1199 réponses à ce sujet

[CSI_Spectre]

I think it wouldn't have been TOO bad to have the option to have that kind of a happy ending. It's the player's choice; that's what Mass Effect was about.

Sure make the player meet high specifications on EMS and all, but it would be nice to just have the option there. You bring the entire galactic fleet to Earth to stop the reapers. THE ENTIRE GALACTIC FLEET!!!!

If a player is able to obtain such a high enough EMS, I think the player should have been rewarded with such a legendary ending where Shepard lives, reunites with his/her LI, etc... Right now it just feels like a wasted effort to get more war assets than needed because you'll still get your choice of 4 endings for your Shepard really.

The EC exceeded my expectations and gave us good endings. They are good endings but far from epic. The endings, even now, just don't seem to live up to the momentum the Mass Effect series had since it first started.

[warlock22]

CSI_Spectre wrote...

I think it wouldn't have been TOO bad to have the option to have that kind of a happy ending. It's the player's choice; that's what Mass Effect was about.

Sure make the player meet high specifications on EMS and all, but it would be nice to just have the option there. You bring the entire galactic fleet to Earth to stop the reapers. THE ENTIRE GALACTIC FLEET!!!!

If a player is able to obtain such a high enough EMS, I think the player should have been rewarded with such a legendary ending where Shepard lives, reunites with his/her LI, etc... Right now it just feels like a wasted effort to get more war assets than needed because you'll still get your choice of 4 endings for your Shepard really.

You said it, its player choice. And Shepard winning conventionally and reunitieing with his/her LI and crew fits with the theme of ME.  And I just get tired of hearing people say "Shepard cant do this" or "Cant do that. What has Shepard been doing this whole time? Beating impossible odds all the time, and walking out like a hero.

[Udalango]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Udalango wrote...

How can you decide how you feel on a choice if you dont know all the consequences of the choice though?

I do want to respond to this because I think it's a great question.


When you're not told the consequences of the choice itself, it shifts the emphasis to the choice itself, rather than the consequences.

We'll use the original destroy ending as an example.  Many people feel it's too much of a price to pay to sacrifice the Geth and EDI to destroy the Reapers.  Many people though, were curious if the Catalyst was being entirely honest or even fully knew the answer?  There was enough of an epilogue to show that this may be the case (how the Crucible's beam affects people on Earth, and whether or not Shepard surives).

Now, if we show a full epilogue that shows that the Geth and EDI actually survive, then the choice becomes purely about the consequence.  People will happily pick that option, in spite of the risk to the Geth and EDI, because they know it doesn't actually happen.

Not knowing for certain, or at least believing that it will happen, places the emphasis clearly on how the player (and through the player, Shepard) feels about the choice.  Some people are not interested in choosing it because the price is too high.  For some people the Geth are already dead (or they hate the Geth), so it's an easy choice.  Others think that the consequences suck, but ultimately it must be done, and do it with remorse.

It makes the player evaluate the choices as they stand, without any influence from the actual outcomes that may exist.  It also means that the player will not be put into a situation where the the game ends up telling them that the choice they made doesn't actually turn out they way they wanted it to when they made that choice.


I suppose I'm just speaking on behalf of myself (many people didn't like them obviously), but it made me evaluate the choices purely internally.  Each of the choices had a potential cost to them, coupled with some uncertainty over the reliability of the Catalyst, and each of the choices made me reflect on myself as a person.  At what point am I willing to bend on my ethical beliefs if I feel the end justifies the means?

This is also why I supported the fans' idea that there should be the option to refuse the Catalyst.  After the fact, I realized that providing these ethical considerations without providing the option for the player to say "I don't wish to compromise them" is less interesting.


Great question though!

I understand what you are saying, and would be inclined to agree somewhat.  My main problem is this, I wont know all the consequences of my choice WHILE I am making it.  So we can keep what you are saying and still give us a real ending, and not some open ended "Make your own ending"  

Bioware did great with this in other games, and even ME3 (Well sorta)   On Grissom when I decided where to send Jack, who was my LI, I hesitated.  If I send her to the front she could die.  Was I willing to Send my LI to the front lines and possible death for a better score?  No I wasnt.   Apparently in the EC this matters....kinda maybe I heard you get different epilouge slides for it which is whatever.   I had to think about my choice there, I thought hard to because up until that point ME has made me question myself with its decisions without having to give us the bare bones "What happened"

Ive said this before but they should cut Star kid completely and introduce the choices earlier, like DIRECTLY after Mars.  Dont give all the info right then though give it little by little.  Let you know Destroy kills the Geth RIGHT before the Geth Quarian conclusion and watch the person re evaluate right there.  

