1199 réponses à ce sujet

[SpamBot2000]

Just a quick interjection here, don't mean to derail what looks like a good convo....

Lots of talk about sacrifice, especially self-sacrifice, making things more "real". Possibly some atavistic mode of thinking, like "a sacrifice is needed in order to ensure the success of an endeavour" driving some of this argument? Also, regarding self-sacrifice in particular: Some people are always very insistent in these things about "a hero wanting/needing to die with his boots on" etc. Why this discomfort with a heroic figure surviving and possibly relinquishing the hero role? Phobia of domesticity?

I mean, just sayin'...

[gmboy902]

SpamBot2000 wrote...
Why this discomfort with a heroic figure surviving and possibly relinquishing the hero role?

The problem I really have, other than the fact that it has been stated to be impossible to defeat the Reapers conventionally throughout the series, is that a "Shepard lives" ending negates the other three (or four) choices.

Where is the sacrifice in that? If Shepard lives, EDI lives, and all of the characters we like live, then where's the sacrifice? Thousands or millions of military grunts die? Okay...? They're faceless people that the player doesn't care about. I would "sacrifice" a billion soldiers to see my Shepard walk out of the Citadel alive.

Sacrifice is more than just numbers. It's the effect that it has on the player. Letting a million soldiers die isn't the same, in this case, as killing off a race or losing your squadmates or Shepard himself. It isn't nearly as hard of a decision.

[Ozida]

gmboy902 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...
Why this discomfort with a heroic figure surviving and possibly relinquishing the hero role?

The problem I really have, other than the fact that it has been stated to be impossible to defeat the Reapers conventionally throughout the series, is that a "Shepard lives" ending negates the other three (or four) choices.

Where is the sacrifice in that? If Shepard lives, EDI lives, and all of the characters we like live, then where's the sacrifice? Thousands or millions of military grunts die? Okay...? They're faceless people that the player doesn't care about. I would "sacrifice" a billion soldiers to see my Shepard walk out of the Citadel alive.

Sacrifice is more than just numbers. It's the effect that it has on the player. Letting a million soldiers die isn't the same, in this case, as killing off a race or losing your squadmates or Shepard himself. It isn't nearly as hard of a decision.

So Ash/ Kaidan, Wrex/ Mordin, Thane, Leagion/ Tali still aren't enough sacrififces for most of you? How much blood do you need to be satisfied? Hooow muuch? *in tragic voice, of course*

[nhsknudsen]

No, not what we all want.

[Sire Styx]

After reading through some of these posts I feel like banging. My head. Against. A wall.
Some people are either not reading this topic or are just too stubborn, selfish and immature to consider that other people have opinions.

A typical section of the converstation is like this:
"I would like the option of a happy ending"
"You cannot have it, because it would invalidate the other endings"
"Well, not really. Not if you made it difficult to achieve"
"No, we still can't have it. Everyone would choose it"
"But... that means they want a happy ending?"
"No, they don't want a happy ending. The ending needs to have sacrifice."
"But there is plenty sacrifice in the game already"
"No, you still have to die at the end to show it's not a happy ending"

Or maybe like this:
"Ok, I agree the option for a happy ending should be there."
"Yey-"
"But you have to blow up a planet"
"What? That's not happy"
"Ok, you can have a happy ending, but Shepard needs to die"
"But that's still not happy"
"Shepard can live, but your love interest dies and shepard becomes crippled".


I honestly feel like we're talking to a bunch of sadists and masochists. It really feels like the only way you can enjoy this ending is through the suffering of others and yourself.

I want to point out a few things, and I do hope you read and not just dismiss it.
I think a lot of you are either thinking along the lines of "A Million is a Statistic" or are just outright dismissing all the sacrifice that's already been made. Some of you admit that Shepard is just one person, nothing special. But you feel that Shepard needs to die or be in agonising pain for the ending to have meaning. What about the many people who died due to the reapers? The husks and that don't just grown on trees. A lot of people have died in the game. It's just because you don't know them, it's not personal and you don't feel that it is an adequate sacrifice. If you played arrival, Shepard blew up a planet. It's not as if no one died then. We find out (indirectly) that Joker's sister is dead. Surely we've earned the right to have the option, after sacrficing so much, after working so hard, rallying the entire galaxy to lay down their lives, we should have the option to have Shepard survive and meet his LI. This is not a happy ending. It may be happy for Shepard, but many lives have been lost already. But a lot of you here seem to think that the ending only counts if you cause as much misery to Shepard (and the players) as possible. I'm not saying the reapers should be defeated conventionally. I'm not asking for Shepard to jump out the rubble and walk into the sunset with their LI, while magical unicorns dance around.

