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Can we all agree upon this?


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#376
Feixeno

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HagarIshay wrote...

No, to be honest. I think it is fine as it is. Making everything have a happy ending without any cost to it is (in my personal opinion) wishfull thinking. Mixed with bad writing if BioWare went that way. A war is no disneyworld. In a war you can't have everything you want. You want the synthetics to be saved? You must sacrifice Shepard for this, as well as saving the reapers in the process. You want to save Shepard and kill the reapers? There is a cost for that. You can't have everything in a war, esspecially against an enemy as the reapers. And I believe the EC made the future look brighter.


Except billions of people are already dead. That's plenty of sacrifice.  If "sacrifice" is necessary just make Earth uninhabitable because of all the billions of tons of debris in it's orbit.

#377
warlock22

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HagarIshay wrote...

No, to be honest. I think it is fine as it is. Making everything have a happy ending without any cost to it is (in my personal opinion) wishfull thinking. Mixed with bad writing if BioWare went that way. A war is no disneyworld. In a war you can't have everything you want. You want the synthetics to be saved? You must sacrifice Shepard for this, as well as saving the reapers in the process. You want to save Shepard and kill the reapers? There is a cost for that. You can't have everything in a war, esspecially against an enemy as the reapers. And I believe the EC made the future look brighter.

True in war there will be loses. But having Shepard, LI, crew, EDI, Geth and the other races live at the end wouldn't be a disney ending concidering all we lost in the past 2 games and into 3. Billions of people dieing in ME3 and losing Mordin and Legion and other squadmates if they didn't survive is the cost. I think there shoudl be a way to win convetionally given what Shepard has done threw out the games, and this Leviathan of Dis could really help with a convetional win. A rogue reaper could give us more info on the reapers and their weakness's, it could also do what Sovereign did in ME1. Connect to the Citidel and use the Catalsyt to send a virus to the other reapers, if anything could send a virus to a reaper and have it work it would be another reaper. From what I've read about it, it killed one of its own kind, so it doesn't like the reapers for some reason. The starkid did say that the first reaper rejected its form, so this might be the first reaper maybe.

Modifié par warlock22, 29 juin 2012 - 09:42 .


#378
DMWW

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Scolai wrote...
Ending on a sad note because it's trendy to do so means Mass Effect likely won't go on to have the sort of appeal that Star Wars does.  Sure, lots of people will like it...but consider this - which ending do you think people will remember most in 10 years...Mass Effect or Return of the Jedi?  Or Avengers?  Or Lord of the Rings?


Kmead15 commented on this already, but just to stress: Lord of the Rings has a very bittersweet ending. In fact, I pointed out elsewhere that there's a remarkably close match between the ending structure of ME3 and the basic moral dilemma in LotR.

#379
warlock22

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DMWW wrote...

Scolai wrote...
Ending on a sad note because it's trendy to do so means Mass Effect likely won't go on to have the sort of appeal that Star Wars does.  Sure, lots of people will like it...but consider this - which ending do you think people will remember most in 10 years...Mass Effect or Return of the Jedi?  Or Avengers?  Or Lord of the Rings?


Kmead15 commented on this already, but just to stress: Lord of the Rings has a very bittersweet ending. In fact, I pointed out elsewhere that there's a remarkably close match between the ending structure of ME3 and the basic moral dilemma in LotR.

To me LOTR had a happy ending, but yes it was bittersweet. But it was like that becasue the story was ending, atleast to me it did. Thats why I dont know why BW went out of their way to make the ending sad and depressing or as they called it bittersweet. The fact that the story is coming to an end is bittersweet enough just like in LOTR.

