331 réponses à ce sujet

[Talhydras]

saracen16 wrote...

Only that the Reapers will win. Do you want to die willingly knowing that you have the key to saving all life in the galaxy right in front of you?

See, here's a point: How does Shep KNOW that s/he has the key to saving all life in the galaxy right there? Shep didn't build the Crucible. The people that Shep asked to build it have no idea how it works or what it does. When Shep talked to the people who made the specs those people followed to build it, Shep realized that they have no idea how it works or what it does. 

At the time of Shep's choice, the only person making clear statements about what the Crucible does is the Catalyst, and as of this writing there's been zero documented instances of Reapers being altruistic or cooperative with organic life. Up until Shep's choice, every single Reaper interaction has been them attempting to manipulate, intimidate, or destroy the galaxy. Both Sovereign and Harbinger used communication exclusively to intimidate Shep in ME1 and ME2. At no time did they ever state their goals, the specific extent of their power, or exactly what they would do.

So Shep can't trust the Catalyst without wilfully ignoring the billion+ year old pattern of Reapers doing everything they can to manipulate people into accepting or being vulnerable to harvesting. 

So Refusal can never be reframed the way you reframe it. Shep has no way to know what the Crucible does until s/he pushes a button or does nothing. Shep can choose to gamble everything on what evidence indicates is likely a trick based on the preexisting pattern, or choose to try and win a war that most people think is unwinnable. Both involve doing something colossally dumb, but since one of those choices isn't "believe someone who, based on every other interaction with their minions this cycle and every other cycle that came before us, is almost certainly lying to or manipulating me"   it's actually a bit smarter given the circumstances. 

Since Shep therefore can't know that the RGB choices will work, Refusal isn't actually about wilfully damning the galaxy but about who or what you place your bets on. Three options are placing your bets on the Reapers wanting to play nice all of the sudden. If you allow yourself to make your decision based on advance knowledge of what each ending video contains... then you're just deciding what ending video you want instead of making a decision in-character based on information Shep actually has. Shep hasn't been to Youtube. Shep doesn't know that Synthesis works, that Control doesn't just electrocute him/her, that Destroy doesn't just spray neurotoxin around. And Shep doesn't know that this cycle will always lose a Reaper war.

Sure, Hackett says we will, but if Priority Earth is his tactical acumen at its best then he shouldn't be treated as much of an expert. 

Modifié par Talhydras, 30 juin 2012 - 09:45 .

[F00lishG]

SHARXTREME wrote...


So morally, naturally, logically you must refuse. Worst offense to the players is to put Shepard in the position of "The Chosen One(that chooses Catalysts solutions)". "First organic that came so far" "Savior of us all"
Yeah, the current cycle can't win it conventionally. But next will, given you inform them about "Catalyst trap". And nature will win anyway. Catalyst can't beat the nature.

I was with you until the portion. It has been stated that the next cycle does use the Crucible. Don't know if you know that. I'm not saying that you are ignoring that tidbit, but it's out there. Fact is, someone else will make the decision that you was supposed to. Red Green or Blue. Choosing Refuse is kicking the can to someone more Shepard than you. Meaning you wasted lives and you wasted time

[Esquin]

F00lishG wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...


So morally, naturally, logically you must refuse. Worst offense to the players is to put Shepard in the position of "The Chosen One(that chooses Catalysts solutions)". "First organic that came so far" "Savior of us all"
Yeah, the current cycle can't win it conventionally. But next will, given you inform them about "Catalyst trap". And nature will win anyway. Catalyst can't beat the nature.

I was with you until the portion. It has been stated that the next cycle does use the Crucible. Don't know if you know that. I'm not saying that you are ignoring that tidbit, but it's out there. Fact is, someone else will make the decision that you was supposed to. Red Green or Blue. Choosing Refuse is kicking the can to someone more Shepard than you. Meaning you wasted lives and you wasted time

There's no evidence on if they use the crucible or not. Just that we for some reason decide to give them knowledge of it. Not really sure why though since the damn thing is a trap. 

The crucible is just one last way for the reapers to control the situation. There's no reason to assume anything the catalyst say's is true. It's a reaper! The choices given to you are all offered by a reaper. The only logical decision is to walk away. It's the only way to be sure you're not being manipulated. Forget what you know in hind sight. When presented with those options in that way there is only 1 option.

[v TricKy v]

F00lishG wrote...

SHARXTREME wrote...


So morally, naturally, logically you must refuse. Worst offense to the players is to put Shepard in the position of "The Chosen One(that chooses Catalysts solutions)". "First organic that came so far" "Savior of us all"
Yeah, the current cycle can't win it conventionally. But next will, given you inform them about "Catalyst trap". And nature will win anyway. Catalyst can't beat the nature.

I was with you until the portion. It has been stated that the next cycle does use the Crucible. Don't know if you know that. I'm not saying that you are ignoring that tidbit, but it's out there. Fact is, someone else will make the decision that you was supposed to. Red Green or Blue. Choosing Refuse is kicking the can to someone more Shepard than you. Meaning you wasted lives and you wasted time

That statement isnt in the game. If Bioware really wanted that, than it would have been in the game.
At this point everything is just speculation 

[N-Seven]

Much like the op, I dislike the refusal option greatly and did not choose it. But I'm glad the option is included in the game.

[Necrotron]

There is zero reason to believe that Control will work. It reeks of indoctrination.

Destroy contains too high a cost for many Paragon Shepards.

Synthesis is just wrong on sooo many levels.

In fact, there is zero credible information presented to Shepard at this point.  He can either trust the self-described creator of the Reapers and indoctrination or he can reject his plans for Shepard killing himself or potentially indoctrinating himself and search for another solution.  The latter seems the most reasonable course of action.

Would you trust Satan if you met him and he said you could kill yourself on a lever to save Earth?

Modifié par Bathaius, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:04 .

[N-Seven]

F00lishG wrote...


I was with you until the portion. It has been stated that the next cycle does use the Crucible. Don't know if you know that. I'm not saying that you are ignoring that tidbit, but it's out there. Fact is, someone else will make the decision that you was supposed to. Red Green or Blue. Choosing Refuse is kicking the can to someone more Shepard than you. Meaning you wasted lives and you wasted time

I'm wondering where this was stated?  But yeah I mean if in the next cycle someone named Commander Bishop pushes the red button, it would seem an incredible waste of lives.   'Hmmm, why didn't the last dude do this?  Would have saved trillions.'

[Cant Planet]

Talhydras wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Only that the Reapers will win. Do you want to die willingly knowing that you have the key to saving all life in the galaxy right in front of you?

See, here's a point: How does Shep KNOW that s/he has the key to saving all life in the galaxy right there? Shep didn't build the Crucible. The people that Shep asked to build it have no idea how it works or what it does. When Shep talked to the people who made the specs those people followed to build it, Shep realized that they have no idea how it works or what it does. 

At the time of Shep's choice, the only person making clear statements about what the Crucible does is the Catalyst, and as of this writing there's been zero documented instances of Reapers being altruistic or cooperative with organic life. Up until Shep's choice, every single Reaper interaction has been them attempting to manipulate, intimidate, or destroy the galaxy. Both Sovereign and Harbinger used communication exclusively to intimidate Shep in ME1 and ME2. At no time did they ever state their goals, the specific extent of their power, or exactly what they would do.

So Shep can't trust the Catalyst without wilfully ignoring the billion+ year old pattern of Reapers doing everything they can to manipulate people into accepting or being vulnerable to harvesting. 

So Refusal can never be reframed the way you reframe it. Shep has no way to know what the Crucible does until s/he pushes a button or does nothing. Shep can choose to gamble everything on what evidence indicates is likely a trick based on the preexisting pattern, or choose to try and win a war that most people think is unwinnable. Both involve doing something colossally dumb, but since one of those choices isn't "believe someone who, based on every other interaction with their minions this cycle and every other cycle that came before us, is almost certainly lying to or manipulating me"   it's actually a bit smarter given the circumstances. 