Thanks for responding, I have returned ME3 and was not planning on buying any Bioware games but your attitude is great and I will now be checking out Dragon Age 3.  We may not agreee on points but at least you dont sound condescending about it. 

Modifié par Udalango, 05 juillet 2012 - 07:09 .

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

LaughingDragon wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

You want to know the REAL truth Allan?

Here it is.... Because that's what we are paying you for. To give us what we want. Do you think millions of fans want to spend $60 and get something they don't like? Every poll taken shows that 70-80% of more of fans thought the endings were terrible. The most die hard fans, had problems with the whole game for reasons like how prior choices RE the rachni, geth/quarian etc etc etc etc don't matter at all in ME3. Casual fans who just like to shoot guns with blue and red lights obviously don't care. 

Do you know why we all bought ME2 and ME3? Because in ME1 Shepard walks out from under that rubble against all odds and triumphs over saren and sovereign.

Why did we buy ME3? Because shepard survives the suicide mission and takes down the collectors and walks away a hero.

Why do 80% of fans hate ME3 ending? Because there's no way to WIN, there's no way for Shepard to walk away a hero. Every scenario is epic failure. Green eyed zombies...wtf dude? Controlling the reapers? Yeah no. Destroying the reapers with red lightning space magic and dying or gasping for air in the rubble fade to black? 

[warlock22]

Grumpy-Mcfart wrote...

LaughingDragon wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

You want to know the REAL truth Allan?

Here it is.... Because that's what we are paying you for. To give us what we want. Do you think millions of fans want to spend $60 and get something they don't like? Every poll taken shows that 70-80% of more of fans thought the endings were terrible. The most die hard fans, had problems with the whole game for reasons like how prior choices RE the rachni, geth/quarian etc etc etc etc don't matter at all in ME3. Casual fans who just like to shoot guns with blue and red lights obviously don't care. 

Do you know why we all bought ME2 and ME3? Because in ME1 Shepard walks out from under that rubble against all odds and triumphs over saren and sovereign.

Why did we buy ME3? Because shepard survives the suicide mission and takes down the collectors and walks away a hero.

Why do 80% of fans hate ME3 ending? Because there's no way to WIN, there's no way for Shepard to walk away a hero. Every scenario is epic failure. Green eyed zombies...wtf dude? Controlling the reapers? Yeah no. Destroying the reapers with red lightning space magic and dying or gasping for air in the rubble fade to black? 

TruthB)

[KDD-0063]

It's not what's important;
EC partially works because it is generally utopian, especially the blue and green endings became much more utopian than before. EC sets positive theme for all three ending rather than allow unpleasant speculations from everyone about what happens in the three endings.

A large number of those who still complain about EC, like me, are complaining about the whole Crucible plot's narrative incoherence and disconnection with the rest of the franchise.

Modifié par KDD-0063, 05 juillet 2012 - 10:01 .

[Pinkflamingo22]

Its not that Shepard has no happy ending. Its that Shepard is completely out of character at the end. The entire scene with the star child is confusing and doesn't seem to fit in the universe. There has to be another way, or at least shepard has to try. Thats the problem, if you choose to refuse its like shephard just gives up.

I don't care if shephard lives, I just want to see him act like himself and not listen to what is clearly Harbringer.

[Sire Styx]

We haven't got a happy ending in any.
I think the endings (synth+contr) just turn everything into a 'Crapsaccharine World'. Synthesis (and control probably) look all happy and nice, with no conflict and that. But then you think why is there no conflict? Because there is an (benevolent? possibly not if you play renegade) all-powerful ruler who controls giant war machines who can squish anyone who disobeys. Or everyone now is the same, and presumably won't evolve much different. Both of these endings seem to go against the 'everyone is different' sort of idea and plays straight into the following the line of evolution the reapers set out for every cycle. What will happen to the reapers in control? Will they always be enslaved, or can they break free? Will Shepard stay sane after millenia of ruling, will s/he be able to resist taking the "easy" route when conflict arises?

I can't really explain it properly, but both control and synthesis just seem wrong and go against eveything we've done. There's a difference between bringing everyone to work together and forcing everyone to become the same or follow the same thing. I honestly thought that, at the end of ME3, the galaxy would be free to follow their own path.