I'm just saying that, in my opinion, the option, after completeing all the side mission, choosing the correct dialogue choices, going through an actual ordeal more than what is needed to achieve the other endings, the option (just the option. Not the certainty. Nobody is forcing you to do it) for Shepard to be reunited with his love intrest without any little extras (like now the human race is extinct, or everyone has radiation sickness and has 3 month to live) would be a nice addition to the game. That's it. I'm not saying you all have to pick it. I believe you all have enough self control to avoid it if you so wish.

I want to also say that I remember people in ME2 playing specifically to get the "Everyone dies" ending. That was there choice. They wanted that ending, and that was fine. Some players had squadmates die, and decided not to reply the last mission to fix this and just accepted that this is what happened. That's also fine. That was an option you were allowed to take. Bioware gave us the option of choosing from the "best" (everyone lives) to the "worst" (everyone dies). In ME3 we are not allowed to choose the two extremes. Bioware made the game that way, but it would be nice to have the option. I don't, however, see many people arguing against the "total failure, everyone dies, reapers are ustopped" ending. I can't even see how anyone would argue against it. If it's anything like this, people would be arguing saying that the universe of ME is about sacrifice, but not too much sacrifce. Or that the option for everyone dying and the reapers being stopped is allowed, but Shepard has to live.
in ME2 we had the whole range of endings from 0-10 ( 0, everyone dies, 10
everyone live). In ME3 we seem to oly have the endings 2-8, for some
reason. The option to have total sucess and total failure would be a
nice addition to the game for everyone, regardless of whether you
personally have a prefference for one ending over another.

No other ending would be devaluated or invalidated if you had a happy ending as the balancing of it could be done in the actual game, through the choices and sacrifices you already make while playing it, like it (to me) seems it should be. As it stands now, nothing, really, that you don in the game matters. Yes krogans may have the geno****e cured, quarians and geth may make peace, but none of that really alters the fact that in the last 5 minutes

I know I've wrote a bit of a wall of text, that's full of my opinion and that. I would appreciate it  if you are going to reply to me though, you actualy read what I've wrote and not just dismiss it because I would like the availability of both a happy and a really sad ending, lol.

[Caenis]

gmboy902 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...
Why this discomfort with a heroic figure surviving and possibly relinquishing the hero role?

The problem I really have, other than the fact that it has been stated to be impossible to defeat the Reapers conventionally throughout the series, is that a "Shepard lives" ending negates the other three (or four) choices.

Where is the sacrifice in that? If Shepard lives, EDI lives, and all of the characters we like live, then where's the sacrifice? Thousands or millions of military grunts die? Okay...? They're faceless people that the player doesn't care about. I would "sacrifice" a billion soldiers to see my Shepard walk out of the Citadel alive.

Sacrifice is more than just numbers. It's the effect that it has on the player. Letting a million soldiers die isn't the same, in this case, as killing off a race or losing your squadmates or Shepard himself. It isn't nearly as hard of a decision.

Shepard does live in High EMS Destroy. It's just not elaborated on. In High EMS Destroy you don't hear Shepard speaking about what s/he learned you get the same Hackett scene, you are left to speculate whether Shepard is even found in time before bleeding out to death in the rubble. Shepard doesn't receive an award for stopping the threat in that ending which s/he is shown to be alive, the ending is literally simply cut off as if showing a breathing Shepard is no more than an 'Easter Egg'.

[kyban]

saracen16 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

no, it would cheapen the reapers and the game. The whole trilogy would just end like any other video game...

without sacrifice there is no sense of accomplishment.

Curing the genophage would not have had the same emotional effect without Mordin dieing.

the same with Kai Leng and Thane.

Well-said.

So i guess ME2 was a cheap game then. Because when i beat it the only people that died were the nobody's from Horizon. In the end of ME2 I flew off into the sunset and stared out into space, dreaming of the day i got to kill the reapers.

Though i do agree with you to an extent, accomplishment doesn't mean as much without sacrifice. But you can still have an awesome game experience if you are given The Choice for the happy ending.

[Xilizhra]

I wonder if it's telling that the people who say they want a happy ending are ignoring the happy ending they already got? Unless the problem is that Shepard died in it.

[Ozida]

Sire Styx wrote...