Since Shep therefore can't know that the RGB choices will work, Refusal isn't actually about wilfully damning the galaxy but about who or what you place your bets on. Three options are placing your bets on the Reapers wanting to play nice all of the sudden. If you allow yourself to make your decision based on advance knowledge of what each ending video contains... then you're just deciding what ending video you want instead of making a decision in-character based on information Shep actually has. Shep hasn't been to Youtube. Shep doesn't know that Synthesis works, that Control doesn't just electrocute him/her, that Destroy doesn't just spray neurotoxin around. And Shep doesn't know that this cycle will always lose a Reaper war.

Sure, Hackett says we will, but if Priority Earth is his tactical acumen at its best then he shouldn't be treated as much of an expert. 

This is basically why I made this thread:
http://social.biowar...3392/1#12853392
...which apparently I am now shamelessly pimping.

Modifié par Cant Planet, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[N-Seven]

Bathaius wrote...

Would you trust Satan if you met him and he said you could kill yourself on a lever to save Earth?

If we were already on the verge of defeat?  Countless lives already lost, with friends dying around me, and the situation looking desperate?   A good chance, yep.  He is already winning and holding the cards.

[OnelShot]

Reject makes much more sense when you have low EMS and only have one other option, specifically control to chose from.

[Hackulator]

David7204 wrote...

If you disagree with the Catalyst simply because he's the Catalyst, then he has just as much control over you as if you agreed to whatever he said.

WHAT THIS GUY SAYS x1000

[Jackums]

Bathaius wrote...

There is zero reason to believe that Control will work. It reeks of indoctrination.

Except the epilogue, the Stargazer scene, and the endgame message that states Shepard ended the Reaper threat.

[F00lishG]

N-Seven wrote...

F00lishG wrote...


I was with you until the portion. It has been stated that the next cycle does use the Crucible. Don't know if you know that. I'm not saying that you are ignoring that tidbit, but it's out there. Fact is, someone else will make the decision that you was supposed to. Red Green or Blue. Choosing Refuse is kicking the can to someone more Shepard than you. Meaning you wasted lives and you wasted time

I'm wondering where this was stated?  But yeah I mean if in the next cycle someone named Commander Bishop pushes the red button, it would seem an incredible waste of lives.   'Hmmm, why didn't the last dude do this?  Would have saved trillions.'

It was in a tweet. I forget who. Yeah I know it sounds like B.S. because anyone can tweet but it was someone really important who said it. Can't remember who but they have a hand in the ME Universe. Tweets are canon though.

[N-Seven]

Talhydras wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Only that the Reapers will win. Do you want to die willingly knowing that you have the key to saving all life in the galaxy right in front of you?

See, here's a point: How does Shep KNOW that s/he has the key to saving all life in the galaxy right there? Shep didn't build the Crucible. The people that Shep asked to build it have no idea how it works or what it does. When Shep talked to the people who made the specs those people followed to build it, Shep realized that they have no idea how it works or what it does. 

At the time of Shep's choice, the only person making clear statements about what the Crucible does is the Catalyst, and as of this writing there's been zero documented instances of Reapers being altruistic or cooperative with organic life. Up until Shep's choice, every single Reaper interaction has been them attempting to manipulate, intimidate, or destroy the galaxy. Both Sovereign and Harbinger used communication exclusively to intimidate Shep in ME1 and ME2. At no time did they ever state their goals, the specific extent of their power, or exactly what they would do.

So Shep can't trust the Catalyst without wilfully ignoring the billion+ year old pattern of Reapers doing everything they can to manipulate people into accepting or being vulnerable to harvesting. 

So Refusal can never be reframed the way you reframe it. Shep has no way to know what the Crucible does until s/he pushes a button or does nothing. Shep can choose to gamble everything on what evidence indicates is likely a trick based on the preexisting pattern, or choose to try and win a war that most people think is unwinnable. Both involve doing something colossally dumb, but since one of those choices isn't "believe someone who, based on every other interaction with their minions this cycle and every other cycle that came before us, is almost certainly lying to or manipulating me"   it's actually a bit smarter given the circumstances. 