Destory isn't much better. It's absolutly not as "happy" as the previous two, because suddenly mass genocide has occured. At least they're free from a (potentially) oppresive ruler. They don't get the benefits of masses of knowledge or protection from giant killer-machines neither, but that is potentially a good thing because there's no chance of the machines going rogue. The destroy ending probably has the best long-term chance, as they're free to follow whatever path they choose. But I wouldn't say it's happy, more of a pyrrhic victory, but there is potential in future.

Refusal is not a normal victory. Depending on your view it's either terrible and a big middle finger to the players who disagreed with the other options (if you think that the next cycle used the crucible) or it's still terrible, but gives a future race hope to survive and further develop on it's own (if you think the next cycle won through conventional means). It still means that this cycle was lost, and is a bit of a pyrrhic victory also.

It would be nice to have an ending that was nicer than these, one which showed hope and was more like a 'conventional' victory where the galaxy won without seeming like it lost.

[N7Gold]

ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 

I'm down with this.

[warlock22]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Udalango wrote...

How can you decide how you feel on a choice if you dont know all the consequences of the choice though?

I do want to respond to this because I think it's a great question.


When you're not told the consequences of the choice itself, it shifts the emphasis to the choice itself, rather than the consequences.

We'll use the original destroy ending as an example.  Many people feel it's too much of a price to pay to sacrifice the Geth and EDI to destroy the Reapers.  Many people though, were curious if the Catalyst was being entirely honest or even fully knew the answer?  There was enough of an epilogue to show that this may be the case (how the Crucible's beam affects people on Earth, and whether or not Shepard surives).

Now, if we show a full epilogue that shows that the Geth and EDI actually survive, then the choice becomes purely about the consequence.  People will happily pick that option, in spite of the risk to the Geth and EDI, because they know it doesn't actually happen.

Not knowing for certain, or at least believing that it will happen, places the emphasis clearly on how the player (and through the player, Shepard) feels about the choice.  Some people are not interested in choosing it because the price is too high.  For some people the Geth are already dead (or they hate the Geth), so it's an easy choice.  Others think that the consequences suck, but ultimately it must be done, and do it with remorse.

It makes the player evaluate the choices as they stand, without any influence from the actual outcomes that may exist.  It also means that the player will not be put into a situation where the the game ends up telling them that the choice they made doesn't actually turn out they way they wanted it to when they made that choice.


I suppose I'm just speaking on behalf of myself (many people didn't like them obviously), but it made me evaluate the choices purely internally.  Each of the choices had a potential cost to them, coupled with some uncertainty over the reliability of the Catalyst, and each of the choices made me reflect on myself as a person.  At what point am I willing to bend on my ethical beliefs if I feel the end justifies the means?

This is also why I supported the fans' idea that there should be the option to refuse the Catalyst.  After the fact, I realized that providing these ethical considerations without providing the option for the player to say "I don't wish to compromise them" is less interesting.


Great question though!

I get what your saying Allen, but I can say the same thing about how your major choices in the game dont matter in the end or in ME3. The Rakni queen is in ME3 no matter what, Cerberus still gets the reaper from the collector base even if you destroyed it. Now if I play threw the other games again, just because I know that in the end those choices dont matter doesn't mean that I will give the Collector base to the IM, or that I wont tell the Quarians not to go to war because they do it anyway. Becasue thats not how my story goes, even though my choices really dont change anyhting I will still choose them.

[JKA_Nozyspy]

ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 

Hopefully the 'Creating new end for Mass Effect 3' project can do that, i never even thought anyone would be able to dig right into the ME3 files enough for that, but where there is a will there is a way!

To be honest, if possible, someone needs to mod the .bik movie files for the destroy ending, so that it plays the Quarian and Geth slides, and mabe a quick one of EDI and Joker too, so we can have our 'happy' ending.

[Mr Cloud]

JKA_Nozyspy wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 

Hopefully the 'Creating new end for Mass Effect 3' project can do that, i never even thought anyone would be able to dig right into the ME3 files enough for that, but where there is a will there is a way!

To be honest, if possible, someone needs to mod the .bik movie files for the destroy ending, so that it plays the Quarian and Geth slides, and mabe a quick one of EDI and Joker too, so we can have our 'happy' ending.

It wouldn't be as satisfying as getting it straight from BW. Also, what's the point of choosing anything in the end when we can edit ending ourselves? (by messing with *sigh* files *sigh*)

Modifié par Mr Cloud, 07 juillet 2012 - 10:13 .

[ElMuchu]

CSI_Spectre wrote...

I think it wouldn't have been TOO bad to have the option to have that kind of a happy ending. It's the player's choice; that's what Mass Effect was about.

Sure make the player meet high specifications on EMS and all, but it would be nice to just have the option there. You bring the entire galactic fleet to Earth to stop the reapers. THE ENTIRE GALACTIC FLEET!!!!

If a player is able to obtain such a high enough EMS, I think the player should have been rewarded with such a legendary ending where Shepard lives, reunites with his/her LI, etc... Right now it just feels like a wasted effort to get more war assets than needed because you'll still get your choice of 4 endings for your Shepard really.

The EC exceeded my expectations and gave us good endings. They are good endings but far from epic. The endings, even now, just don't seem to live up to the momentum the Mass Effect series had since it first started.

I share the same point of view

[warlock22]

Mr Cloud wrote...

JKA_Nozyspy wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 

Hopefully the 'Creating new end for Mass Effect 3' project can do that, i never even thought anyone would be able to dig right into the ME3 files enough for that, but where there is a will there is a way!

To be honest, if possible, someone needs to mod the .bik movie files for the destroy ending, so that it plays the Quarian and Geth slides, and mabe a quick one of EDI and Joker too, so we can have our 'happy' ending.

It wouldn't be as satisfying as getting it straight from BW. Also, what's the point of choosing anything in the end when we can edit ending ourselves? (by messing with *sigh* files *sigh*)

I have to agree with Mr Cloud, I think its awesome that players are thinking of moding the endings, but it wouldn't be as "real" if you will, if we didnt get it from BioWare.

Modifié par warlock22, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:37 .

[ambitiontowin56]

that's why watching and reading all of these fan made endings seem inconsequential. although some of them are exactly what we wanted, it seems pointless because I don't get to really experience it

[JKA_Nozyspy]

warlock22 wrote...

Mr Cloud wrote...

JKA_Nozyspy wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 

Hopefully the 'Creating new end for Mass Effect 3' project can do that, i never even thought anyone would be able to dig right into the ME3 files enough for that, but where there is a will there is a way!

To be honest, if possible, someone needs to mod the .bik movie files for the destroy ending, so that it plays the Quarian and Geth slides, and mabe a quick one of EDI and Joker too, so we can have our 'happy' ending.

It wouldn't be as satisfying as getting it straight from BW. Also, what's the point of choosing anything in the end when we can edit ending ourselves? (by messing with *sigh* files *sigh*)

I have to agree with Mr Cloud, I think its awesome that players are thinking of moding the endings, but it wouldn't be as "real" if you will, if we didnt get it from BioWare.

Yeah, i understand what you mean, but in the absence of Bioware providing us with a 'happy ending' version, like they did with ME1 and ME2, as customers we should be able to say, 'You wont give us our ideal ending? Fine, we shall make it ourselves!'. I mean in the real world, there are many products, like cars for example, where the vanilla product is ok but not the buyers idea of perfect, which is why lots of people modify their cars to suit their personal tastes or needs. Modding the actual meat of the game might be possible, but it is a long way off, if we could just 'adjust' the ending slides and perhaps edit the timing or pieces of dialogue played, we could kitbash an ending that would mean that those of us that wanted a space opera 'the bad guys get blown up, everyone lives happy ever after' ending could get one.

With the EC, and a little mod that would let us pick a destroy ending without commiting genocide and murder against our own friends, i could live with the existential brainwarp of the whole cosmic toddler thing.

Heck, if someone ever managed to edit the kids soundfiles and maybe replace the model with a borked up version like Vigil on Ilos, i could even live with the idea of a super ancient, crazed AI!

Modifié par JKA_Nozyspy, 09 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[Deltoran]

Hmm...I would like a happy ending...doesn't have to be conventional. But, yeah LI/Crew reunion, and Geth and EDI not dying...perhaps Catalyst lied...a bit late for all that though unless somebody's a heck of a modder, I can't imagine that it would be super difficult to modify the ending slides though...but what do I know.

[Iakus]

JKA_Nozyspy wrote...

warlock22 wrote...

Mr Cloud wrote...

JKA_Nozyspy wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

 Simple paragon ending. 

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

Is this basicly what we all want? 

Hopefully the 'Creating new end for Mass Effect 3' project can do that, i never even thought anyone would be able to dig right into the ME3 files enough for that, but where there is a will there is a way!

To be honest, if possible, someone needs to mod the .bik movie files for the destroy ending, so that it plays the Quarian and Geth slides, and mabe a quick one of EDI and Joker too, so we can have our 'happy' ending.

It wouldn't be as satisfying as getting it straight from BW. Also, what's the point of choosing anything in the end when we can edit ending ourselves? (by messing with *sigh* files *sigh*)

I have to agree with Mr Cloud, I think its awesome that players are thinking of moding the endings, but it wouldn't be as "real" if you will, if we didnt get it from BioWare.

Yeah, i understand what you mean, but in the absence of Bioware providing us with a 'happy ending' version, like they did with ME1 and ME2, as customers we should be able to say, 'You wont give us our ideal ending? Fine, we shall make it ourselves!'. I mean in the real world, there are many products, like cars for example, where the vanilla product is ok but not the buyers idea of perfect, which is why lots of people modify their cars to suit their personal tastes or needs. Modding the actual meat of the game might be possible, but it is a long way off, if we could just 'adjust' the ending slides and perhaps edit the timing or pieces of dialogue played, we could kitbash an ending that would mean that those of us that wanted a space opera 'the bad guys get blown up, everyone lives happy ever after' ending could get one.

With the EC, and a little mod that would let us pick a destroy ending without commiting genocide and murder against our own friends, i could live with the existential brainwarp of the whole cosmic toddler thing.

Heck, if someone ever managed to edit the kids soundfiles and maybe replace the model with a borked up version like Vigil on Ilos, i could even live with the idea of a super ancient, crazed AI!

This.

It may not be as satisfying, but it would certainly be more satisfying than what Bioware provided

[Iakus]

A happy ending sure goes a long way towards forgiving other faults, yes.

And many would argue that genociding an entire race is too high a cost for any ending but the "you screwed up" failure ending.

As my own Shepard said at one point "When we start killing our friends it drops being war and becomes murder"

[JKA_Nozyspy]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Yup, because every game should end with the hero winning with at absoulutely no cost because that's what makes a good game. A happy ending.

Did you complain that ME1 had a 'happy' ending where the Alliance rides in and saves the day, becoming heroes? Or how about the 'happy' ending in ME2 where you could survive and save your entire crew. That isnt to say that sacrifices should not be in the story, as that is important for emotional engagement, but why have two games with a space opera ending, and then just have the last game with a grimdark sacrifice everything ending?

Did anyone ever complain that Luke, Han, Leia and the gang have a wild party with Ewoks and fireworks at the end of Return of the Jedi?

Yes there should be sacrifices to make and a price to pay for victory, but the price in the Destroy ending seems well out of proportion compared to the Control and Synthesis endings. i think a more appropriate 'cost' would have been to have the galactic fleet take even more massive casualties in the destroy ending, meaning that it takes longer to rebuild, but the satisfaction would come knowing that their sacrifice was not in vain, a la the sacrifice of a lot of the Arcturus Fleet at the Battle of the Citadel.

iakus wrote...

A happy ending sure goes a long way towards forgiving other faults, yes.

And many would argue that genociding an entire race is too high a cost for any ending but the "you screwed up" failure ending.

As my own Shepard said at one point "When we start killing our friends it drops being war and becomes murder"

Excellent quote, i think that describes really well the complete dichotomy between the theme of the games and the destroy ending which should really be the 'official' ending considering the whole point of the series story arc.

[KiwiQuiche]

I want it incredibly hard to achieve, but still able to have it there.

[dreman9999]

No convention means mean no conventional means. Why is this so hard to understand?

[dreman9999]

Pinkflamingo22 wrote...

Its not that Shepard has no happy ending. Its that Shepard is completely out of character at the end. The entire scene with the star child is confusing and doesn't seem to fit in the universe. There has to be another way, or at least shepard has to try. Thats the problem, if you choose to refuse its like shephard just gives up.

I don't care if shephard lives, I just want to see him act like himself and not listen to what is clearly Harbringer.

Shepard is not out of character at all. He's not doing what the starchild wants, being that what he wants is synthesis. You still have the options of contr;, destory and refuse which any character of Shepard can pick. The problem is that you still hate the staerchild and no ammount of fixing can ever change it.