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Can we all agree upon this?


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#226
Udalango

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OblivionDawn wrote...

-1.

An ending like the one in OP would cheapen the entire game. And the people who understand that shouldn't have to play sub optimally and get lower EMS just so they can get a fitting ending to the game.

It's not as easy as changing the ending. Being able to defeat the Reapers conventionally would make most of the game pointless.


Or choose another option......"I want the refuse ending to let me win if my ems is high"
You are responding with 
"Hey I like the three choices!  So you should just shh and like them too.  IF you get an ending that I DONT HAVE to choose its no fun for me"

#227
nullobject

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I'd probably pay money for this not to happen.

#228
Jadebaby

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

vivaladricas wrote...

The back of the box says 16 endings or in an ad.  Wasn;t it advertised as a choice game?  You're bolding "should"  so I am guessing you are getting at the player should not have choice in the manner you are implying the word should there?  


I'm bolding the word "should" because many people are just saying "why not?"  In a completely fictional world, we could have had pink flamingos materialize doing the macarena while shooting laser beams out of their eyes as the way the game wraps up.  So yeah, they could have done it.  I'm asking why should it?

For instance, some people have simply just stated "I play games for escapism and I loved being the hero."  That's a valid reason.  And if that's the way that person really feels, kudos to them for just telling me like it is.

Some people feel that there shouldn't be.  Some people feel that the game's definition of choice is more along the lines of "drive the narrative the way I want it to go" instead of "give me choices that have consequences, be and I'll deal with those consequences."

I'm stressing the idea: "Because something CAN be done, does that mean it SHOULD be done?"  If you think it should be done, then why?  Some have written up some very interesting responses and I enjoy reading them.

A large part of this stems from the other common threads (also mentioned here) about how BioWare could have totally made the refuse ending a happier one.  


I don't know if you saw my reply, but I was curious to hear you point of view.

#229
Torrible

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zambot wrote...

There is no doubt in my mind both Shakespeare and Nolan are superior artists, but in my opinion all this clammer for a rainbow ending has gone too far.  I know people mock Bioware for "artistic integrity", but at some point Bioware does have to draw the line.  If they feel Shepard has to make the ultimate sacrifice in their weird Synthesis ending, so be it.  If they don't want to make 16+ love interest scenes for the end of the Destroy ending because they feel they'll fail or hit the download limit, that's fine.  

Do I feel the EC was the best ending I ever played?  No.  But I do feel asking them to make a "disney ending" is going too far.  At the end of the day, this isn't a comissioned painting.  This is a game Bioware created, and it either holds up for you or it doesn't.


Well said. Completely agree. Some will stubbornly insist that it's commissioned art though.

#230
mnomaha

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Personally, I would find this to be a cheap out given the sacrifices you and others make along the way. You might as well rewrite the whole story so that Mordin lives, both of Samara's daughters live, Legion doesn't have to sacrifice himself, you get to save Koris AND his crew, etc.

On the other hand, it's not as if I have some sort of vociferous objection to a "happy" ending. It's BW's story and if for some reason they chose to add it, I wouldn't care one way or the other. I might even choose it to see the big old wedding that would presumably be a part of it.

After I started replaying ME3 from the beginning again today, I did pay attention when Hackett definitely said that we can't win the war conventionally (and that the Crucible amounts to our only hope, more or less) during the trip to Mars.

Even if you factor in gathering all the fleets of all the races...I just don't get the impression that any of it would ever be enough and find the idea that we'll be able to win to be somewhat unrealistic. With the other endings I can at least envision technological/scientific scenarios that make them acceptable.


And that's where I disagree. This is supposed to be *our* story with *our* Shepard. That's what we've always been told and, until recently, they have been true to it. ME3 changed everything that was good about the Mass Effect universe.

#231
Allan Schumacher

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Because one of the defining characteristics of Shepard--possibly the ONLY defining characteristic, given the level of player choice to his personality and beliefs--is that he can engage any foe and any problem, and fight them on his terms, compromising when it suits him,


Like Ashley and Kaiden? Earth's fleet and the Destiny's Ascension? Or even Mordin on Tuchanka? Balak or the hostages? The Alpha Relay and the Bahak System?

Shepard isn't always able to get the optimal outcome and sometimes must make actual choices that aren't exactly ideal. I'm not saying the expectation of a happier ending is silly because of my examples, but it's more just a counterpoint to the idea that Shepard is always able to make the best out of the situation even if it doesn't seem obvious or even if it seems impossible.


Because in the best stories, the timeless ones that are cherished for generations, the ones that matter to people and keep them warm when the real world goes cold and give a glimmer of light when the darkness closes in, end in such a way, realistic or not.


I don't think so. Shakespeare's most famous works tend to be his tragedies. Most people are well aware of the story of Romeo and Juliet, even if they aren't familiar with the Shakespeare version. I haven't studied literary history so I can't comment if these types of stories are more or less common, but there's no shortage of tragic stories that are considered absolute gems of literature and have been passed down for many generations.


In terms of the Mass Effect series, yes, considering it's been done since the freaking beginning.


To be perfectly blunt, if you think that the Mass Effect series must provide an unequivocally superior ending in order to maintain narrative coherence, then I think you're misusing the term narrative coherence.


Shepard dying is definitely losing.

When you invest 3 entire games and years into one character, his death is a loss


Emphatically disagree. I think it's fine that you feel this way, but I definitely do not. Even with the original endings.


Because that's what I spent three games working for. I didn't go through Mass Effect 1 and 2 disappointed because I had the option of winning with minimal casualties. I enjoyed those games because it felt like my character made the difference.

When you get right down to it, the whole idea of the Geth/Edi dying in destroy just feels forced, like they threw in killing them because otherwise it's hands down the best option. Forcing the catalyst to be unable to discriminate between the reapers and everything else will never stop feeling like a cop out.


At it's core, any decision is essentially "thrown in" because it's determined by what the content creators want to do. I actually agree that the cost is probably put in to make the choice less of an obvious choice. But does it feel forced because you just don't want it to be the case, or does it feel forced because it just doesn't make any sense.

My first interpretation of the Geth being a victim of the blast is that the blast simply targets synthetic life form. There's already issues with the crucible itself (I don't think it's a strong aspect of the story), but given it is what's there, it was easy to logically deduce why the Geth would also fall victim.

At what point does a choice become challenging and interesting compared to just feeling forced?


@Bourne Endeavor
Your post was a bit lengthy so I didn't want to quote it outright, but thanks for your response and I appreciate your insights as an author yourself.

#232
Jadebaby

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jsar72 wrote...

comrade gando wrote...

LaughingDragon wrote...

You want to know the REAL truth Allan?

Here it is.... Because that's what we are paying you for. To give us what we want. Do you think millions of fans want to spend $60 and get something they don't like? Every poll taken shows that 70-80% of more of fans thought the endings were terrible. The most die hard fans, had problems with the whole game for reasons like how prior choices RE the rachni, geth/quarian etc etc etc etc don't matter at all in ME3. Casual fans who just like to shoot guns with blue and red lights obviously don't care. 

Do you know why we all bought ME2 and ME3? Because in ME1 Shepard walks out from under that rubble against all odds and triumphs over saren and sovereign.

Why did we buy ME3? Because shepard survives the suicide mission and takes down the collectors and walks away a hero.

Why do 80% of fans hate ME3 ending? Because there's no way to WIN, there's no way for Shepard to walk away a hero. Every scenario is epic failure. Green eyed zombies...wtf dude? Controlling the reapers? Yeah no. Destroying the reapers with red lightning space magic and dying or gasping for air in the rubble fade to black? 





so much THIS. you just described perfectly how I feel. There's no way to WIN.


Double down on this!!!




All in...

Not too long, but not concise. Perfect.

#233
564REV

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I personally want this type of ending because it's always been a theme to overcome the odds in Mass Effect. May it be keeping your crew alive in ME2 or defeating Sovereign and Saren in ME1. ME3's final decisions currently lack an option where Shepard and his war assets overcome the Reapers through their own means. Obviously overcoming the Reapers without the Crucible being discharged should be a hard task though, requiring a lot of dedication or maybe even multiple playthroughs, but I'm sure the sense of achievement a player could get at the end would be worth while. It would also be nice to have the current Refusal ending be a bit longer, as of now it ends very abruptly compared to the others. But other than that I'm pretty happy with the Extended Cut and Bioware now and it's safe to say I look forward to what's in store next.

#234
wantedman dan

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Shepard dying is definitely losing.

When you invest 3 entire games and years into one character, his death is a loss


Emphatically disagree. I think it's fine that you feel this way, but I definitely do not. Even with the original endings.


So we should all be subject to that line of thought, right? That is what the current endings do.

#235
warlock22

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Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Well that's fine and good, but in mine I saw Shepard crawl out from the wreckage of Soverign like a boss, run out of the Collector Base like a boss (and with no casualties), that I naturally expected the opportunity to walk out of ME3 like a boss and with Tali nearby.

Yep. For me it would be Liara or Samara.

#236
jokey javik

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I liked the me2 endings because you could beat the collectors without losing anyone( the we lost good men line when I lost none), when I played me3 and Anderson said you can't save everyone I went ohh ... crap.

We all seem to be going in circles here I am just saying it now has anyone ever made a character support thread for the catalyst and we do have a lot of cure thane threads but realistically that probably won't happen whats done is done but if we are not vocal mass effect will be lead down a path that is not even close to what it originally was.


I believe in logic and if it wasn't for the codex biotics would be spells and wizardry to me, my memory is fuzzy but with the crucible was it just shooting in the dark hoping it would do whatever it does to the reapers well there are all those thannix cannons I could spend the alliance budget on or the crucible.

#237
OblivionDawn

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EnvyTB075 wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...
It's not as easy as changing the ending. Being able to defeat the Reapers conventionally would make most of the game pointless.


Good, the crucible was a terrible idea to start with.


That's another discussion entirely, but it's fairly obvious that the Crucible is not going to be removed from the game.

#238
LaughingDragon

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WandySilva wrote...

To me, mass effect has always been about choices and consequences, creating an ultimate happy ending would remove the consequence. Even if you have 100% completion, you're actions should have some form of repercussion. Why make a game about tough, personal morality based decisions, when the player can grind out a complete victory scenario, to me, that would be worse than the current literal endings.


DUDE.... WHAT CHOICES??

You convine the geth and quarians NOT to go to war and they do ANYWAY man.

You save the Rachni, they say they are building an army for you to PWN the machines...and then in ME3 the rachni are WORTHLESS....

You stop the reapers from coming in through the citadel, you stop the reapers from coming in through the batarian relay...and THEY STILL COME IN via epic space magics?!!! 

you save or blow up the collector base for WHAT? Theres no difference...you save the council in ME1...for nothing none of it ever matters in ME3.

There are NO choices in ME because of how ME3 plays out and ends. Everything you did for 3 games = worthless theres no pay off. There's no win.

Put down the crack pipe man we are your friends here brother

#239
DukeOfNukes

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wantedman dan wrote...

DukeOfNukes wrote...

No, absolutely not. Personally, I feel like there shouldn't be the possibility of an ending where Shepard lives happily ever after.


So we should all be subjected to what you want for your Shepard.

Yes. Isn't that what you're trying to push on other people?

I'm not saying Shepard should live or die, I'm saying too much has happened for him to have a fairy tale ending.

#240
warlock22

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Allan Schumacher wrote...


Shepard dying is definitely losing.

When you invest 3 entire games and years into one character, his death is a loss


Emphatically disagree. I think it's fine that you feel this way, but I definitely do not. Even with the original endings.

Thats fine if you feel that way, you got your ending. But 80% of your fan base didn't want Shepard to die, because we are Shepard. We wanted to be with our LI and crew in the end.

#241
The RPGenius

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Because one of the defining characteristics of Shepard--possibly the ONLY defining characteristic, given the level of player choice to his personality and beliefs--is that he can engage any foe and any problem, and fight them on his terms, compromising when it suits him,


Like Ashley and Kaiden? Earth's fleet and the Destiny's Ascension? Or even Mordin on Tuchanka? Balak or the hostages? The Alpha Relay and the Bahak System?

Shepard isn't always able to get the optimal outcome and sometimes must make actual choices that aren't exactly ideal. I'm not saying the expectation of a happier ending is silly because of my examples, but it's more just a counterpoint to the idea that Shepard is always able to make the best out of the situation even if it doesn't seem obvious or even if it seems impossible.


Sir, at the risk of being banned for saying this to a Bioware employee, I think it is childish and something of a dick move to make your rebuttal look more legitimate by leaving out the part of my argument where I address this very potential counterpoint.  The next part of the very paragraph you're quoting was,

And because one of the defining characteristics of the Mass Effect
series is that Shepard can SUCCEED at this.  Yes, he's not God, a
perfect victory is not in all situations possible, such as with
Virmire.  But it's hard to argue that these are anything but exceptions
to the rule that Shepard can refuse to bow to his opposition, and do so
successfully, in nearly every circumstance, and certainly every
galaxy-hanging-in-the-balance occasion, throughout the entire series. 
It's only this one, final part of the Mass Effect series where Shepard
is robbed of his heroic ability.


If you want to debate that point, then fine, but don't make it look like I never made the point at all just so that your counterargument looks that much more amazing.  It's disrespectful.

#242
wantedman dan

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DukeOfNukes wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

DukeOfNukes wrote...

No, absolutely not. Personally, I feel like there shouldn't be the possibility of an ending where Shepard lives happily ever after.


So we should all be subjected to what you want for your Shepard.


Yes. Isn't that what you're trying to push on other people?

I'm not saying Shepard should live or die, I'm saying too much has happened for him to have a fairy tale ending.


Have you cared to read my opinion on this, or are you trying to justify some ill-begotten sense of moral superiority of which there is no basis?

I'm saying there should be an option.

Y'know, like there was in the past two installments.

#243
OblivionDawn

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wantedman dan wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

-1.