After reading through some of these posts I feel like banging. My head. Against. A wall.
Some people are either not reading this topic or are just too stubborn, selfish and immature to consider that other people have opinions...

...I know I've wrote a bit of a wall of text, that's full of my opinion and that. I would appreciate it  if you are going to reply to me though, you actualy read what I've wrote and not just dismiss it because I would like the availability of both a happy and a really sad ending, lol.

Thank you for this intelligent post! I feel exactly the same way, but somehow I find you are the only other person who agrees with the point that happy-ending would not change any other endings if people would like to choose something else. It’s like proving something to fanatics: not only they won’t listen, but they will crucify anything against their beliefs.


P.S. God, it would be so much easier if BW would just make a single end with no choices at all. At this point I would rather swallow that, honestly.

Modifié par Ozida, 02 juillet 2012 - 11:59 .

[Caenis]

Sire Styx wrote...

After reading through some of these posts I feel like banging. My head. Against. A wall.
Some people are either not reading this topic or are just too stubborn, selfish and immature to consider that other people have opinions.
<snip>
I know I've wrote a bit of a wall of text, that's full of my opinion and that. I would appreciate it  if you are going to reply to me though, you actualy read what I've wrote and not just dismiss it because I would like the availability of both a happy and a really sad ending, lol.

I read your wall of text, I give it a +1 as I agree. I'd love to know why people are against even validating the choice for other players. It just seems odd to me that they would want to enforce one world view on everyone rather than just allow an option for an extra choice.

Albeit there is a choice, in ME3, that choice was just never elaborated on beyond a breath of fresh air.  I think it's bad writing if you can't be creative enough to show the protagonist living while still providing an end to the story. If you can't do that much in a choice then it is a weakness as a writer that shows in the discontent of players.

At the end of the day, I like how you say that in ME2 we had the whole entire range of possible endings, but in ME3 we didn't have that range, and it HAS been felt. People who approve of Sacrifice and would have chosen it are then enforcing it on other players as the only choice they should have...but what if there had been a happy ending and people thought it should have been sad and tried to enforce that on others, instead of offering a FULL RANGE.

It would not invalidate any other endings, as it has been shown time and time again that that's not what happened.

Modifié par Caenis, 02 juillet 2012 - 11:59 .

[Sire Styx]

Ozida wrote...


Thank you for this intelligent post! I feel exactly the same way, but somehow I find you are the only other person who agrees with the point that happy-ending would not change any other endings if people would like to choose something else. It’s like proving something to fanatics: not only they won’t listen, but they crucify anything against their beliefs.

P.S. God, it would be so much easier if BW would just make a single end with no choices at all. At this point I would rather swallow that, honestly.

It's as if they've picked the worst parts out of have many/one ending. You have the choice of several endings, but they're rail-roaded to such an extent that nothing you do matters. One ending, then a good detailed explanation of what the consequences of your actions were throughout the sereis would be die, even if shepard does die or whatever. 

Caenis wrote...

I read your wall of text, I give it
a +1 as I agree. I'd love to know why people are against even
validating the choice for other players. It just seems odd to me that
they would want to enforce one world view on everyone rather than just
allow an option for an extra choice.

Albeit there is a choice, in
ME3, that choice was just never elaborated on beyond a breath of fresh
air.  I think it's bad writing if you can't be creative enough to show
the protagonist living while still providing an end to the story. If you
can't do that much in a choice then it is a weakness as a writer that
shows in the discontent of players.

At the end of the day, I like
how you say that in ME2 we had the whole entire range of possible
endings, but in ME3 we didn't have that range, and it HAS been felt.
People who approve of Sacrifice and would have chosen it are then
enforcing it on other players as the only choice they should have...but
what if there had been a happy ending and people thought it should have
been sad and tried to enforce that on others, instead of offering a FULL
RANGE.

It would not invalidate any other endings, as it has been shown time and time again that that's not what happened.

In my opinion, mass effect is all about the choice. What you may have a great impact and you have a choice in many things. But people here seem begrudge you that choice :S

Modifié par Sire Styx, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:07 .

[Caenis]

Xilizhra wrote...

I wonder if it's telling that the people who say they want a happy ending are ignoring the happy ending they already got? Unless the problem is that Shepard died in it.

I don't think they are ignoring that they got a happy ending. I think they were only able to see it as an unhappy ending because of this:

Caenis wrote...

Shepard does live in High EMS Destroy. It's just not elaborated on. In High EMS Destroy you don't hear Shepard speaking about what s/he learned you get the same Hackett scene, you are left to speculate whether Shepard is even found in time before bleeding out to death in the rubble. Shepard doesn't receive an award for stopping the threat in that ending which s/he is shown to be alive, the ending is literally simply cut off as if showing a breathing Shepard is no more than an 'Easter Egg'.

 

It took me a moment to recall that Shepard did actually live in one of the endings, and then I started wondering...so why doesn't it feel like a happy ending...because it's not acknowledged !

Modifié par Caenis, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:06 .

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

I wonder if it's telling that the people who say they want a happy ending are ignoring the happy ending they already got? Unless the problem is that Shepard died in it.

There are many different happy endings

For a given value of "happy"

[Cooling85]

Hasn't it been confirmed that this is it, though? I'm sure I've read somewhere that these endings are final...

Modifié par Cooling85, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:10 .

[Malditor]

Caenis wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I wonder if it's telling that the people who say they want a happy ending are ignoring the happy ending they already got? Unless the problem is that Shepard died in it.

I don't think they are ignoring that they got a happy ending. I think they were unable to see it as an unhappy ending because of this:

Caenis wrote...

Shepard does live in High EMS Destroy. It's just not elaborated on. In High EMS Destroy you don't hear Shepard speaking about what s/he learned you get the same Hackett scene, you are left to speculate whether Shepard is even found in time before bleeding out to death in the rubble. Shepard doesn't receive an award for stopping the threat in that ending which s/he is shown to be alive, the ending is literally simply cut off as if showing a breathing Shepard is no more than an 'Easter Egg'.

 

It took me a moment to recall that Shepard did actually live in one of the endings, and then I started wondering...so why doesn't it feel like a happy ending...because it's not acknowledged !

It's because they want it explicitly shown that shepard lives and is reunited with his/her LI etc. And they want it for whatever ending they decide. Imagine how they would react if the tables were turned and all the endings had Shepard living and those of us who felt he/she should have died at the end kept posting that we wanted that ending.

[Linkenski]

It should have been available for completionists.

[Modernpreacher]

I don't think there could be a "happy ending" here. Shepard has done too much, seen to much, and experienced too much to come back from it IMO.

He was suffering from symptoms of PTSD all through ME3, the tipping point I assume was the destruction on an entire Batarian system. Millions of lives snuffed out. And then in ME3 it starts with failing to save an innocent child, who really becomes the focal point of the emotional trauma.

After losing other team mates through ME3... I feel like by the end of ME3 Shepard is done. There is no happy ending for him/her. Saving the universe is about as good as Shepard can expect.

It's a wonderfully powerful story to me.


The extended cut endings play into that feel very well I feel. I was VERY unhappy with the first set of endings, and felt they were nonsensical. With the expanded details, conversation with the Catalyst and so on, I feel like the story is well ended.

Now I want to hear about the progenitor race that built the Catalyst and become the first Reaper. I HOPE the DLC people are talking about, and the rogue Reaper, is the Reaper from that race. That would be awesome.

[Caenis]

Malditor wrote...

It's because they want it explicitly shown that shepard lives and is reunited with his/her LI etc. And they want it for whatever ending they decide. Imagine how they would react if the tables were turned and all the endings had Shepard living and those of us who felt he/she should have died at the end kept posting that we wanted that ending.

It has been stated time and time again that *the majority of people are asking for one choice out of many, NOT for all the endings to have a happy ending. (They have even stated they were willing to make sacrifices and do whatever it took to have that). I haven't heard anyone say they want all the endings changed, what I'm hearing is they want a 'choice' just a choice, an option out of many.  "The full range."

If the tables were turned and people asked for the CHOICE of a sacrifice ending, why not give them that choice???

(Edited for spelling errors)

Modifié par Caenis, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:14 .

[Ozida]

Malditor wrote...
It's because they want it explicitly shown that shepard lives and is reunited with his/her LI etc. And they want it for whatever ending they decide. Imagine how they would react if the tables were turned and all the endings had Shepard living and those of us who felt he/she should have died at the end kept posting that we wanted that ending.

Oh... my... God! Can you people at least read one single post of "them", meaning us, people who want happy-end before making that statements?! This is ridicules!

WE DO NOT WANT ALL ENDINGS TO BE A HAPPY-END! How much more clear can we make that? We want an option. That is hardest one to get. With other options available for those of you who want heroic death.


I just take a deep breath now… and maybe go kill myself so my post is valid for its heroic action.

Modifié par Ozida, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:12 .

[Iakus]

Modernpreacher wrote...

