345 réponses à ce sujet

[Creakazoid]

Do know how the ROF of the Striker ramps up? I mean, is the listed ROF for the Striker a mean value over a whole mag or is it something else?

[GodlessPaladin]

Creakazoid wrote...

Do know how the ROF of the Striker ramps up? I mean, is the listed ROF for the Striker a mean value over a whole mag or is it something else?

Good question.  I'd like to know the precise mechanics for the Striker and Geth Plasma SMG myself.  I didn't see anything about it on a quick look through the DLC ini. 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 05 juillet 2012 - 05:44 .

[peddroelm]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Creakazoid wrote...

Do know how the ROF of the Striker ramps up? I mean, is the listed ROF for the Striker a mean value over a whole mag or is it something else?

Good question.  I'd like to know the precise mechanics for the Striker and Geth Plasma SMG myself.  I didn't see anything about it on a quick look through the DLC ini. 

http://social.biowar...ndex/11804913/1 

[WizeMan305]

Inferno Grenade Shrapnel gives an extra explosion to the grenade that causes stagger and also stacks upon itself. I am not sure if it is for base damage or damage after all the boost but taking Shrapnel has an amazing increase on its damage, also the stagger that was not there before is pretty noticeable too.

[GodlessPaladin]

Updated with Geth Plasma SMG and Striker Assault Rifle info.

[inakrin]

Another info took from game BINs:

And again about shields!

1. If you take fitness 5 tier as increasing restoration of the shield, you'll gain -0.15f and that means reducing shield restore time (either from full break or just partially one) for 0.15 sec 

These comsumables are decreasing regen delay either from full or partial breaking)

Shield power cells consumables - they're decreasing your shield restore delay by fixed amount (0.1/0.2/0.3 sec for any kind of restoration) 

maximum delay decreasing is 0.45 sec (3.55/2.55 delay for gold)


These consumables are increasing your shield regen speed:

Gold "stronghold" gear is affecting yout restore shield speed (33% for bronze, 28.6% for silver and 25% for gold). And thats how:

I. 0.03f or 3% (36%, 31.6%, 28%)
II. 0.05
III. 0.07
IV. 0.085 or 8.5%
V. 0.1 or 10% (40% per second for bronze, 38.6% for silver and 35% for gold)

Same is for silver ShieldRegen gear but with increased amount (48% per second for bronze, 43.6% for silver and 40% for gold at rank V)


So it wise for you to use gears if you have a lot of shield power. Other than you'd rather take power cells - to improve your survival chances via faster shieldgate ratio
hope it'll be useful - didn't find answer at OP

Modifié par inakrin, 06 juillet 2012 - 06:18 .

[Spiffspoo]

WizeMan305 wrote...

Inferno Grenade Shrapnel gives an extra explosion to the grenade that causes stagger and also stacks upon itself. I am not sure if it is for base damage or damage after all the boost but taking Shrapnel has an amazing increase on its damage, also the stagger that was not there before is pretty noticeable too.

I have tested when a unit gets hit by the "shrapnel" explosion,  and the only difference is +/- 1 tick of damage and even then it is rare, if that is what it really does.  You don't get a whole grenades worth of ticks if they are hit by the shrapnel, and it doesn't look like it produces any extra stagger compared to the original grenade.

[KyreneZA]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

The Geth Plasma SMG
- Starts at 250 ROF, and ramps up to 1500 ROF over the course of 5 rounds, effectively wasting about ~0.5 seconds of firing time during the ramp up. (Source:  Grimy_Bunyip)

This gun, and the Striker below, benefits greatly from anything that extends the amount of shots in your clip. You want that maximum RoF to be effective for as long as possible. Is the ramp up Grimy speaks of linear (250 for 1st, 500 for 2nd, 750 for 3rd, 1000 for 4th, 1250 for 5th, 1500 for rest)?

The Striker Assault Rifle
- The Striker's first shot has a cooldown of ~0.6 seconds (IE 100 RoF), second shot has a cooldown of ~0.36 seconds (IE 166 RoF), third shot and additional shots have a CD of ~0.22 seconds (IE 275 RoF).  Effectively, this means the Striker has 275 ROF, only you waste an extra ~0.5 seconds initially, ramping up to the 275 ROF.  (Source:  Grimy_Bunyip)

Actually, here the waste is ~0.96 seconds, not ~0.5 seconds. Effective RoF ranges from 229 (no mods, default magazine of 12) to 247 (MU V, or magazine of 21).

Armor 
Armor provides a flat reduction to incoming damage (down to a minimum of X damage per shot).  This number varies based on difficulty.  On Gold it's 50, on Silver it's 30, and on Bronze it's 15.  As such, weapons that deal high damage per shot will lose significantly less damage against armor.   Armor penetration reduces this flat number.  Will add more precise information on this in a bit.

The formula is DR * (1 - sum(AP))

The numbers are as follows for the Shredder/Piercing mods:
Bronze 15.00 : 11.25 : 9.75 : 8.25 : 6.75 : 5.25
Silver 30.00 : 22.50 : 19.50 : 16.50 : 13.50 : 10.50
Gold 50.00 : 37.50 : 32.50 : 27.50 : 22.50 : 17.50

[GodlessPaladin]

Kyrene wrote...

The Striker Assault Rifle
- The Striker's first shot has a cooldown of ~0.6 seconds (IE 100 RoF), second shot has a cooldown of ~0.36 seconds (IE 166 RoF), third shot and additional shots have a CD of ~0.22 seconds (IE 275 RoF).  Effectively, this means the Striker has 275 ROF, only you waste an extra ~0.5 seconds initially, ramping up to the 275 ROF.  (Source:  Grimy_Bunyip)

Actually, here the waste is ~0.96 seconds, not ~0.5 seconds. Effective RoF ranges from 229 (no mods, default magazine of 12) to 247 (MU V, or magazine of 21).

  (.6-.22)+(.36-.22)=0.52 seconds wasted from pure 275 ROF, not 0.96.

Incindentally, I have just done some extensive testing on INCINERATE, and it turns out it gets multiplicative bonuses.

Testing on Bronze:
Rank 6, +35% passive, +20% rank 3, +50% passive, +50% armor damage:  1 shot against pyro armor.  Only takes 1 bar off of a Hunter's shields with the instant damage alone.  Leaves a Geth Trooper with two bars of health.

Rank 1, no bonuses whatsoever:  14 shots against Brute (6000 armor), 8 shots against Ravager (3600 armor), 3 shots against Cannibal (just barely dying as the DOT runs out, 900 health).  This means I'm doing 450 a shot against armor, and no bonus against health.

Rank 6, no passive, +20% rank 3, +30% rank 4, +50% armor damage:  6 shots againts brute, 4 shots against ravager.  This suggests that the rank 6 bonus against armor is actually a multiplier.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:00 .

[1337haxwtg]

This thread is bad and you should feel bad.

EDIT: I Suppose I have a terrible sense of humor, particularly at this time of the day (sleepy). This thread is actually great.

Modifié par 1337haxwtg, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:30 .

[peddroelm]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Incindentally, I have just done some extensive testing on INCINERATE, and it turns out it gets multiplicative bonuses.

Incinerate has a 1.5 modifer vs armor ...

The rank 6 evolution 50% vs armor is indeed multiplicative ...(most rank 6 evolutions vs specific defense types are multiplicative - there is even an old dev post on the subject)

Incinerate damage damage vs armor with 30%, 40% and 50% vs armor evolution

300 * (1 + 0.3 + 0.4) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 1147.5

[GodlessPaladin]

peddroelmz wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Incindentally, I have just done some extensive testing on INCINERATE, and it turns out it gets multiplicative bonuses.

Incinerate has a 1.5 modifer vs armor ...

The rank 6 evolution 50% vs armor is indeed multiplicative ...(most rank 6 evolutions vs specific defense types are multiplicative - there is even an old dev post on the subject)

Incinerate damage damage vs armor with 30%, 40% and 50% vs armor evolution

300 * (1 + 0.3 + 0.4) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 1147.5

This is weird though, how come my test Quarian Engineer (with full damage spec and +45% power damage from passive) on Silver didn't OHKO a Pyro's armor?  It left it with one bar. 