An ending like the one in OP would cheapen the entire game. And the people who understand that shouldn't have to play sub optimally and get lower EMS just so they can get a fitting ending to the game.

It's not as easy as changing the ending. Being able to defeat the Reapers conventionally would make most of the game pointless.


Oh, like amassing the entire galactic fleet that you spent most of the game... amassing.

Right?


The purpose of amassing that fleet was to deliver the Crucible. The entire fleet is a desperate attempt to punch through the wall of Reapers and activate the one thing capable of defeating all of them.

If you take away the need for the Crucible, then you are left with a vastly outnumbered fleet that decides to Leeroy-Jenkins the enemy where they are most fortified (and that's disregarding that Reapers have taken over every other system by that point).

That kind of success in that situation is MUCH more lame than using a McGuffin.

#244
Rustedness

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Not really. At the end of a massive war, I'm not sure I want a happy bunnies ending. I mean, sure I'd love to see human-turian babies, but I don't think it would serve the story well. That's the balance, between what one wants, and what the story needs.

#245
OblivionDawn

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warlock22 wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

-1.

An ending like the one in OP would cheapen the entire game. And the people who understand that shouldn't have to play sub optimally and get lower EMS just so they can get a fitting ending to the game.

It's not as easy as changing the ending. Being able to defeat the Reapers conventionally would make most of the game pointless.

Wow so many people would disagree with you.


Doesn't matter. If you don't need the Crucible, and you spend the entire game gathering resources for the Crucible and gathering a fleet to deliver the Crucible, just so you can decide that you don't want to use it, it makes the game pointless.

Modifié par OblivionDawn, 29 juin 2012 - 05:55 .


#246
Romaka

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I have a question for you Allan.  You are part of teh Dragon Age team I believe so let ask you this in regards to Origins.

Would it have made sense at the game to have the choices we have in Mass Effect? 

Destroy = Kill the Archdemon and stop the Blight but at the cost of (insert faction and companions)

Control =  Sacrifice your being to become the new Archdemon and stop the Blight from proceeding but without the guarantee that you will eventually become corrupted and start it all over again.

Synthesis = Sacrifice yourself to end the Blight by combining all Darkspawn and Non-Darkspawn into one race with no guarantee once again of it bringing everlasting peace between the two sides and without the knowledge of anyone.

Refuse - Decide none of these options are worthwhile on moral grounds which ultimately leads to the death of everyone in Fereldan and possibly Thedas.

Would these choices fit with what happened prior in the story to this ultimate end choice?   I do not think they would.  The same applies with Mass Effect.

#247
zambot

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Really, which ending was NOT a happy ending?

1. You can stand fast for your beliefs and go out Braveheart style, and the next cycle wipes out the reapers. FREEDOM
2. You can destroy all the robots in the universe, dig yourself out of some rubble, and go have happy blue babies with your LI since she suspects correctly that you're alive via some happy mystical love connection. BLUE BABIES
3. You can become IMMORTAL
4. You can pull a Jesus and turn the entire galaxy into unicorns and rainbows where everyone lives happily ever after. MAGIC

They are all happy endings. I guess some people want a particular happy ending.

#248
warlock22

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DukeOfNukes wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

DukeOfNukes wrote...

No, absolutely not. Personally, I feel like there shouldn't be the possibility of an ending where Shepard lives happily ever after.


So we should all be subjected to what you want for your Shepard.

Yes. Isn't that what you're trying to push on other people?

I'm not saying Shepard should live or die, I'm saying too much has happened for him to have a fairy tale ending.

It wouldn't be a fair tale ending it would be a happy hopful ending. I dont need to tell you about all the things that Shepard sacrificed in ME1 and ME2 and in ME3 before the end. Not to mention all the people who have died in the war before the end.

#249
warlock22

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OblivionDawn wrote...

warlock22 wrote...

OblivionDawn wrote...

-1.

An ending like the one in OP would cheapen the entire game. And the people who understand that shouldn't have to play sub optimally and get lower EMS just so they can get a fitting ending to the game.

It's not as easy as changing the ending. Being able to defeat the Reapers conventionally would make most of the game pointless.

Wow so many people would disagree with you.


I couldn't care less.

Good :) Then you wont be botherd by all the people who disagree.B)

#250
wantedman dan

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OblivionDawn wrote...

The purpose of amassing that fleet was to deliver the Crucible. The entire fleet is a desperate attempt to punch through the wall of Reapers and activate the one thing capable of defeating all of them.

If you take away the need for the Crucible, then you are left with a vastly outnumbered fleet that decides to Leeroy-Jenkins the enemy where they are most fortified (and that's disregarding that Reapers have taken over every other system by that point).

That kind of success in that situation is MUCH more lame than using a McGuffin.


Never said it was a perfect strategy, but then again, the Reapers have never faced such a force in known cyclical-based history.