1199 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

I can see Allan's point against a definite happy refusal ending. It degrades the other choices that are more morally ambiguous by setting up a definite best case scenario. Just including that would be a mistake IMO.
I also think the refusal ending as it is would have worked perfectly with the original cut. In fact, it was exactly what I was asking for before the EC.
However, it does not work anymore with the EC because the EC inverts the situation. Now we have three scenarios that can all be seen as best possible outcomes, no matter which one of the morally ambiguous choices you take. This was not clear in the original cut. Back then we did not know whether or not our choice would work. Maybe it would utterly ruin the galaxy. Control and synthesis definitely had the potential to do so and destroy, although it is probably the safest option had the strong stigma of genocide lying heavily on our conscience. To refuse and to leave it to the next cycle might have been the best option.
Now we know the outcome of all choices. Control and Synthesis are both shiny and bright futures and while destroy still entails genocide, this fact is now neatly swept under the carpet in the epilogue, in the light of a celebrating victorious galaxy.
This loss of retrospective ambiguity invalidates the refusal option because it is the only way to actually loose (in fact, the sequence should play now whenever Shep just dies during gameplay after Liara finished the time capsules). It makes us look foolish in light of we could have accomplished.
BioWare did not stick to their original artistic vision with the EC. As we all know, for the original , "speculation for everyone" was intentionally a big part. Since this aspect of the endings was replaced by clarity, the refusal option looses its impact and further degrades the themes of hope, courage and willpower that were integral to Mass Effect for 2.9 games before the last 10 minutes.
Had they kept the original cut and just put in the refusal ending, it might have worked to some extent at least. With the new cut, it was rendered irrelevant.
It's a shame BW didn't see how the interaction between small changes can affect the whole.

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

My own thoughts: 

Shepard Lives:  I know it's not a universal trope, but it's generally a staple that when a hero succeeds at a task, he/she lives to tell about it.  We've had two games now where Shepard triumphs over odds others think are crazy to attempt.  Simply as a matter of symmetry, it shouldn't be considered unreasonable for Shepard to be able to survive in some endings (real survival, not broken amidst a pile of rubble, largely forgotten by any nearby allies)

Reapers defeated by conventional means:  this, I think comes from the fact that the crucible's options in a word, suck.  In addition to generally being a Suicide Machine (see above)  all the options force Shepard to compromise to some degree.  Red, Green, and Blue are all too grey for many people's taste (see what I did there?)  A "conventional" victory would be more of Shepard's victory over the Reapers than the Reapers letting Shepard win of only you make a particular choice

Geth/EDI lives:  This is a sub-category of above.  Geth and EDI are the "sacrifice" for the Red Ending.   And it's a horrible choice for many.  To me, it's not so much that they die, but because it's Shepard that pulls the trigger on them.  They don't die heroically, walking into certain death, counting their lives worth the price for victory.  They die by Shepard's hand, with them unaware of what's happening.  The ultimate Friendly FIre.

Shepard walks off into the sunset with LI:  Let's face it, everyone want s a love story to have a happy ending.  And some of these romances have spanned the entire trilogy.  

Modifié par iakus, 29 juin 2012 - 04:13 .

[EnvyTB075]

Tie it into EMS, make people earn it, and yes, that would be fitting.

[saracen16]

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

goatman42 wrote...

Sure I would like a perfect happy ending. But honestly that doesn't really fit with Mass Effect in my opinion.

You know what else didn't fit with Mass Effect though? 

THE ACTUAL ENDINGS WE GOT

That's your opinion. I felt that they fit with Mass Effect quite well.

[KeraWildmane]

vivaladricas wrote...

Udalango wrote...


It kind of reminded me of DBZ.  "Ungodly power come in and kicks the snot of all the super heros until the end when Goku reaches a new unheard of level of power through plot armor"  except SS4 is easier to swallow then Star Brat

Yeah I recall that.  To me the reapers were so built up they belonged in that kind of story, they just dont work here.  Can we get a whole fracnhise remake with different writers maybe???  I'll chip in.  

I'll help.

[wantedman dan]

saracen16 wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

goatman42 wrote...

Sure I would like a perfect happy ending. But honestly that doesn't really fit with Mass Effect in my opinion.

You know what else didn't fit with Mass Effect though? 

THE ACTUAL ENDINGS WE GOT

That's your opinion. I felt that they fit with Mass Effect quite well.

So we should all be subjected to what works for your Shepard, and that only... right?

[Udalango]

vivaladricas wrote...

Udalango wrote...


It kind of reminded me of DBZ.  "Ungodly power come in and kicks the snot of all the super heros until the end when Goku reaches a new unheard of level of power through plot armor"  except SS4 is easier to swallow then Star Brat

Yeah I recall that.  To me the reapers were so built up they belonged in that kind of story, they just dont work here.  Can we get a whole fracnhise remake with different writers maybe???  I'll chip in.  

Not even that.  Just change the numbers.  I mean seeing them in ME2 was an awesome "Oh SH*T" moment.  But the numbers make it ridiculous to think there wouldnt be some sort of dues ex machina going on

[Bterr]

This is absurd. It doesn't matter what ending anybody wants, beyond the people who created the game. Your wallet and/or desires don't dictate what plot you'll receive. Forcing companies to conform to your uber-cliche ending hurts originality in a game market that is getting more and more repetitive and narrow minded.

Whether or not the ending is good is entirely irrelevant. Enjoy your gaming experience and move on. Whatever ending they gave you initially is the only genuine one anyway.

[Jadebaby]

wantedman dan wrote...

I want this to be an option.

[DukeOfNukes]

No, absolutely not. Personally, I feel like there shouldn't be the possibility of an ending where Shepard lives happily ever after.

[wantedman dan]

DukeOfNukes wrote...

No, absolutely not. Personally, I feel like there shouldn't be the possibility of an ending where Shepard lives happily ever after.

So we should all be subjected to what you want for your Shepard.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).

I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).

Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

I think one of the reasons that people want this as an option is that the story itself didn't do enough to establish that this wasn't possible. The limitations of the current endings feel like they were imposed from the outside, rather than emerging naturally from things we learn throughout the game.

Now, I don't have strong feelings about the "defeated by conventional means" part of this equation. I don't care how unconventional the means with which we defeat them are. For instance, if we had a synthesis beam that worked only on the Reapers, made them all empathetic and helpful (like they are in the green ending) and that's how we won, I'd be fine with that. The thing is... having that happen would make just as much sense as any of the other endings, because the endings as they are aren't logical results of established plot points. There's no reason the Red beam kills all synthetics while the blue beam only controls the reapers and the green beam affects not just synthetics or reapers but every existing thing in the galaxy. It could be the opposite, with the red beam killing every living organism and the green beam affecting only the reapers, because what each device does feels like it was chosen arbitrarily.

At the end of DA:O, I didn't feel like there should be a way for my Dalish warden to clean herself of the Warden taint, marry King Alistair, and live happily ever after. I knew it was impossible for an elf of any kind to be accepted as queen because of racism that was already established in game. So the "can't have it all" ending made perfect sense and I never would have requested an ending to DA:O where anyone other than a Cousland could marry King Alistair, because that would make zero sense. It also made sense that someone had to die (or you had to DR) to kill the Dragon. All this stuff was thoroughly established throughout the story, and seemed to emerge rationally from the rules of the universe. Thus I loved all of my bittersweet DA:O endings - from the Mahariel who made unhardened Alistair king and did the Dark Ritual, to the Mage who made Alistair hate her by letting Loghain be a warden, culminating with the Aeducan who died herself. All these things made sense and felt right, because if felt like the circumstances that made these sacrifices necessary were established throughout the story.

Some people say that Mass Effect has always been a story about "hard choices," but that's not... precisely true. It's been a story about the value of trust and optimism vs the security of hard-ass pragmatism. There has not been a single choice anywhere in the Mass Effect universe where I really felt that I had nothing available but horrible options - where, no matter what choice I made, the universe would be worse off than when I started, or my Shepard would be irreperably damaged. I expected my choices based on trust and optimism to horribly backfire, and they never did.

"Oh. This is a story about Trust, and optimism!" I thought. "Neat. It's been years since I've played a video game that wasn't about cynicism and despair and justifiable atrocities. It's really cool to see a story told that is mature and thought-provoking without forcing you to embrace the mercenary amoral values that you get in something like Grand Theft Auto." 

So I kept playing, and hope, honor, and positive thinking kept not horribly screwing me over. For the first time in a decade, someone had created a work of art where it was possible to have the hero actually be a good person - an aspirational figure.

I mean yes, it was equally possible to be a total racist sociopath, and I have a Shepard of that variety too. She's pleased as punch with the Destroy ending: it validates her woldview that compassion is for the week, and that every life form in the universe is merely here plaything, to be sacrificed on a whim if it might benefit her.

But back to my main point: I have never, ever, in my video game life, gotten to play a character who embodied hope, compassion, free will, and understanding as much as Commander Jane Shepard did. I've never seen a game reward compassion, tolerance, and hope as consistently as the Mass Effect universe did. I've never found a world so well written that it could produce a perfecly in-character sociopath and a genuinely good human being.

But at the end, only the sociopath could actually win the game and live. The endings proved that her worldview was right, and the worldview of the hopeful, compassionate humanitarian was wrong.

My favorite part of Mass Effect was the dichotomy - the way I could play shepard anywhere on the scale of good and evil, hope and cynicism, compassion and cruelty, and I could still win. In the end, only evil, cruelty, and cynicism can produce a win condition... and that's sad.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 juin 2012 - 04:20 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I say because the game can go nuts on different endings. SO many little changes that people would have to youtube a lot to see many little things that change cause of peoples choices over the trilogy. They consistatny said it was the end of Shep's story, so have at it for whatever the player wants. Happy, Sad, Medium and variants in between, people would find something to complain about but I think you have an 80/20 "it was awesome" instead of the meh and its horrible now.

So it should allow variation because it's the end of Shepard's story, so we should let the players wrap it up however they see fit?

You mention that the game is set up to have a variety of options for endings. I think there could be a lot more endings without actually having an ending that involves: "Shepard Lives, reapers defeated conventionally, Geth/EDI live, and Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest."  So there must be more to it than simply the number of available endings.

Because it would be a satisfying, happy ending. We would still have had to pay a high price for our victory, but the cost would not have been our soul and we'd actually win. In all the current endings we lose and in three of the four the Reapers win. Players should be rewarded for rejecting the logic of the monsters known as Reapers, not punished.

Just to be clear, you seem to be equating losing simply with whether or not Shepard survives? Am I correct in understanding this. What does it take to "win" this conflict then? Is the only "winning" condition one that has Shepard living, reapers defeated conventionally, Geth/EDI living, and Shepard walking off with love interest?

Umm, because it is narratively cohesive? I mean, come on, Allan, I respect you, but that question shouldn't even need to be asked.

It should be in the ending because self-determination and the impact of our choices have always been key themes of the Mass Effect series. Why should the trilogy-capper be any different?

Narrative coherence requires a happy ending where Shepard lives, the reapers are defeated conventionally, Geth/EDI lives, with Shepard walking off into the sunset?

If there was an ending that didn't involve the Catalyst, you do not feel it could have maintained narrative coherence without those elements? The ending must have a happy choice?


Why should self-determination require any of those elements? Is narrative coherence not maintained with the ultimate Pyrrhic Victory, where the Reapers are killed (conventionally or otherwise) but this current cycle is so devastated that they're effectively wiped out as well? And ending like this contains none of the elements that are mentioned. How is it an example of a lack of narrative cohesion? It certainly contains an element of self-determination and there's a definite impact to that particular choice.

Even with the current endings, why is narrative cohesion not upheld with, at the very least, the destroy and the refusal endings. Both allow for self-determination (in one case that self-determination isn't enough, but it's still an example of self-determination). Both cases require players to assess the impact of their choices.

So why should have a decidedly happy ending, if the requirements for narrative cohesion are self determination and the impact of your choices.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 29 juin 2012 - 04:18 .

[G Kevin]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

I would say so that in the end of the day, people can beat Mass Effect 3 feeling like a hero and all is well. Destroy brings that to me now, but why not go for the perfect ending? It is a game after all, the choice is nice.

Modifié par G Kevin, 29 juin 2012 - 04:18 .

[lordofdogtown19]

 I would have liked it but it didn't and wont happen

 

[Jadebaby]

saracen16 wrote...

WhereEternityEnds wrote...

goatman42 wrote...

Sure I would like a perfect happy ending. But honestly that doesn't really fit with Mass Effect in my opinion.

You know what else didn't fit with Mass Effect though? 

THE ACTUAL ENDINGS WE GOT

That's your opinion. I felt that they fit with Mass Effect quite well.

There have been MANY blogs, polls and threads on these forums and beyond intelligently detailing exactly why the endings don't fit into the Mass Effect universe and lore, maybe you should look around,  you might be enlightened.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm going to be brutally honest here. I don't think it's possible for a conventional victory given the way the story was written. Why?

1) If you look at where the reapers were in Dark Space at the end of ME2 it looked like around 100,000 ly away from the galactic disk.

2) According to the Codex Reaper ships travel at 30 LY/day in FTL.

3) If they were not building a human reaper to open the Citadel again with the Geth heretics and the Collectors what were they doing in ME2?

4) At 30 ly/day it would take nearly 10 years to reach the Alpha Relay.

5) If the Council had IQs over 80, just from the wreakage of Sovereign they should have known it wasn't Geth. They should have started preparing. Or if not the Alliance Military at least reaper threat seriously and started preparing on its own, it would have triggered an arms race which would have gotten the galaxy better prepared. Especially over the course of 9-10 years.

At that point, we might have seen galactic readiness around 90%-100% and EMS around >10,000 at the start of ME3. The Batarians still may have fallen, but the Council races? The reapers might actually have been getting butthurt in some areas.

[ChuckieJ]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

There didn't need to be a final choice or such different endings. We've made so many choices over the 3 games and they all culminated in.... what? A weird twist that makes no sense. 

The only excuse I can see is that for the next game, the ME team needs jumping off points, ala Spacer, Colonist, War Hero. But the 4 endings are so disparate that even that is impossible. How could the ME team go on to make a sequel when either destroy, synthesis, control, or reject are all possible? They can't so if a sequel ever is created, a "true" ending will need to be chosen.

Indoctrination Theory (IT) gave them an out but they didn't take it (as best I can tell). Clearly there was some Indoc going on but maybe not as much as we thought. But with IT, you have a way to filter the 4 similar looking but actually quite different endings down to one or maybe two. You get the "artistic statement" but still can point people toward one awesome ending.

[crimsontotem]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

Put us in your perspective... you put about god knows how many hours into the game... and you yourself has become Commander Shepard. Now you want to see how this story of YOU come to an end and you only get a speculative ending... what do you think? YOUR story ends abruptly witout any direct end. How woudl you feel?