1199 réponses à ce sujet

[.458]

That would be a nice option. It sort of reminds me of the superhero style comic, where no matter what it is that has gone wrong, there is always one person that can do the extraordinary and pull the rabbit out of the hat even when when there is no hope.

[Wintermaulz]

Scolai wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

Because in the best stories, the timeless ones that are cherished for generations, the ones that matter to people and keep them warm when the real world goes cold and give a glimmer of light when the darkness closes in, end in such a way, realistic or not.

We live in a time plagued by a horrible, horrible fad that says to be "important" or "deep" you need to kill off the main character and wreck the world.  The theme always has to be sacrifice, and yet many authors seem to entirely forget that sacrifice isn't the only way to end a story. Why this is I don't know.  It flies in the face of the stories that people actually enjoy.  Real life has far too much doom and gloom as it is.  There is neither anything wrong with having a happier ending, nor are "sacrifice" endings somehow more poinent.  They're simply a sign of our times and a sad commentary on how little hope we collectively have.  If you can no longer believe in miracles, in overcoming the impossible, well...you don't really need heroes any more, just martyrs.

Look at the stories people consider to be classics of the fantasy and sci-fi genre.  Look at Star Wars or Lord of the Rings.  Do they end in darkness?  No.  They end with the hero conquering all, and receiving their just reward.  Want a more recent example?  Look at the Avengers.  Ants standing up to the boot, so to speak, and winning against impossible odds.  Why?  Because that's what heroes do.  It's what we need them to do, so that we can have that glimmer of hope in our own lives.  It's also, in the Star Wars case and somewhat in Mass Effect, the monomyth.  It's what we want as a people because it's our most basic of stories.

Ending on a sad note because it's trendy to do so means Mass Effect likely won't go on to have the sort of appeal that Star Wars does.  Sure, lots of people will like it...but consider this - which ending do you think people will remember most in 10 years...Mass Effect or Return of the Jedi?  Or Avengers?  Or Lord of the Rings?

this

 /thread

[warlock22]

Yes this should be an option that's all I wanted! It is possible to beat the reapers conventionally, the lore backs it up, you gathered the whole galaxy and they found a weakness in the reapers.

[Allan Schumacher]

Greylycantrope wrote...

OP this is pretty much what I've been asking for the whole time.

Allan I'll answer your question with a question "Why shouldn't it?"

Since I was already asking my question in response to the OPs question, we could really go in circles all day with this if we play it this way.

He's gathering our responses.

To be clear, I'm not "gathering" anything.  I'm simply curious, because it's a perspective that is different than mine and hence intrinsically is more difficult for me to understand.

Do NOT respond to me if you're attaching any sort of expectation that it will change anything.  I do not want people feeling hopeful for more endings because of this thread.  I have no control over anything like that.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 29 juin 2012 - 04:40 .

[wantedman dan]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do NOT respond to me if you're attaching any sort of expectation that it will change anything.

If I didn't think it would end in a ban, and I do, I would unleash the ridiculously condescending line you set yourself up for.

[warlock22]

Scolai wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

Because in the best stories, the timeless ones that are cherished for generations, the ones that matter to people and keep them warm when the real world goes cold and give a glimmer of light when the darkness closes in, end in such a way, realistic or not.

We live in a time plagued by a horrible, horrible fad that says to be "important" or "deep" you need to kill off the main character and wreck the world.  The theme always has to be sacrifice, and yet many authors seem to entirely forget that sacrifice isn't the only way to end a story. Why this is I don't know.  It flies in the face of the stories that people actually enjoy.  Real life has far too much doom and gloom as it is.  There is neither anything wrong with having a happier ending, nor are "sacrifice" endings somehow more poinent.  They're simply a sign of our times and a sad commentary on how little hope we collectively have.  If you can no longer believe in miracles, in overcoming the impossible, well...you don't really need heroes any more, just martyrs.

Look at the stories people consider to be classics of the fantasy and sci-fi genre.  Look at Star Wars or Lord of the Rings.  Do they end in darkness?  No.  They end with the hero conquering all, and receiving their just reward.  Want a more recent example?  Look at the Avengers.  Ants standing up to the boot, so to speak, and winning against impossible odds.  Why?  Because that's what heroes do.  It's what we need them to do, so that we can have that glimmer of hope in our own lives.  It's also, in the Star Wars case and somewhat in Mass Effect, the monomyth.  It's what we want as a people because it's our most basic of stories.

Ending on a sad note because it's trendy to do so means Mass Effect likely won't go on to have the sort of appeal that Star Wars does.  Sure, lots of people will like it...but consider this - which ending do you think people will remember most in 10 years...Mass Effect or Return of the Jedi?  Or Avengers?  Or Lord of the Rings?

This!!! All of this!! Very well said!

[im commander shep]

I don't see why an ending like this could not have been done. You try and win conventionally but it only succeeds with very high EMS and massive loss of life maybe couple of planets get razed. Would have kept the balance of the endings better I feel.

[PoSpoon]

I want the ending to brush Traynor's teeth and give me tickets to Blasto 6 too.

[Kalyppso]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Do NOT respond to me if you're attaching any sort of expectation that it will change anything.  I do not want people feeling hopeful for more endings because of this thread.  I have no control over anything like that.

I just wanted to express that I don't expect anything to be changed despite the structure of my previous reply.
I just misinterpret your question I think, based on the answers of other people in the thread.
Sorry.

[Miekkas]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

I'm just asking this to facilitate discussion, so I'm not trying to pour salt on the wound or anything (my that sounds ominous...).


I see your opinion come up, and I often state my opinion and perspective.  I want to try something a bit different.  Many feel "why can't we have that in the refusal ending?"

Which is a fair enough point.  The writers/designers could have easily allowed that to be an option (what happens in the game is literally whatever they put in).


Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

Hi Allan,

I hope these words find you well, and if they reach you, please pass them on to the team. EDIT: These are just thoughts for you and them to think about. What is done with them is up to anyone.

I want to answer you question with this: Why not? People seemed to have loved the fact that games like Chrono Trigger have various endings that are all very different in nature, so why not Mass Effect? The more endings and variables the better I say.

In many discussions involving the Refusal Ending, players cite that the reason for it resulting in the ultimate defeat of the united forces is that many times it is stated that you cannot win by conventional means. But how many times in the series has Shepard turned around and done exactly what NPCs said was impossible depending on how much effort the player puts into the game? As a developer, you know better than any of us ever could that the trilogy has spent a very sizeable portion of the game centered around Shepard and his/her team achieving what others deemed impossible based upon how much effort the player puts into the game. Remember the words of the Illusive Man during the Suicide Mission: "Shepard, you have done the impossible." Those are strong words coming from a man not easily impressed like the Illusive Man and strongly suggests that even the Illusive Man had his doubts about Shepard's odds of success, but Shepard not only was successful, he exceeded all expectations. Or remember the words of Javik, who noted that Shepard and his allies were far more united as against the Reapers than the Protheans, and that they just might stand a chance. Again these are strong words from as cynical a character as Javik. The character of Shepard has achieved in his or her lifetime what others had deemed as impossible based upon the efforts of the player: he cured the genophage, brought peace between the quarians and geth, led a suicide mission with no casualties, etc. And these are just some of the major examples the from games. There are many others in the games that vary based upon the player's decisions and how much effort they put into the game. It is this feeling of accomplishment and upliftment that the player has come to know and cherish from the Mass Effect series. The current endings, especially the Refusal Ending, does not deliver this same kind of feeling to the player. Instead, the players find themselves confronted with now four choices that involve committing acts of highly questionable morality via deus ex machina with no means of achieving an ending that shares the same uplifting and overcoming impossible odds message.

Another issue I have noticed among some players and the stance suddenly taken at the end in stark contrast to the rest of the game is that there seems to be the belief that the hero must die in order to be hero worthy of legend and depth. You do not need the hero to die in order for a game, movie, or novel to have a deep message. Rather, a hero who lives, albeit with the scars caused by his, the team's, and the Galaxy's sacrifices, can bring an even deeper meaning to the story. A story that shows how much a hero has suffered to achieve a "happy" ending can bring even greater inspiration to people than if a hero simply sacrifices him/herself to save the world. Please see the Lord of the Rings for a stellar example of sacrifice and suffering by the hero to achieve peace and happiness at the end of a long and arduous journey. Could the hero have been hailed as a martyr and a savior if he had died? Yes, but when a story is executed in a particular way, there can be even deeper meaning in that hero having to live with the suffering and sacrifice. Sometimes true strength and sacrifice comes from having to live with your choices and suffering at the end of the day instead of it being washed away with death. Regardless if Shepard and his team dies, they and the Galaxy have already suffered enough for it to be a bittersweet ending. Ask any soldier how they felt fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and their stories will be bitter sweet at best even if they came home to their families. Because a lot of times, they lost buddies, parts of their soul, and maybe even parts of their physical selves, but their sacrifice and suffering still matters.  In the game the potential and possibly gameplay forced death of Shepard and the team does not positively add to the message of sacrifice like I think you intended it would. Shepard does not need to die for it to be the end of his story. I'm sure he'll be plenty busy having to take care of little blue children, building a house on Rannoch, etc.

This ending completely goes against the established message of hope and overcoming impossible odds if you are willing to put enough into the game. Throughout the trilogy, the majority of the third included, Shepard is portrayed as this larger than life character who builds a career on doing the impossible and living to tell the tale. He embodies a symbol of hope and perseverance for the player that shows if you are willing the put enough time and effort into the game, you can achieve a “happy ending”. The ending of the third game completely breaks this set rule for seemingly no reason seemingly other than shock factor.

I may be selfish, but I want to see an end to Shepard where the Reapers are defeated, and the choices, suffering, and sacrifices of the him, his team, and the Galaxy matter. I want to see the "happy" ending and message of hope I have seen in the past two game's endings. Where the quarians and geth are able to live together now as brothers and sisters. Where the turians and Krogan now respect each other not as enemies on the battlefield, but as comrades. Where the sacrifices and suffering of the krogans ushers in a cultural renaissance to prove the salarians wrong, and make Mordin's faith in Bakara and Wrex mean something. Where the pain and loss of Shepard and Liara is finally laid to rest where it is at least implied they can live in peace together with lots of blue children. Where the newfound affection of Garrus and Tali can be explored instead of being just a fun easter egg, and show that when one down closes, another one opens. But we must also remember the suffering and pain as well that they all must now live with. Show the graves of those we have lost. Show the devastation on each of the major worlds attacked by the Reapers. The games as they are now currently do not offer closure to us for what is supposed to be the end of Commander Shepard's story with the message of hope we have come to expect from Mass Effect despite the suffering and sacrifices along the way. The Extended Cut helps offer a slightly better message of hope, but it is not the same as the past two games in my opinion.

You have given us a message of hope in the past where even when life seems darkness, light can still shine through. There is nothing wrong with an ending of bittersweet happiness because the world needs those stories. They give us strength to continue holding on even when there seems to be no hope left. Sometimes we need heroes to walk among us, and not simply be remembered as martyrs. I want to see an ending like I described above, and I am sure there are others who would like to see one as well. We don’t want to backed into a corner where we are given three depressing ending that make us feel like it was all an empty victory. Every day we hear stories of death, war, and sadness, and we don't hear enough of those with hope. Because without those stories, it empties our lives of meaning where we are taught that matter how hard we fight, we cannot outcome obstacles. People need to be inspired, Bioware.  They need to be shown through games and art that sometimes you can come out a fight with your head held high.

I liked the majority of Mass Effect 3. It has some of the best writing I have seen in a video game or any form of entertainment…but the ending just fails to live up the  stellar standard set by the previous two titles and the majority of the third. I am still in dismay and confusion to try and understand how this ending came to be accepted by your writing team and Casey Hudson. There are times when I feel so deep in doubt, I desperately want to believe that you have something up your sleeve like the infamous indoctrination theory, but I cannot bring myself to believe in such things. I will try to remember Mass Effect for what it was and not how the ending made it turn out.

Again, if you do happen to read this, please pass it onto your fellow team members and think on it if you find it worth your time. I think a fair number of people would greatly appreciate seeing an ending of that kind. EDIT: I'm not asking or worse yet demanding you change anything because as you said, it is out of your hands. It's just something to think about I suppose.

Thanks.

Modifié par Miekkas, 29 juin 2012 - 04:45 .

[ChuckieJ]

LaughingDragon wrote...

Shepard dying is definitely losing.

When you invest 3 entire games and years into one character, his death is a loss. The pay-off was defeating the reapers, saving the galaxy, saving earth, getting to be with your love interest, saving your team/friends etc.

I disagree. Ultimately yes I want exactly what you describe. But self-sacrifice is one of the biggest things missing from our culture. Deeply saddening honestly.

Shep dying in a final push to kill the Reapers FOR REAL is totally reasonable & downright heroic. If it seems like he died but actually miraculously survives (best destroy ending), all the better.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

OP this is pretty much what I've been asking for the whole time.

Allan I'll answer your question with a question "Why shouldn't it?"

Since I was already asking my question in response to the OPs question, we could really go in circles all day with this if we play it this way.

To be fair I did elaborate on my position of why it should.

[EnvyTB075]

Master Chief lived at the end of Halo 3., except it was only known to those who put in the effort (or looked it up on youtube).

Why can't the same apply here?

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 29 juin 2012 - 04:44 .

[Slipzman]

The Reapers has cleansed the galaxy for millions upon millions of years they dont even see it like a war it's only a purpose and extermination. It simply does not fit the lore if they get defeated by conventional means.

[wantedman dan]

Slipzman wrote...

The Reapers has cleansed the galaxy for millions upon millions of years they dont even see it like a war it's only a purpose and extermination. It simply does not fit the lore if they get defeated by conventional means.

Keep clutching onto that Macguffin.

[Unfallen_Satan]

Yours is still a possible interpretation of the Destroy ending. There is a little bit of time between Shepard's destroying the tube thing and the Citadel's self destructing (which isn't even total based on the EC). Hackett doesn't explicitly mention Shepard's death. The Normandy crew adds Shepard to th memorial BEFORE it takes off from the planet where it crashed; it's impossible to know just how they ascertained Shepard's death. As unlikely as that may be, it's possible their memorial service is premature. And, of course, BioWare intentionally left in the man who took a sudden inhale of breath.

Perhaps Shepard found another way off the Citadel. Perhaps the Catalyst deposited him (she) back on Earth. Perhaps Shepard made his way to a different part of the Citadel that had concrete (or concrete-looking) structures and passed out. Eventually, he would be found and re-united with his love to walk together into the sunset.

I am not one for happy endings of this kind, but I see no reason why you should be denied that freedom. Unfortunately, there is just no way for BioWare to make another EEC of this ending without feeling awkward. I don't think it's necessary. If there is going to be a sequel, the existing endings are already different enough that all but one must become non-canon. By the same token, even if your preferred ending isn't canon or even clearly shown in a cutscene, it's as valid to you as any other can be. Until you play another ME game that uses the canon ending, that is.

If your goal is to fit in and seek popular support for your preferred ending, that boat has sailed and isn't coming back. However, if your goal is to have the ending you want, for yourself, BioWare has done a remarkable job of giving you that freedom.

[warlock22]

G Kevin wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just to be direct though:  Why should this be an option for the refusal ending.  Or even more generally, why should there be an ending that contains the following:

Shepard Lives, reapers defeated by conventional means, Geth/ EDI lives, Shepard walks off into the sunset with love interest.

I'm just asking to hear your thoughts on the subject.  Open question to others that feel the same way.

I would say so that in the end of the day, people can beat Mass Effect 3 feeling like a hero and all is well. Destroy brings that to me now, but why not go for the perfect ending? It is a game after all, the choice is nice.

This to

[Wintermaulz]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Master Chief lived at the end of Halo 3., except it was only known to those who put in the effort (or looked it up on youtube).

Why can't the same apply here?

Yes, you must beat the game on the super secret super hard mode that you can only unlock with gibbs save editor, and have over 9000 EMS :3

[The RPGenius]

Mr. Schumacher, I have a question, since the issue has your attention right now, and as a fan and not a maker of Mass Effect, but at the same time an employee of Bioware, you're in a rare position to be able to answer my question about potential future ME3 development without having to garb your words quite as opaquely in what PR, Marketing, and/or EA demands.

My question is: If it were clear that enough fans would pay for it to make it profitable, do you think Bioware would side-step their decision not to labor on the ending any further, and make a Happy Ending Refusal DLC option? 5 - 10 minutes of an ending that does NOT sacrifice the themes, heart, and soul of the franchise would absolutely be worth $10 to me, and I would not even feel morally appalled at having to pay for it, as at this point I can accept that it was not in the artistic intent of the company originally. And I'm willing to bet I would not be alone in that willingness to pay.

[Mezantine]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Master Chief lived at the end of Halo 3., except it was only known to those who put in the effort (or looked it up on youtube).

Why can't the same apply here?

You can still live at the end of ME3 if you're willing to commit genocide against the Geth and EDI.

[shadey]

ph34r-X wrote...

I mean look at the refusal ending. Why can't we have that in the refusal ending, but if you're readiness is too low you get the current refusal ending.

that would have been pretty cool


if your ems readiness rating was low and you refused catalyst then you get the current ending where you lost

if you had recruited every species and had a really high ems rating you could have defeated the reapers on earth at least. Considering the reapers were spread out over the entire galaxy it isn't too unbelievable to think they might actually get beaten in one sector if the entire alien fleet teamed up.

i wouldn't have expected them to say you beat the entire galaxy but it would have been like a first strike kind of victory to take back earth


oh well, lost opportunity now.

Modifié par shadey, 29 juin 2012 - 04:51 .

[Mystiq6]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

OP this is pretty much what I've been asking for the whole time.

Allan I'll answer your question with a question "Why shouldn't it?"

Since I was already asking my question in response to the OPs question, we could really go in circles all day with this if we play it this way.

He's gathering our responses.

To be clear, I'm not "gathering" anything.  I'm simply curious, because it's a perspective that is different than mine and hence intrinsically is more difficult for me to understand.

Do NOT respond to me if you're attaching any sort of expectation that it will change anything.  I do not want people feeling hopeful for more endings because of this thread.  I have no control over anything like that.

I'm generally upset with Shepard dying or half his friends dying in all the endings because at no point did the game feel like a tragedy, where the protagonist or his friends normally die. It ruined my sense of what I expected to happen. Nothing in the Extended Cut helped change that.

It made the endings more palatable but that is why I now agree that I want one of the endings to be all sunshine and roses. That the series was never a tragedy is probably why people are so upset at Shepard/friends dying in all the endings and it still makes the endings difficult to swallow.

And I still maintain that I have no problem with sad endings. Never Let Me Go is a movie where every single one of the protagonists die, and I felt satisfied with that ending. The movie prepared you very well for what was to come. Mass Effect did no such thing and it felt very much out of left field in the last 15 minutes of 150+ hours. Never Let Me Go is barely 1.5 hours.

Modifié par Mystiq6, 29 juin 2012 - 04:57 .

[mnomaha]

Providing the EMS is achievable in SP and not dependent upon MP.

[Mcfly616]

No....I can't agree. It's not our story....that's wishful thinking.....it would've been "nice"....sure.....but all I wanted from the EC to make sense.....I wanted my sacrifice to mean something......and the EC accomplished those things.....

A L.I. reunion was never the problem with the original endings.....therefore it was not necessary for the success of the EC....I'm not going lie and bash the EC because I didn't see something I would've liked....

I didn't like the original endings....I hated them and was honest about it.....and I love the EC....and that's just honest....it answered my questions and gave me closure

[wantedman dan]

mnomaha wrote...

Providing the EMS is achievable in SP and not dependent upon MP.

Very well said.