I don't think there could be a "happy ending" here. Shepard has done too much, seen to much, and experienced too much to come back from it IMO.

He was suffering from symptoms of PTSD all through ME3, the tipping point I assume was the destruction on an entire Batarian system. Millions of lives snuffed out. And then in ME3 it starts with failing to save an innocent child, who really becomes the focal point of the emotional trauma.

After losing other team mates through ME3... I feel like by the end of ME3 Shepard is done. There is no happy ending for him/her. Saving the universe is about as good as Shepard can expect.

It's a wonderfully powerful story to me.

All the more reason why there should be an ending where Shepard can finally find peace.  After everything Shep's gone through, he/she has more than earned it.  

[Caenis]

Modernpreacher wrote...

I don't think there could be a "happy ending" here. Shepard has done too much, seen to much, and experienced too much to come back from it IMO.

He was suffering from symptoms of PTSD all through ME3, the tipping point I assume was the destruction on an entire Batarian system. Millions of lives snuffed out. And then in ME3 it starts with failing to save an innocent child, who really becomes the focal point of the emotional trauma.

After losing other team mates through ME3... I feel like by the end of ME3 Shepard is done. There is no happy ending for him/her. Saving the universe is about as good as Shepard can expect.

It's a wonderfully powerful story to me.

Sooo having PTSD and suffering in life means you have to die at the end? Let me notify my psychiatrist that I need to die tragically in the line of fire in order to have any meaning and fulfillment in my life.

[Malditor]

Ozida wrote...

Malditor wrote...
It's because they want it explicitly shown that shepard lives and is reunited with his/her LI etc. And they want it for whatever ending they decide. Imagine how they would react if the tables were turned and all the endings had Shepard living and those of us who felt he/she should have died at the end kept posting that we wanted that ending.

Oh... my... God! Can you people at least read one single post of "them", meaning us, people who want happy-end before making that statements?! This is ridicules!

WE DO NOT WANT ALL ENDINGS TO BE A HAPPY-END! How much more clear can we make that? We want an option. That is hardest one to get. With other options available for those of you who want heroic death.


I just take a deep breath now… and maybe go kill myself so my post is valid for its heroic action.

What I have read is several people who like different endings wanting the ability for Shepard to live. Nobody is agreeing on one set ending. I also didn't say that you wanted all endings to have him/her live, I said imaging if that were the case and we were posting how there should be an option for shepard to die... Not the same thing.

[incinerator950]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Just a quick interjection here, don't mean to derail what looks like a good convo....

Lots of talk about sacrifice, especially self-sacrifice, making things more "real". Possibly some atavistic mode of thinking, like "a sacrifice is needed in order to ensure the success of an endeavour" driving some of this argument? Also, regarding self-sacrifice in particular: Some people are always very insistent in these things about "a hero wanting/needing to die with his boots on" etc. Why this discomfort with a heroic figure surviving and possibly relinquishing the hero role? Phobia of domesticity?

I mean, just sayin'...

They both can work if written correctly.  For Control, Shepard is alive without a body.  In Merge, you give up body and mind to join with the Catalyst.  You live in Destroy with a high EMS. 

Modifié par incinerator950, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:19 .

[SpamBot2000]

Modernpreacher wrote...

I don't think there could be a "happy ending" here. Shepard has done too much, seen to much, and experienced too much to come back from it IMO.

He was suffering from symptoms of PTSD all through ME3, the tipping point I assume was the destruction on an entire Batarian system. Millions of lives snuffed out. And then in ME3 it starts with failing to save an innocent child, who really becomes the focal point of the emotional trauma.

After losing other team mates through ME3... I feel like by the end of ME3 Shepard is done. There is no happy ending for him/her. Saving the universe is about as good as Shepard can expect.

It's a wonderfully powerful story to me.

Now if you were to draw links from this to a real issue in society... Seeing people returning from wars suffering is disturbing, and there's a lot of that around. Easier to look away, say that the story demanded his death?

[Ozida]

Malditor wrote...
What I have read is several people who like different endings wanting the ability for Shepard to live. Nobody is agreeing on one set ending. I also didn't say that you wanted all endings to have him/her live, I said imaging if that were the case and we were posting how there should be an option for shepard to die... Not the same thing.

Ok, maybe I overreacted a bit, sorry about that. But as stated above, I just don't understand why people are so much against of the option of the happy-ending (with no sh*it of "Oh, but you already got plenty of happy ending").

Don't like it - don't choose it.

Modifié par Ozida, 03 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .