surprised or horrified when after their children are firing on someone else's home they blow it up.

I already argued that hypotical. The Quarians are not going to tell a signifcant amount of the population to GTFO. They can't afford it. That's stated multiple times in game. It's part of the reason Shep's rally the crowd works to not get Tali exiled. The second people start threatening to leave over it the admirals quickly placate them.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 09:56 .

[Ryzaki]

4stringwizard wrote...

Yes.  And the Geth finished the fight by wiping out the entire Quarian race.  Hence genocide.  Which Shepard allows.

You're right.  The Geth decided submission, and siding with Shepard's enemy, was better than extinction.  Which is exactly what Saren wanted.   Which is exactly what Shepard was against the whole series.  They willingly sided with a race that they knew was out to exterminate all major organic races in the galaxy.  Had Shepard not intervened, their actions would have made the Reapers even stronger.  That is far more evil than anything the Quarians did.  

In self defense which isn't genocide. That the Quarians allow by continuing to fire after being told to stop. Why should Shep have to kill someone to stop someone else from attacking them? Where's the logic in that? Shep can't physically force the Quarian fleet to stop.

And if the Quarians had never attacked them in the first place they never would've sided with the Reapers in fear of their very existence and the whole incident could've been avoided. Evil beget evil. The Quarians warmongering started the domino topple.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 09:52 .

[4stringwizard]

Ryzaki wrote...

*snip*

Yes they did. You always have a choice. Might not be a fair choice but you always have a choice. They decided to go along with it. 

So with that in mind, why didn't the Geth choose to flee rather than side with the Reapers?  Why didn't they choose to reach out to the Quarians beforehand, and say they were open to peace?  Why didn't they CHOOSE to force the Quarians to surrender,  rather than commting genocide and wiping them out? 

So by your logic, the Geth brought any ill consequences on themselves because they chose their current situation.  

[Ryzaki]

4stringwizard wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*snip*

Yes they did. You always have a choice. Might not be a fair choice but you always have a choice. They decided to go along with it. 

So with that in mind, why didn't the Geth choose to flee rather than side with the Reapers?  Why didn't they choose to reach out to the Quarians beforehand, and say they were open to peace?  Why didn't they CHOOSE to force the Quarians to surrender,  rather than commting genocide and wiping them out? 

So by your logic, the Geth brought any ill consequences on themselves because they chose their current situation.  

The Geth's choices were flee (and be enslaved by the Reapers) or die.

The Quarians choices were force change, leave (which doesn't have to result in death you clearly see Quarians living on other planets. Not very well mind but they do live on other planets during their pilgrimages) or kill others. Choosing to leave the fleet and wander about in space is an option yes but it's not one sole option.

Not even the same thing.

The Quarians were never going to actually be forced to leave the fleet. even a child could see that. The Quarian military has too much dependance on the civilian fleet to discard them or completely ignore their whims.

As for forcing the Quarians to surrender. The Quarians were opening fire on them, what where they supposed to do just stand their and be blown away? As for beforehand that's actually explained. The Quarians weren't willing to listen to Legion and Tali. And after they did their sneak attack (and took out a chunk of the Geth's population) the Geth were on the ropes and went to the Reapers.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 10:02 .

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Oh yeah cause you know, a Civilan fleet would totally go away on its own into the Galaxy... they'd get massacred.. Civvy fleets being commanded by the Military. Cause all those children and old Quarians are totally going to munity against marines. So yes, they are unarmed. They carry their homes with them, they have no choice but to join in.

Your question about why wasn't there a split in the fleet... is answered a few times in the game..

Your talking as if the Quarian people had a choice, they did not. Just like you don't have a choice but to follow the laws etc of your country.

If a law came about tomorrow that said "You have to fight for your country, go and fight this country now. If you do not, you'll be exiled, split up from your family and sent to the other side of the world."

Yeah, hmm I wonder what most people would pick.

A fully armed civilian fleet would get massacred? Say what? THERE WAS THANNIX CANNONS ON THE LIVESHIPS. Unarmed my ass. Also Quarians have such a small population that the military fleet wouldn't even dream of letting the civilians leave. They'd have to cop to their demands if the majority of them was against the war. That wasn't the case. Remember Quarians have no jails, and exile is rare. If a significant amount of the population wants something and threatens to leave if they don't get it the threat alone is enough to force change.

Just tells me that not enough Quarians didn't want the war. 3 out of 4 admirals are pro it (even Raan and Tali go along with it.) Koris is the only admiral that openly opposes the war. Tali and Raan hide behind the "I can't go against the other admirals openly!" excuse.

Yes they did. You always have a choice. Might not be a fair choice but you always have a choice. They decided to go along with it. They let the military fleet put guns on their children's homes they have no right to act surprised or horrified when after their children are firing on someone else's home they blow it up.

I already argued that hypotical. The Quarians are not going to tell a signifcant amount of the population to GTFO. They can't afford it.

300year old wrecks that are held together with tape with cannons nailed on, is a pretty spot on description of a ship in the Civvy fleet, compared to everything else in the galaxy they may aswell be unarmed. Its like saying..



vs



You seem to forget who makes up the Civvys, the newly born, very young, the very old etc. Half of those, need the protection from their marines, they are like the police force/army/guardians etc. You really think that with a Galaxy at war, people who can't protect themselves, are going to run from those that can. No matter where they go they are going to find war, so they may aswell of gone with the military, hardly much of a choice.

[4stringwizard]

Ryzaki wrote...

4stringwizard wrote...

Yes.  And the Geth finished the fight by wiping out the entire Quarian race.  Hence genocide.  Which Shepard allows.

You're right.  The Geth decided submission, and siding with Shepard's enemy, was better than extinction.  Which is exactly what Saren wanted.   Which is exactly what Shepard was against the whole series.  They willingly sided with a race that they knew was out to exterminate all major organic races in the galaxy.  Had Shepard not intervened, their actions would have made the Reapers even stronger.  That is far more evil than anything the Quarians did.  

In self defense which isn't genocide. That the Quarians allow by continuing to fire after being told to stop. Why should Shep have to kill someone to stop someone else from attacking them? Where's the logic in that? Shep can't physically force the Quarian fleet to stop.

And if the Quarians had never attacked them in the first place they never would've sided with the Reapers in fear of their very existence and the whole incident could've been avoided. Evil beget evil. The Quarians warmongering started the domino topple.

Sigh.  I guess reading comprehension isn't one of your strengths.  Here, once again: (maybe you'll get it this time)

"genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group."

Taken straight from the dictionary.  Doesn't matter if it's in "self defense" or not.  


Ah, Quarian "warmongering".  I love that term.  It's not warmongering if they had a very good reason to start the war, which they did.  They wanted their homeworld back.  I know, how dare they!!!!  Right?  Anyway, they did it against a race of machines who had shown themselves to be nothing but aggressive toward organics, and side with the Reapers when backed into a corner.  They even had tactical reasons for doing so.  Having Rannoch back would have allowed the Quarians to establish a base of operations and keep their civilians safe (at least that's what it says in game).   Even with the war, they were indirectly helping Shepard.  At the very least, the game shows the Geth to be just as guilty as the Quarians. 

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
300year old wrecks that are held together with tape with cannons nailed on, is a pretty spot on description of a ship in the Civvy fleet, compared to everything else in the galaxy they may aswell be unarmed. Its like saying..

*snip*

vs

*snip*

You seem to forget who makes up the Civvys, the newly born, very young, the very old etc. Half of those, need the protection from their marines, they are like the police force/army/guardians etc. You really think that with a Galaxy at war, people who can't protect themselves, are going to run from those that can. No matter where they go they are going to find war, so they may aswell of gone with the military, hardly much of a choice.

First, The civilian ships include the liveships. Those were equipped with Thannix cannons. A 300 year old Ship with a advanced gun on it is nothing to mock. So might as well be unarmed? the hell you talking about? 

As for your last point. Exactly. Those are the exact people the military would have to listen to. That's the majority of their population. But instead the Quarians being utterly warmongering morons (or deciding it's a good idea to listen to said morons) decided it was a good idea knowing they had a delicate population to throw weapons on those ships (which this isn't that bad of an idea. There's a Reaper war going on this makes sense) and start a war with the Geth (this is where it goes full retard) to get a homeworld (that the Reapers could then easily lead seige to because the Quarians are fail ground forces)/ They get a superweapon and decided "lulz let's use it on beings not bothering us and one of our admirals is attempting to have peace talks with. Nothing could go wrong." it backfires spectacullary when said weapon causes the Geth to go to the Reapers rather than die and come back and proceed to kick their ass. Now they can't even fight full on because they have to protect their civilians who are now stuck in the middle of combat with the rest of them. Darwin Award material. No the Civilian fleet is with the military fleet because either there's not enough of them who oppose the war or they don't have enough spine to stand up to the military fleet. (NVM that this puts their children in danger).

[Terrorize69]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
300year old wrecks that are held together with tape with cannons nailed on, is a pretty spot on description of a ship in the Civvy fleet, compared to everything else in the galaxy they may aswell be unarmed. Its like saying..

*snip*

vs

*snip*

You seem to forget who makes up the Civvys, the newly born, very young, the very old etc. Half of those, need the protection from their marines, they are like the police force/army/guardians etc. You really think that with a Galaxy at war, people who can't protect themselves, are going to run from those that can. No matter where they go they are going to find war, so they may aswell of gone with the military, hardly much of a choice.

First, The civilian ships include the liveships. Those were equipped with Thannix cannons. A 300 year old Ship with a advanced gun on it is nothing to mock. So might as well be unarmed? the hell you talking about? 

As for your last point. Exactly. Those are the exact people the military would have to listen to. That's the majority of their population. But instead the Quarians being utterly warmongering morons (or deciding it's a good idea to listen to said morons) decided it was a good idea knowing they had a delicate population to throw weapons on those ships (which this isn't that bad of an idea. There's a Reaper war going on this makes sense) and start a war with the Geth (this is where it goes full retard) to get a homeworld (that the Reapers could then easily lead seige to because the Quarians are fail ground forces)/ They get a superweapon and decided "lulz let's use it on beings not bothering us and one of our admirals is attempting to have peace talks with. Nothing could go wrong." it backfires spectacullary when said weapon causes the Geth to go to the Reapers rather than die and come back and proceed to kick their ass. Now they can't even fight full on because they have to protect their civilians who are now stuck in the middle of combat with the rest of them. Darwin Award material. No the Civilian fleet is with the military fleet because either there's not enough of them who oppose the war or they don't have enough spine to stand up to the military fleet. (NVM that this puts their children in danger).

Clearly this is going no where, we are both firmly fixed in our views/opinons in what classes as Genocide, responsabilty, patriotism.

You say warmongering, I say children have no voice.

You'd rather put an entire species to death over one person, I'd rather forge a peace between them.

And so on.

Pointless debating is pointless.

[Ryzaki]

4stringwizard wrote...
Sigh.  I guess reading comprehension isn't one of your strengths.  Here, once again: (maybe you'll get it this time)

"genocide: the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group."

Taken straight from the dictionary.  Doesn't matter if it's in "self defense" or not.  


Ah, Quarian "warmongering".  I love that term.  It's not warmongering if they had a very good reason to start the war, which they did.  They wanted their homeworld back.  I know, how dare they!!!!  Right?  Anyway, they did it against a race of machines who had shown themselves to be nothing but aggressive toward organics, and side with the Reapers when backed into a corner.  They even had tactical reasons for doing so.  Having Rannoch back would have allowed the Quarians to establish a base of operations and keep their civilians safe (at least that's what it says in game).   Even with the war, they were indirectly helping Shepard.  At the very least, the game shows the Geth to be just as guilty as the Quarians. 

Dictionary matters very little in terms of law.  Also deliberate and systematic. I wouldn't consider self defense deliberate and systermatic. Nice try though.

And yes warmongers. Starting a war rather than attempting peace talks is foolish (this becomes particularly wallbangerish if Shep brought Legion to Tali's LM.) Going along with said war even after one of your enemies and 2 of your admirals are attempting war talks is even more warmongerish. And yes the Geth sided with a race of machines that are violent. I never said they did something good. But to them it was die or side with them. Who else would've helped them? No one even is on their side save Shepard (and that's only if you play him/her that way). Most people don't know about the heretic/normal geth split. They had little option. They weren't getting help from any organics that weren't Shepard.

As for Rannoch as a base to keep civilians safe.  The Quarians are horrible ground troops. Either they would've had to leave some of their military behind to protect their civililans (like every other race with a homeworld) when the Reapers eventually attacked deminishing their strength (and the Reapers would the second they realize there's enough harvestable Quarians in one easily accesible area the weaker Quarian military in comparison to every other race would just mean their homeworld would fall faster. The Quarian's specialty is space combat and the Reapers are just better. Just plain better. Even the turians and Krogan working together don't slow them down for long) they'd get pwn'd hard and fast. Add into their risk of infection and needs for sterilization that the Reapers could exploit and just a few indoctrinated Quarians could result in the whole planet being boned. (Just like the Batarians ironically and no I'm not saying they're like the Batarians in any way other than it only takes a few inviduals to cripple their defenses) The Reapers had turians, humans and Krogan against the ropes. The Quarians would get steamrolled. They don't do well on front lines. (neither do Salarians [sorry Kirahee you're awesome but you specialize in sabotage and stealth] before someone thinks I'm being a hater) They're techs they're good support not so much for holding the line. Shep sees this constantly for himself. The advantages of the fleet was the ability to move from system to system when the Reapers took some over. Yes if a reaper ever got to close they were screwed by that applies also for their homeworld. It took all of their fleets to take out one destroyer. With Shep arguably distracting it with the rolling act. Imagine the damage a Sovereign class Reaper would've done.

And they wouldn't have gone to the reapers without the Quarians attempting to kill them. The Quarians' warmongering caused the Geth to side with the Reapers. Thus the whole incident is the Quarians doing.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 juin 2012 - 10:34 .

[Fauxnormal]

Ryzaki wrote...

Terrorize69 wrote...
Who ever Shepard sides with, indirectly causes the genocide of a race, the decision and fate rests in her or her hands. It's as plain as that lol, theres no rationalizing it. Says "oops" or "well I personally didn't fire the gun" doesn't lessen the act.

Genocide is Genocide.

If your Shepard can't managed to convince a fleet to stop firing for a few secs then your Shepard stands no chance at commanding an entire Galaxy to die for you. Seems, silly.

Luckily for me although I always get peace between them, I wouldn't choice between either race. Trying to justify Genocide is, just wrong.

Oh for pete's sake no it's not. You want to pretend Shep killed the Quarians? Go ahead. Doesn't change the fact that they killed themselves. They were explicitly warned to stop attacking the Geth. They didn't. That's their fault. Callling it genocide when it's the backlash from them continuing to attempt to eradicate another species is laughable.

And it's a good thing my Shep leaves that to Hackett and Anderson then isn't it? He's a inspiration figure nothing more. He's there to rally the troops. Not to mention he gets the rest of the galaxy on his side quite easily.

4stringwizard wrote...
If the option's not there, Shepard still does nothing.  So basically you had a hand in it, too.  And in your mind, it's okay to wipe out a whole race and save machines that aren't alive because "you told 'dem you wouldn't do it if you was 'dem!!"

Shepard does attempt to talk them out of it it doesn't work. He tried. He failed. The lack of a magical blue persuade doesn't mean he didn't tell them to stop. Just that it didn't take. That's not his fault.

As for your last sentence yup. If I tell you to stop attacking and you don't? Not my fault not my problem what results since you decided not to listen. Shep told them to stop. It's not his responsibility since they didn't. They made their choice. Their choice ends up killing them. Sucks to be them!

Pretty much this. Trying to claim Shep killed the Quarians in this situation is laughable at best.

[Ryzaki]

Terrorize69 wrote...
Clearly this is going no where, we are both firmly fixed in our views/opinons in what classes as Genocide, responsabilty, patriotism.

You say warmongering, I say children have no voice.

You'd rather put an entire species to death over one person, I'd rather forge a peace between them.

And so on.

Pointless debating is pointless.

Agreed to disagree then.

[MisterJB]

Edolix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The right thing for the quarians. Not humanity, she bloody stole our technology.

The sad thing is all she needed to do was ask my Shep.

He would've given them to her. (unless it was my renedouche in which case her taking them is reasonable).

But no she goes behind his back like a thief.

Oh well. He sides with the Geth anyways.

I really don't see the big deal tbh. If there was no Reaper threat and Tali did indeed steal the Normandy tech, then i'd lose a lot of respect for her. But they all knew the Reapers were coming - they all had to prepare. I'm not going to hate on Tali for doing something that i'd have done if I were in her shoes. Also, I seriously doubt Shepard could have given away classified Alliance stealth tech even if asked *shrugs* but w/e.

Look at it this way: If the Quarians didn't have that stealth tech, they'd have no way of getting out of the Rannoch relay. This means they wouldn't be able to contact you for help, and you (Shepard) would be completely unaware of the situation in the Veil. In short, they'd all end up being annhilated by the Heretic Geth. This means you lose not one, but potentially two fleets. Worse, once the Quarians are gone the Reapers would most likely send the Geth fleets (at least fifteen thousand ships, probably more) out of the Veil to fight your allies. Including humanity.

I think in the long run Tali "stealing" that technology really isn't anything to get worked up over.

If the quarians hadn't started a war with the geth, they wouldn't have turned to the Reapers and thus, the quarians wouldn't have needed stealth systems and there would be more ships; including a Dreadnought; to use to save Earth.

Betrayal. BETRAYAL!