Since Shep therefore can't know that the RGB choices will work, Refusal isn't actually about wilfully damning the galaxy but about who or what you place your bets on. Three options are placing your bets on the Reapers wanting to play nice all of the sudden. If you allow yourself to make your decision based on advance knowledge of what each ending video contains... then you're just deciding what ending video you want instead of making a decision in-character based on information Shep actually has. Shep hasn't been to Youtube. Shep doesn't know that Synthesis works, that Control doesn't just electrocute him/her, that Destroy doesn't just spray neurotoxin around. And Shep doesn't know that this cycle will always lose a Reaper war.

Sure, Hackett says we will, but if Priority Earth is his tactical acumen at its best then he shouldn't be treated as much of an expert. 

I would agree with most of this.  Not the part about refusal being 'smarter', but just about everything else.  The choice the player makes is based on their beliefs, not just morally/ethically, but also their beliefs on the status of the war and the nature of the AI they are conversing with.  

If we theorize that one does not know what the actual results will be in advance, the choices kind of look like this to me:

Refuse:  The player likely does not trust the Catalyst.  May believe the war can still be won conventionally.   Views other options as perhaps compromising principles, or simply as lies.   The question of personal survival, is a bit up in the air.

Control: The player believes the Catalyst.  Is willing to sacrifice himself.  Does not believe the war can be won conventionally.  Has no qualms about controlling reapers, either ethically or any self-doubt that he can do so responsibly.

Synthesis:  The player believes the Catalyst.  Is willing to sacrifice himself.  Does not believe the war can be won conventionally.  However the idea of 'advancing evolution' is appealing (rather than abhorrent).  The player believes the lifeforms of the galaxy are 'ready' for this.   All life, synthetic and organic should coexist, and without control.

Destroy:  The player believes the Catalyst.  Does not believe the war can be won conventionally.  Believes the galaxy is better off without the Reapers entirely.  Is willing to sacrifice the Geth and Edi.   Again, personal survival is up in the air.

And actually looking back all of them are appealing in their own way.

Modifié par N-Seven, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:27 .

[Esquin]

JackumsD wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

There is zero reason to believe that Control will work. It reeks of indoctrination.

Except the epilogue, the Stargazer scene, and the endgame message that states Shepard ended the Reaper threat.

Hindsight doesn't count. In that situation, when presented with those options by a known reaper, would you pick them? Without any advance knowledge of what they'll really do or if they're legit or not.

[Bill Casey]

F00lishG wrote...

It was in a tweet. I forget who. Yeah I know it sounds like B.S. because anyone can tweet but it was someone really important who said it. Can't remember who but they have a hand in the ME Universe. Tweets are canon though.

Bull****...
Tweets are not canon...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .

[Jackums]

Esquin wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

Bathaius wrote...

There is zero reason to believe that Control will work. It reeks of indoctrination.

Except the epilogue, the Stargazer scene, and the endgame message that states Shepard ended the Reaper threat.

Hindsight doesn't count. In that situation, when presented with those options by a known reaper, would you pick them? Without any advance knowledge of what they'll really do or if they're legit or not.

You don't even know if the Catalyst is the one that controls the Reapers, so you have to take it all on faith; all of the choices, not exclusively Control. None of them are inherently more believable.

But my point was that it works in the end, as I'm taking Bathaius' post as pessimism towards the endings from a gamer's perspective, not from Shepard's. I don't think he was speaking from Shep's POV at the time.

[Jackums]

Bill Casey wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

It was in a tweet. I forget who. Yeah I know it sounds like B.S. because anyone can tweet but it was someone really important who said it. Can't remember who but they have a hand in the ME Universe. Tweets are canon though.

Bull****...
Tweets are not canon...

Statements made by the producer of the franchise are canon until proven otherwise, whether you like it or not.

[F00lishG]

Bill Casey wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

It was in a tweet. I forget who. Yeah I know it sounds like B.S. because anyone can tweet but it was someone really important who said it. Can't remember who but they have a hand in the ME Universe. Tweets are canon though.

Bull****...
Tweets are not canon...

I know that Emily Wong fiasco tweet was ridiculous but tweets can be accepted just like spoken words.

Modifié par F00lishG, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:47 .

[v TricKy v]

JackumsD wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

It was in a tweet. I forget who. Yeah I know it sounds like B.S. because anyone can tweet but it was someone really important who said it. Can't remember who but they have a hand in the ME Universe. Tweets are canon though.

Bull****...
Tweets are not canon...

Statements made by the producer of the franchise are canon until proven otherwise, whether you like it or not.

Mike Gamles twitter account says that "Opions here may not be shared by BioWare or EA." Hmmm....
Also why did they go out of their way and not told us in-game how the other cylce won if the think that the crucible is the only way to beat the reapers? If the discussion about it gets more heated you can bet that he will say that it was only his opinion. Do you have a link to it by the way?
Because the people are talking about it but I never saw it first hand.

[saracen16]

Talhydras wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

Only that the Reapers will win. Do you want to die willingly knowing that you have the key to saving all life in the galaxy right in front of you?

See, here's a point: How does Shep KNOW that s/he has the key to saving all life in the galaxy right there? Shep didn't build the Crucible. The people that Shep asked to build it have no idea how it works or what it does. When Shep talked to the people who made the specs those people followed to build it, Shep realized that they have no idea how it works or what it does. 

At the time of Shep's choice, the only person making clear statements about what the Crucible does is the Catalyst, and as of this writing there's been zero documented instances of Reapers being altruistic or cooperative with organic life. Up until Shep's choice, every single Reaper interaction has been them attempting to manipulate, intimidate, or destroy the galaxy. Both Sovereign and Harbinger used communication exclusively to intimidate Shep in ME1 and ME2. At no time did they ever state their goals, the specific extent of their power, or exactly what they would do.

So Shep can't trust the Catalyst without wilfully ignoring the billion+ year old pattern of Reapers doing everything they can to manipulate people into accepting or being vulnerable to harvesting. 

So Refusal can never be reframed the way you reframe it. Shep has no way to know what the Crucible does until s/he pushes a button or does nothing. Shep can choose to gamble everything on what evidence indicates is likely a trick based on the preexisting pattern, or choose to try and win a war that most people think is unwinnable. Both involve doing something colossally dumb, but since one of those choices isn't "believe someone who, based on every other interaction with their minions this cycle and every other cycle that came before us, is almost certainly lying to or manipulating me"   it's actually a bit smarter given the circumstances. 

Since Shep therefore can't know that the RGB choices will work, Refusal isn't actually about wilfully damning the galaxy but about who or what you place your bets on. Three options are placing your bets on the Reapers wanting to play nice all of the sudden. If you allow yourself to make your decision based on advance knowledge of what each ending video contains... then you're just deciding what ending video you want instead of making a decision in-character based on information Shep actually has. Shep hasn't been to Youtube. Shep doesn't know that Synthesis works, that Control doesn't just electrocute him/her, that Destroy doesn't just spray neurotoxin around. And Shep doesn't know that this cycle will always lose a Reaper war.

Sure, Hackett says we will, but if Priority Earth is his tactical acumen at its best then he shouldn't be treated as much of an expert. 

You raise some excellent points, but I contend that the Catalyst's only manipulation was towards the Synthesis ending since this is ideally his (and evidently, my) solution to the organic-synthetic question.

Had it not been for the Crucible, the Catalyst would not be open to these new possibilities, and is in fact helping Shepard, telling him that he alone can act on those solutions after the variables have been altered. It's already stated that the Crucible requires the Catalyst to work, to focus these energy transmissions. The organics regard it as the Citadel. For the Crucible to be a Reaper trap, it should have been made by the Reapers, but evidence in the dialogue shows otherwise. We know from the beginning of the game that the Crucible is the only way to stop the Reapers, and that it is a product of the organic civilizations. We do not have proof that it was created by the Reapers themselves. If it was, they would have used it sooner, but the Catalyst already couldn't work it out. This suggests that the Crucible is something new to them.

Moreover, the Catalyst is a program designed to perform one task, stuck in a logic loop for eons on end, and went uncorrected for that amount of time. The logic is disagreeable, but it's still logic. As such, you can not ascribe deceit to a character who, after giving us a destroy option, has no reason, IMO, to lie to us. He can sway us towards the synthesis option, but we don't have to choose it.

[Cant Planet]

JackumsD wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

It was in a tweet. I forget who. Yeah I know it sounds like B.S. because anyone can tweet but it was someone really important who said it. Can't remember who but they have a hand in the ME Universe. Tweets are canon though.

Bull****...
Tweets are not canon...

Statements made by the producer of the franchise are canon until proven otherwise, whether you like it or not.

I think of this extra kind of information, like tweets, as "canonesque". It's Word of God, yes, but since it's not technically part of the text of the work, it's still a little loose.

For example -- HUGE Firefly/Serenity spoiler ahead for the next two paragraphs, so be warned -- in the later part of the feature film, Wash gets pretty obviously killed. Now, if they were to make more Firefly, and they wanted to bring Alan Tudyk back, Joss Whedon would have to come up with some pretty fancy explainin' to get around that fact. He couldn't just pop back in, it wouldn't be narratively acceptable.

But imagine if Wash hadn't met his fate that way, and -- for example -- the crew had come up to the cockpit to get him, but found the windows smashed, him gone, and blood all over. Now imagine further that Joss Whedon has referred to Wash being dead in some interview or other. Now, if they make more Firefly, things are much easier and more flexible. Yes, the character's creator said he was dead, but it's not officially a part of the story. They could have him come back, they don't have to undo any of what's already been told, and if people challenge Whedon about what he said, he can just reply "well, I changed my mind".

It's a creator's prerogative to leave things vague, change their minds, or even deliberately mislead their audience. If they do it with positive intent, they will generally be forgiven, and if they do it really well, they will be celebrated for it.

So I don't worry about the tweets too much. To me, Emily Wong is "probably dead", not "definitely dead".

[Jackums]

v TricKy v wrote...

Mike Gamles twitter account says that "Opions here may not be shared by BioWare or EA." Hmmm....

He didn't articulate the statement as an opinion. He was answering a fan's question.

It was fairly straight-forward.

[Zaire Taylor]

Do I want to be like a Heretic and let the Reapers give me my future, or will I be Geth and let us organics build our own future in future cycles?  Simply a matter of morals and principles.

[Nragedreaper]

F00lishG wrote...

Why is it so hard to see that the you basically won when you meet the Catalyst? He will stand and do nothing and you can destroy all the Reapers. There. War over. No one else needs to die.

Is it because he told you the choice existed, thus taking away the power of something you were going to do anyways? Is that it?

Is it because the idea of a Giant supeweapon merging with the Reaper Boss A.I. too much for you to handle? Is that it?

Or are you all just so cynical that you see yourself  rejecting Bioware itself because you cannot accept what was handed to you?

I genuinely want to know. Because I cannot see preferring genocide and ascension to destroying the enemy that you sworn to do since ME1.

I reject the endings, because the kid's lying.  I know he's lying I know he's wrong.  However the problem is I can't  do anything about it but to reject the choices.  I reject the ending not because I'm thinking about genocide.  I prefer the reject ending because it reminds me that yeah Bioware may be listening, but it's their story and they don't know how to write mine.  I need to remember that when they ask me to sign on to buy the next game. The problem is that the ending choices don't sound like the character we all created,  They allowed everyone to create their own Hero, but then tried to lead him/her down only 3 paths, some of us were going to be left out.  Some of us wanted the experience we had before from other bioware games, where there was always a loop hole, not to get out of the final fight, but to make the deal that sacrificed something, but never too much.  I find the Control and Synthesis endings as morally repulsive so that only left destroy which I didn't care for because I liked legion.  So what's left. Reject.