Silver Pyro has 1575 armor.  1575/300 means you need a 525% damage bonus to one-shot it.  With +20%(rank 3)+30%(rank 4)+50%(DOT rank 5)+45%(Passive), and a multiplier of 1.5 * 1.5, that should be enough, providing a 551.25% damage bonus.  But it wasn't enough.  What gives?  Is the +50% damage over time not being multiplied?

peddroelmz wrote...(most rank 6 evolutions vs specific defense
types are multiplicative - there is even an old dev post on the
subject)

  I'd really appreciate it if you could find said post.  Also, you say most, so I'd really appreciate if you could tell me which ones...

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:16 .

[KyreneZA]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

(.6-.22)+(.36-.22)=0.52 seconds wasted from pure 275 ROF, not 0.96.

I apologise. You are of course correct and I misunderstood.

That means you only waste ~0.3 seconds (or 0.348 seconds to be precise, assuming that each of the five shots is 250 spm faster than the previous) with the GPSMG. Those bits (conclusions) can be confusing and/or misleading...

Also, any answer to the question I asked about the ramp up for the GPSMG? I have a spreadheet for my own MP weapons I'd like to update.

[GodlessPaladin]

Kyrene wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

(.6-.22)+(.36-.22)=0.52 seconds wasted from pure 275 ROF, not 0.96.

I apologise. You are of course correct and I misunderstood.

That means you only waste ~0.3 seconds (or 0.348 seconds to be precise, assuming that each of the five shots is 250 spm faster than the previous) with the GPSMG. Those bits (conclusions) can be confusing and/or misleading...

Also, any answer to the question I asked about the ramp up for the GPSMG? I have a spreadheet for my own MP weapons I'd like to update.

Grimy_Bunyip did the GPSMG testing, not me.  If you want any information he didn't provide I suggest testing it yourself and reporting back.

However, since the Striker ramp up doesn't appear to be linear (it gained ~1.66x ROF each shot according to Grimy's data. 100*1.66=166, 166*1.66=~275), I don't expect the GPSMG would be either.

If it follows a similarly exponential pattern, then it would ramp up from 250 (~.24 sec) to ~390 (~.15 sec) to ~610 (~.1 sec) to ~960 (~.06 sec) to 1500 (.04 sec), multiplying by a factor of ~1.565 each time (250*x^4=1500, 4th root of 6 is ~1.565)   This would result in about half a second of waste when compared to a pure 1500 ROF.  But that's just me throwing numbers off the top of my head. 

Or, if Grimy means that it achieves 1500 ROF on the sixth bullet, it would ramp up from 250 (.24) to ~357.5 (~.18) to ~511.225 (~.12) to ~731.05 (~.08) to ~1045.4 (~.06) to 1500 (0.4). 

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:56 .

[Eckswhyzed]

inakrin wrote...

Gold "stronghold" gear is affecting yout restore shield speed (33% for bronze, 28.6% for silver and 25% for gold). And thats how:

I. 0.03f or 3% (36%, 31.6%, 28%)
II. 0.05
III. 0.07
IV. 0.085 or 8.5%
V. 0.1 or 10% (40% per second for bronze, 38.6% for silver and 35% for gold)

Same is for silver ShieldRegen gear but with increased amount (48% per second for bronze, 43.6% for silver and 40% for gold at rank V)


So it wise for you to use gears if you have a lot of shield power. Other than you'd rather take power cells - to improve your survival chances via faster shieldgate ratio
hope it'll be useful - didn't find answer at OP

HANG ON A SEC.

My own testing seems to indicate that Stronghold gear decreases the delay before you shield recharges. If anyone can reccomend some decent free video editing software I can upload something to youtube.

[inakrin]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

inakrin wrote...

Gold "stronghold" gear is affecting yout restore shield speed (33% for bronze, 28.6% for silver and 25% for gold). And thats how:

I. 0.03f or 3% (36%, 31.6%, 28%)
II. 0.05
III. 0.07
IV. 0.085 or 8.5%
V. 0.1 or 10% (40% per second for bronze, 38.6% for silver and 35% for gold)

Same is for silver ShieldRegen gear but with increased amount (48% per second for bronze, 43.6% for silver and 40% for gold at rank V)


So it wise for you to use gears if you have a lot of shield power. Other than you'd rather take power cells - to improve your survival chances via faster shieldgate ratio
hope it'll be useful - didn't find answer at OP

HANG ON A SEC.

My own testing seems to indicate that Stronghold gear decreases the delay before you shield recharges. If anyone can reccomend some decent free video editing software I can upload something to youtube.

orly? you can detect differ between 3.5 and 3.37 seconds? Providing your logic V rank of stronghold gear grants you just 0.15 sec delay decreasing...i don't think this it's worth it...

[peddroelm]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

GodlessPaladin wrote...

Incindentally, I have just done some extensive testing on INCINERATE, and it turns out it gets multiplicative bonuses.

Incinerate has a 1.5 modifer vs armor ...

The rank 6 evolution 50% vs armor is indeed multiplicative ...(most rank 6 evolutions vs specific defense types are multiplicative - there is even an old dev post on the subject)

Incinerate damage damage vs armor with 30%, 40% and 50% vs armor evolution

300 * (1 + 0.3 + 0.4) * 1.5 * 1.5 = 1147.5

This is weird though, how come my test Quarian Engineer (with full damage spec and +45% power damage from passive) on Silver didn't OHKO a Pyro's armor?  It left it with one bar. 

Silver Pyro has 1575 armor.  1575/300 means you need a 525% damage bonus to one-shot it.  With +20%(rank 3)+30%(rank 4)+50%(DOT rank 5)+45%(Passive), and a multiplier of 1.5 * 1.5, that should be enough, providing a 551.25% damage bonus.  But it wasn't enough.  What gives?  Is the +50% damage over time not being multiplied?

peddroelmz wrote...(most rank 6 evolutions vs specific defense
types are multiplicative - there is even an old dev post on the
subject)

  I'd really appreciate it if you could find said post.  Also, you say most, so I'd really appreciate if you could tell me which ones...

Could be like this
300 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.45) * 1.5 * 1.5 + 300 * 0.5 = 1466.25
or like this
300 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.45) * 1.5 * 1.5 + 300 * 0.5 * 1.5 = 1541.25

I do not remember testing incinerate extra DOT evolution (I would've posted it in my power damage thread ..was more interested in weapon damage not powers )

As for that dev post I will search for it - but it is very old and I'm not sure i'll find it ...

And for the "most" quantifier  - I did not test all powers so I cannot claim that for all of them the rank 6 damage evolutions  vs specific defence types are multiplicative ... But I do remember that dev post and also for the few I tested (overload, incinerate, ed ..)  it was verified ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:52 .

[GodlessPaladin]

peddroelmz wrote...
Could be like this
300 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.45) * 1.5 * 1.5 + 300 * 0.5 = 1466.25
or like this
300 * (1 + 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.45) * 1.5 * 1.5 + 300 * 0.5 * 1.5 = 1541.25

  The question is, which is it?  Or is it something else entirely?

Geez, I hate when games don't tell you (or in the case of this game, even outright mislead you) about crucial, fundamental gameplay mechanics.  How can they expect players to make informed character building decisions in such a state?  /angry rant

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:15 .

[peddroelm]

Saw your /angry rant before edit

here is a post of mine from 2 years ago related to ME2
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/2540134  
before I started to reverse engineer the ME2 damage formula and some more of my rants here ...
http://masseffect.wi..._Damage_Formula  

It starts with this quote from a dev responsible for Mass Effect 2 , Christina Norman (she was commenting on my reverseed engineered weapon damage formula for mass effect 2) 


"Hey Christina here.

The ME2 damage formula is pretty complicated. As noted in the quote below, we had very precise rules for how damage should work, but those rules were probably not 100% accurately implemented in the shipping game. The reality of game dev is sometimes things don't get done absolutely perfectly, and in the case of damage formulas what we ended up with was close enough to what I intended that I was comfortable shipping it.


What I can tell you:

The formula guessed at here seems fairly accurate, it's not exactly what I intended but it seems fairly close
I can't tell you exactly what the damage formula is in the shipped copies of ME2, I'd have to do an awful lot of testing to nail down exactly what it was. The approach I used for acceptance was not to reverse engineer what programming implemented, it was to test edge cases and file any major discrepancies I noticed.
Philosophically the intended approach of our damage formula was lots of linear bonuses that stack, and few multiplicative bonuses that exponentially stack. For example, if you have a passive class skill that gives you 10% bonus damage, and you also get 30% from tech upgrades, your total bonus will be +40% not 43%. Examples of multiplicative bonuses that stack are: headshot damage, summed total of bonus damage, and range bonus.
It's very hard to figure out our damage formula in part because range is such a huge factor. Most weapons do more damage up close, and less damage when you're far, and we make this calculation with a huge amount of precision. So if you shoot someone with a heavy pistol from 7 meters, you will do more damage than someone who shoots someone wiht a heavy pistol at 7.01 meters. Not much more, but you will do more. The issue here is it makes it extrordinarily difficult to do meaningful trials. We did do some trials in development, but that was entirely done in specially constructed test areas where we could rigorously control the range between enemies. This process sucked we'll need to improve it for ME3.

I do understand why some fans would find a damage formula useful, the value to a more analytical player is understanding exactly what the benefits will be of investing in one bonus line over another."


They did improve this for ME3 - by removing the range to target variable they made testing/reverse engineering much easier ..

Modifié par peddroelmz, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:38 .

[GodlessPaladin]

peddroelmz wrote...

Saw your /angry rant before edit

  Edited it back in, then.  Just thought it was kinda pointless to include, which is why I edited it out before.  But yeah, hidden fundamental mechanics really tick me off, and the game actually providing serious misinformation to me about crucial mechanics drives me up the wall.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:23 .

[KyreneZA]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

However, since the Striker ramp up doesn't appear to be linear (it gained ~1.66x ROF each shot according to Grimy's data. 100*1.66=166, 166*1.66=~275), I don't expect the GPSMG would be either.

Yeah, I think I found the formula for that:
RoF Increase = (Final RoF / Begin RoF) ^ (1 / (First Shot at Final RoF - 1))

For the Striker that is: (275/100) ^ (1/2) = ~1.66
For the GPSMG that is: (1500/250) ^ (1/5) = ~1.43 or (1500/250) ^ (1/4) = ~1.57

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

EDIT

GodlessPaladin wrote...

If it follows a similarly exponential pattern, then it would ramp up from 250 (~.24 sec) to ~390 (~.15 sec) to ~610 (~.1 sec) to ~960 (~.06 sec) to 1500 (.04 sec), multiplying by a factor of ~1.565 each time (250*x^4=1500, 4th root of 6 is ~1.565)   This would result in a total of ~0.5 seconds of waste when compared to a pure 1500 ROF.  But that's just me throwing numbers off the top of my head.

Wait, are you saying it's RoF 250 for shot one and already RoF 1500 at shot 5, or that it takes 5 shots to get to 1500, therefore only 1500 as from shot 6?

Modifié par Kyrene, 06 juillet 2012 - 01:12 .

[GodlessPaladin]

With Grimy's wording it's somewhat ambiguous whether the ramp up factor is ~1.43 or ~1.565 according to his statements, since it's unclear whether he means that you achieve 1500 ROF on the 5th or 6th bullet.  Someone would have to retest to be sure.  Or ask Grimy.

Modifié par GodlessPaladin, 06 juillet 2012 - 12:57 .

[KyreneZA]

GodlessPaladin wrote...

With Grimy's wording it's somewhat ambiguous whether the ramp up factor is ~1.43 or ~1.565 according to his statements, since it's unclear whether he means that you achieve 1500 ROF on the 5th or 6th bullet.  Someone would have to retest to be sure.  Or ask Grimy.

Heh, I hate when post-edit crossposting starts happening. I read your reply too late, and agreed, and agree with your edited version too. I'll drop Grimy a PM about it and report back.

At least we now have a formula for how the RoF ramping occurs (regardless of how many shots it takes). I'll edit it again to make it a little clearer.

[GodlessPaladin]

Kyrene wrote...
At least we now have a formula for how the RoF ramping occurs (regardless of how many shots it takes).

That's assuming the GPSMG follows a similar formula to the Striker.  Grimy didn't specify. 

[peddroelm]

this is all I could find ... Not a dev post -> but private email series posted on the forums ..

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/347/index/10962607#10962607

Modifié par peddroelmz, 06 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .