1199 réponses à ce sujet

[KingZayd]

No. I want plotholes to be gone. I don't care about the happy endings thing.

A conventional victory is difficult enough. A conventional victory without losing any friends is even tougher. I would go as far to say that as long as you don't mind it not finishing so quickly on Earth, then yes that would be okay.

But saving the Earth, the galaxy and your friends all in one conventional battle would be ridiculous.

Personally I think it should have been like the start of the one of those epic galactic struggles we've heard of.

Krogan Rebellion lasted decades.
Rachni Wars lasted 300 years.

First Contact War lasted 3 months.

Surely the Reaper war should be more like the first 2?

You know what? I would have liked it if Shepard is the one who gave us hope. And then we played as an Asari/a Krogan (long lifespan), in the sequel (s) as we purge the Reapers from the galaxy.

Modifié par KingZayd, 29 juin 2012 - 03:48 .

[KeraWildmane]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

Because it would be a satisfying, happy ending. We would still have had to pay a high price for our victory, but the cost would not have been our soul and we'd actually win. In all the current endings we lose and in three of the four the Reapers win. Players should be rewarded for rejecting the logic of the monsters known as Reapers, not punished.

Modifié par Kerasth, 29 juin 2012 - 03:44 .

[wantedman dan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

Umm, because it is narratively cohesive? I mean, come on, Allan, I respect you, but that question shouldn't even need to be asked.

It should be in the ending because self-determination and the impact of our choices have always been key themes of the Mass Effect series. Why should the trilogy-capper be any different?

[shurikenmanta]

No, I don't want that.

Firstly, my Shep is single, and if you guys get special attention, I want it too. I want a casino scene with Shepard and his homies getting wicked drunk.

Secondly, a conventional victory should not be possible unless you have, say, 500000 EMS. That's the least you would need to get on military parity with the Reapers.

Thirdly, I want to turn Traynor bi.

[Malanek]

If you have one choice where everything is perfect it stops from even being a decision. As it stands there were pros and cons with all the last 4 choices. As gamers we often ask for tough decisions and moan when there is a easy option. The way of healing Connor in DA is a perfect example of what not to do. Why even offer a choice if that is what you are going to do?

[goatman42]

Sure I would like a perfect happy ending. But honestly that doesn't really fit with Mass Effect in my opinion.

[kuoleman]

My opinion: Because life is hard enough, gaming is a form of escapism. Sometimes I really DO want to beat the odds and feel invincible. The entire series to me was about choices... which I have to applaud for the concept in the first place (LOVE)... to not be able to CHOOSE a happy ending, saddens me greatly. I'll get over it. EC helps me be able to replay the trilogy again, without be thoroughly depressed. But I would've really liked to have at least one Shepard walk away feeling AWESOME and reunite with LI to wedding bells, baby cries, promotions... blah, blah, blah HAPPILY EVER AFTER
ps But I also know better to expect a happy ending from any Bioware game, no offense. That's why I love 'em, always make me emotional.

[WhereEternityEnds]

There should be an ending like that because all of the other four would turn even the most ardent optimist into a depressed cutter. Barring the fact that all four choices you are given are neither appealing or satisfying, there should always be an option to actually have your character be a hero....you know, rather than a massive hypocrite. And guess what? Synthesis, Control, and Destroy all turn Shepard from a powerful force of heroic unity into a gigantic tool. A tool of a child god AI....thing.


And maybe I'll respond to your question with another question. Why do you believe that the Destroy ending should just END at Shepard INHALING? If you're gonna have Shepard survive, put some closure into it. People keep saying there are too many "Disney" endings...when in fact, it's been the exact goddamned opposite. I can't remember the last game I played that actually had a "Disney" ending. I think it was in the PS2 generation or something.....

[WhereEternityEnds]

goatman42 wrote...

Sure I would like a perfect happy ending. But honestly that doesn't really fit with Mass Effect in my opinion.

You know what else didn't fit with Mass Effect though? 

THE ACTUAL ENDINGS WE GOT

[D24O]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

The reason I would say we should have a shot at some measure of conventional victory, albiet with heavy loss (maybe even squadmates based on Ground EMS or something) is that it would play into some of the more hopeful themes that were, in my interpertation, at the fore of the story before the end.
Allowing the galaxy to win on its own terms would epitomise the themse of hope, defiance, sticking to ones morals, and unity overcoming greta obstacles. I think that these themes, which were important in the trilogy would stay very important with an "on the galaxy's terms" victory. I feel it ties in well thematically and tonally with the rest of the trilogy, helping repair some of the thematic dissonance many fans felt, and would do a great deal to steer the story away from turning into a nhilistic, depressing story that it would be if we weren't allowed to win on terms, this cycle or next.
 

[Drudez]

A conventional victory should be possible with enormous amounts of EMS. During ME1 sovereign was taken down with overpowering force, I can't see why other reapers can't be taken down in the same method. Even if we get everything the OP is asking for and our protagonist gets his/her happy ending, its not a happy ending for the rest of the galaxy seeing as the casualties for defeating the reapers conventionally would be extremely high.

[iSpider-Man]

wantedman dan wrote... 

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way. 

 Umm, because it is narratively cohesive? I mean, come on, Allan, I respect you, but that question shouldn't even need to be asked. It should be in the ending because self-determination and the impact of our choices have always been key themes of the Mass Effect series. Why should the trilogy-capper be any different? 

Exactly.

[wantedman dan]

goatman42 wrote...

Sure I would like a perfect happy ending. But honestly that doesn't really fit with Mass Effect in my opinion.

Key thing, here. It may not be appropriate for your canon.

The same cannot be said for mine.

[Jonathan Sud]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

This should be an option for those who made the effort to attain as many war assets as they could get. Those who went system to system searching for artifacts, people, etc and whatnot should be rewarded for doing so.

[WhereEternityEnds]

kuoleman wrote...

My opinion: Because life is hard enough, gaming is a form of escapism. Sometimes I really DO want to beat the odds and feel invincible. The entire series to me was about choices... which I have to applaud for the concept in the first place (LOVE)... to not be able to CHOOSE a happy ending, saddens me greatly. I'll get over it. EC helps me be able to replay the trilogy again, without be thoroughly depressed. But I would've really liked to have at least one Shepard walk away feeling AWESOME and reunite with LI to wedding bells, baby cries, promotions... blah, blah, blah HAPPILY EVER AFTER
ps But I also know better to expect a happy ending from any Bioware game, no offense. That's why I love 'em, always make me emotional.

Exactly.  When I play a game like Mass Effect 3, I want to feel like a goddamned hero!  Not....Shinji from NGE.   I shudder to actually use such a comparison but I have had it with these Gainax endings...I really have....

[wantedman dan]

Drudez wrote...

A conventional victory should be possible with enormous amounts of EMS. During ME1 sovereign was taken down with overpowering force, I can't see why other reapers can't be taken down in the same method. Even if we get everything the OP is asking for and our protagonist gets his/her happy ending, its not a happy ending for the rest of the galaxy seeing as the casualties for defeating the reapers conventionally would be extremely high.

They would die completely honorable and justified deaths and posterity would look back at this ultimate sacrifice with pride.

[Sulious Vandomar]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).

I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

I think it would feel like a reward for all your hard work gathering allies over the course of three games. I feel like Shepard's response to the Starchild in the refusal option is most in line with my version of the character. 

The entire trilogy, everyone is telling him he can't defeat the Reapers on his own terms. TIM is saying he can't do it and should control them instead. Saren wants to cut a deal. Harbinger tells him to give up. And through all of it, Shepard refuses to give in to fear and impossible odds. 

... and suddenly at the end he just caves with these three arbitrary options? It feels contrived and out of character. I feel like a major theme in these games is overcoming impossible odds through the strength of diversity. If you embrace that and get a really high EMS (say, oh, 3500), you should be able to take the Reapers out I feel. With heavy losses of course, but you would do it on your own terms and not by some AI's flawed design. If not, then I think the EMS system feel redundent. I'm aware of it's impact on the final choices, but that simply isn't enough payoff in my eyes. Similarly, seeing the war assets in action would give that same sense of pay off. 

I appreciate the refusal ending as it is, but having a more positive outcome for high EMS would keep the series in tact. As it stands, I feel like Shepard's unwillingness to give into hopelessness is just tossed aside for the hell of it. You refuted everyone's pessimism regarding the Reapers for three games. And now suddenly that option is garbage? It doesn't feel like it's part of the same series. 

I appreciate your inquiry, Allan, as I do your opinions.  

Modifié par Sulious Vandomar, 29 juin 2012 - 03:55 .

[Zero132132]

That just sounds dumb to me. If the Reapers can be defeated conventionally, the entire plot to ME3 is a big, pointless mislead.

[comrade gando]

I dont need to be reminded life sucks. Mass effect lets me be the hero I wish I could be. Why do I have to get forced into an at best bittersweet outcome (destroy), freakish cyber utopia (synthesis), ascension to a higher existence and become a reaper (control), or SO BE IT (that doesn't need explaining lol).

Why do all these endings still suck, you know what I want bioware. Let me reunite with the love interest so I can feel good about playing this game again. The crucible and catalyst make no sense and are very anti-climactic but I can let it slide if you let me get with Tali .

that's one of the reasons why I hate EC and why I refuse to play Mass Effect or buy any dlc until it's fixed.

[Hey]

We all want different things. One wants blue babies and the other courvoisier and stippers. Me personally I want to disappear with Liara... Hard to please us all.

At least I felt like they should have changed the Shepard breathes to Shepard wakes up in a hospital bed > queue the faunts..

[wantedman dan]

Zero132132 wrote...

That just sounds dumb to me. If the Reapers can be defeated conventionally, the entire plot to ME3 is a big, pointless mislead.

Got most of that right.

And furthermore, why is it pointless? You've amassed the largest fleet in known galactic history. You've done the impossible twice: curing the Genophage and ending the Quarian/Geth conflict. Why could it not have been an intention all along?

Modifié par wantedman dan, 29 juin 2012 - 03:56 .

[WhereEternityEnds]

Zero132132 wrote...

That just sounds dumb to me. If the Reapers can be defeated conventionally, the entire plot to ME3 is a big, pointless mislead.

Conventional defeat would have been a thousand times preferable to what we got.  Then it would have actually fit with the trilogy's overall "tone." 

The tone of the last 10 minutes of Mass Effect 3 though....Ugh. 

[FlyinElk212]

To answer your question Allan its due to game developer perception of Mass Effect 3 vs Game player perception of Mass Effect 3.

Whereas a developer may see a situation like the outcome of Refusal one way, a player may see it another. The developer creates ME3 from scratch and therefore has a creationist perception of how the world in ME3 should work. They're certainly attempting to assuage their audiences, but certain reservations as to ending outcomes will inevitably be there.

On the flipside, players view ME3 as an experience created by someone else in which they've invested a butt-ton of their time to. They want a feeling of satisfaction equivalent to the amount of time they've dedicated to someone else's creation. They want their invested time and actions to influence the ending, and not simply a developer's perception of what should happen.

The EC worked towards a compromising middle ground by providing the refusal option, but once again exhibited the creators perception of what a refusal option should be like, instead of allowing players dedicated work and invested time to influence it. Hence the player outcry.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 29 juin 2012 - 03:56 .