#380
JamesT91

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dont have a problem with shepard dying, tragic endings are often the most beautiful
all i wanted was closure , but instead the EC doesnt give any the powerpoint at the end shows slides of the crew back where they were before they joined the fight, and the monologues all describe the universe in the same state

which means no matter what you do life essentially turns back to normal and the crew instantly move on from shepard and go back to their day jobs like nothing happened. After all shepard done the very least he deserved was a big funeral, with ALL the squad mates, a speech maybe from hacket, tears form LI and a statue in his honour

admittedly it would be a very cliched ending, but it would be an ending that shepard deserves, makes sense, brings story to a satisfying ending and would be very fitting, shepard helped every single species in existence so it only makes sense for there to me mass mourning
 

Modifié par JamesT91, 29 juin 2012 - 09:52 .


#381
Reofeir

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riesenwiesel wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

If they had of shown Shepard reunion with LI that would be happy ending with sacrfice.... You obviously never cared about Shepard's self-preservation anyway.


LI refuse to put the name on the wall. S/he feels that Shepard is out there somewhere. A second later, we see Shepard breathing. I think it's enough to tell us Shepard and LI will reunite. You just have to fill in the gaps. Specualtions are not ALWAYS so bad.

Not always but in this case. The target of ME3 and especially the EC provide closure to the story of Shepard. So why to leave room for speculations or headcanon here and why "only" in this ending scenario? Why stay one step/picture away from final closure if that was the target?

Well, that isn't fully true. There is room for speculation for Shepard himself in control as well. One does not know if he becomes corupt or stays true to his word or what not after becoming the Reaper God.  Synthesis ends shepard out right the second he jumps into the beam. Reject you can "speculate" how and what happend at the last moments but we all know he died. Destroy and Control are the only ones that leave Shepard open for speculation.

I will be honest here. I think of there was a reunion scene, it would be nice but I wouldn't want it to drag out really. The way it ended was a nice nod and let you be able to think on how it happend. Who knows, maybe my perfect "reunion" scene is different from yours. This allows us to think about it in our own way. The ending allows us to be able to do so without thinking of the worst (unless you want that ;)).

#382
Xa1u5

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Can we all agree upon this?

No, I can't. This is not fairytale storytelling. With all the sacrifices and deaths, and the tragic ending I chose, I think the chance of this story ever ending with "And they lived happily ever after...." is quite nonexistent.

#383
Tirranek

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ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 


Frankly, no. In a story that's about a giant galactic war claiming billions of lives, having the central cast have a fairytale ending is massively inconsistent and basically subscribes to the 'But I don't know who those billions were, so I don't care' kind of mentality.

#384
Feixeno

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Tirranek wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 


Frankly, no. In a story that's about a giant galactic war claiming billions of lives, having the central cast have a fairytale ending is massively inconsistent and basically subscribes to the 'But I don't know who those billions were, so I don't care' kind of mentality.


30,000 children are going to die today from preventable causes. You probably care about that. I care about that. You and I probably have empathy. But what are we going to actually do about it today? Nothing, because they're faceless. It's just an unfortunate aspect of human nature that we don't try as hard or have less sympathy with someone or something we don't have an immediate empathic connection with.

I don't think a Refusal ending where lots of people die, but the Reapers are defeated is inconsistent with the series. If you play a Paragon Shepard, it's pretty consistent with the heroic figure that Shepard represents.

Modifié par Feixeno, 29 juin 2012 - 09:58 .


#385
Byronic-Knight

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After playing through the latest Max Payne---where (*spoilers*) Max gets framed for the murder of his employer, sees one being lit on fire, is betrayed by almost everyone he comes into contact with, manages to track down the bastards that framed him, shove grenades up their asses, and is drinking a beer on a beach in the final scene---I think the exclusion of, and in some cases opposition to, a happy ending similar to what the OP proposes is a tad bit absurd.

#386
Delaney

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ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 


Not exactly this but ... Why not giving us at least an option (which is hard to get - high EMS etc.) for a happy end where it is EXPLICITLY shown that  at least Shepard lives and is reunited with his LI and crew ... Hm? ME1 had an explicit happy end ... Everybody was happy. ME2 had an explicit happy end or the option for an explicit happy end ... Everybody was happy with it and nobody complained that it was too obvious and that they would have prefered to figure it out by themselves ... Well ... Just my 2 cents, you know. Image IPB

#387
withneelandi

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Allan Schumacher wrote...


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.


I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.


I don't think the lack of a text book "happy ending" is an issue as such.

I think there is value in telling a story in a game which ends by presenting 4 options to the player none of which is obviously the "good" ending and asks them to make a choice.

The issue I think with Mass Effect 3, was that you have taken the player on a journey over 3 games prompting them to make choices, choose to be a paragon or a renegade, save the council or the fleet, cure or don't cure the genophage, save the rachni or don't. These are choices which should have had huge implications but the reality is that regardless of how you play the game the choices you are presented with don't change on the sort of level that seems to match the magnitude of the choices.

You can go through all 3 games trying to do the best you can for the galaxy or go through the games trying to make the worst possible choices and in the end you will still end up in the same room, with pretty much the same options and consequences and as a player that doesn't feel massively satisfying (actually its more a case of how many side quests you do or how much multiplayer you play) .

The mass effect trilogy would have been a far more satisfying experience for me as a player and 3 would have had for more replay value as a single player game if I knew that there were choices that I could have made to limit the negative consequences of the destroy ending or provide a slightly more positive or even negative reject ending. This doesn't have to mean an "everybody lives" and blue babies for all ending. I think it might have been good to have an ending where depending on how you play the Geth Quarian crisis a quarian scientist is able to save some of the geth. Not all, some. Or a situation where the player has just been an intergalatic screw up and killeed companions, pissed everone off ect leading to a reject ending where the cycles continue and Liara's beacon is no help.

#388
MysticSpace

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ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 

Absolutely not...Garrus and I are going to book a suite at the Azure! Oh right, yes to that other stuff definetely. 

#389
Ageless Face

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@Feixeno, @Warlock22

Those were no sacrifices. those were casualties . Yes, there is a difference. In wars, you usually have both casualties , and you will need something to sacrifice. What you are asking for, is not having a sacrifice.

#390
LKx

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Nope, i think that they should have done this (but i don't care much, i've a color. However this would have been epic):

- Shepard reject the catalyst's options
- Shepard tell Hackett about the catalyst's nature (at least it would be knowledge for future cycles), and call in a nuke to the Citadel core
- The Citadel, and the Catalyst with it, gets destroyed, the reapers lose their controller, Shepard dies. Cofused they keep their prime directive, but they are less coordinated. Some reapers go rogue and just try to destroy everything on their path, some other acquire the self-knowledge of their races and either allow the alliance to destroy them or flee away.
- Reapers suffer heavy casualties, due the confusion, but, eventually, they manage to win this cicle (but with some survivors around), and most of them follow their prime directive to go back to sleep for another 50 thousands years.
- Next cycle, are aware of the threat due the Liara's probes (and maybe some other survivors' data around), and manage to destroy conventionally the new reaper's less coordinated assault

Modifié par LKx, 29 juin 2012 - 10:27 .


#391
MoZedK

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Well op. I dont need that ending. Well the problem here is mutch bigger for me. I have sayed it many times now.
You cant change the Genre and the Centrale confilct in the last minutes of the game.

And if you do like they are doing, you shouldent make so maaaany holes. There is simply put no narritive cohrence anymore. Bronken ending.

#392
Zaxares

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ph34r-X wrote...
Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.


I don't mind the Catalyst and the Crucible being needed to win the war. I can already rationalise that EDI and the geth can be rebuilt after a Destroy ending, but it would be nice to see EDI as part of the Normandy crew afterwards.

#393
RPC_RPC

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.


I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.


I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.


It would create some purpose for gathering the war assets. Currently they have very little purpose (except you get breathing thing). Give some motivation to do the otherwise very boring fetching quests.

#394
WarBaby2

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That should be an option for reject to turn out IF your EMS is high enough... yup.

I mean, it's BWs own fault for putting the 4th option in the game, now it gotta make sense!

Modifié par WarBaby2, 29 juin 2012 - 10:38 .


#395
AlienSpaceBats

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Nah, I'm fine with the EC.
I think some people just want a Mass Effect Second Life.

#396
playoff52

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.


I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.


I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.


Itemized list of replies for ease of digestion.


To begin with, This is a game for the players, not the devs. You spend 3 games around the same character, people build up a connection to that character. A similar example is the master chief from the halo series. Bungie knew well enough not to actually kill the chief off. He just went into stasis to wait things out. They could have easily just killed him, but abstained from it because it would have caused a lot of outrage. Don't smack your players in the face for your own sense of feeling like a philosopher. Not if you expect to continue to enjoy good sales and a good reputation.

Second, Until the last few minutes of the game, it was ALL about destroying reapers. It went so far out of it's way to negate and downplay the notion of control with indoctrination and the failures of Saren and TIM that providing suddenly via crap DEM was just terrible story telling. Showing Sheppard knocking over multiple reapers through out the franchise only to have this as the "best hope" is just lazy. EIther make it a big space gun or don't. But the whole "Oh yea, TIM had a point but...he couldn't do it cause we didn't want him to." and Synthesis is just...ugh don't even get me started there.

The Geth and Edi? Again, we worked hard (in some cases, others may have not) to cultivate those into the mentality of valueing organic life and coopreration. The fact that most players had a Geth fleet there helping them should have made the Catalyst stop and go "hmm..." The entire arguement it present Shepard was blown out the air lock by THE MASSIVE SYNTHETIC ARMY FIGHTING ALONGSIDE ALL LIFE. Fail logic, is fail. But I understand that's the corner you guys backed yourselves into by relying on another crap DEM that was introduced minutes from the conclusion of the series.

Shepard walking off into the sunset with his LI? Why not? I'd say he's earned it for saving the galaxy 3 times over and giving up so much. What person wouldn't deserve a quiet retirement after battling all that? To do otherwise is just spiteful treatment for the sake of trying to look classy or complex. Again, you're smacking you're players in the face by contradicting this. Furthermore, failing to present anything close to this via the Shepard lives scenario is just another failure for trying to take a lazy "artistic" stance by leaving speculation. STOP that. No one likes it. Take the hint. Tell the story, and stop beating around the bush. No one came here to get an idea and sit around think about it. They came to be entertained. Start the story, continue the story and end the story.

Omission of details has already cost you dearly in both reputation and potential future sales. Stop risking things further. Provide the closure, present the story and do it with the quality you know you guys bring to the table.

#397
DMWW

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playoff52 wrote...

 Furthermore, failing to present anything close to this via the Shepard lives scenario is just another failure for trying to take a lazy "artistic" stance by leaving speculation. STOP that. No one likes it.

I liked it.

Take the hint. Tell the story, and stop beating around the bush. No one came here to get an idea and sit around think about it.


I did.

#398
GreenFlag

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ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 


hmm... if in ME series will be always good ending, soon will be from Shepard second Chuck Norris, do you really want that?

#399
crimzontearz

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why Allan? Quite simply because after many years of emotional investment having no real payoff seems a little low don't you think? Yeah I am an escapist, yeah I love to have more sweet and less goddamn bitter in my ending because life sucks and if I wanted to be reminded of the unfairness of life I would turn the news on. Have you played GoW? perfect balance....Dom died but everyone else is alive but Marcus is alive and so is Anya. Halo 3? Chief and Cortana live (and are coming back). Do you want something closer to home? DAO? Dark Ritual ending....perfect balance. And look, apparently a lot of people think the same. I am one of those nut jobs who finished ME1&2 20 times a piece with the same character and I cannot bring myself to replay ME3 more than twice which I find maddening. Is that what Bioware wanted? To make me question if it is wise to ever emotionally invest in their games? To make me NOT want to buy any single player DLC because it all feels pointless now?

#400
liggy002

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You're too immature to handle the ending.  YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH. 



...... just kidding.