164 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazebook]

mauro2222 wrote...

Nothing is permanent, nothing is perfect. It's illogical to think otherwise.

its not illogical, it is just implausible...I would advice not to throw the word logic so much around.

[Galiredon]

Evo_9 wrote...

Galiredon wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

Galiredon wrote...

...I heard you don't wanna be killed by synthetics. So I made some synthetics to kill you every 50k years so you won't be killed by synthetics.

This was one of the biggest problems I had with the endings and although I thought the Extended Cut were an improvement they didn't address this core issue for me.

To the people who like the new endings, what do you think about this issue before/after the Extended Cut?

were you not paying attention to what the catalyst said? 

Its creators did not agree to be ascending into reaper form, so the catalyst has gone rogue in a quest to fulfill its ultimate purpose by any means necceasary.

In other words, its a big stuff up by whoever created the catalyst.

We need this to be in mass effect 4 IMO!

So you're saying that the race of bug creatures that the Reapers are based on created the Catalyst to help them deal with wars they were having with AI. Then the Catalyst's solution was to merge the bugs and their AI enemys into Reapers? I hadn't realized that and it's a really cool concept.

So why does the Catalyst all of a sudden let Shepard change the cycle?

Pretty much except the "bugs" would of created the reaper shell to which the catalyst then controlled, i gather this as the catalyst says

"they gave them form, i gave them function" 

Now why these bugs would create a reaper if they did not agree to the process is a question....maybe they were indoctrnated?? 

So from there i guess this first reaper started the whole cycle.

The catalyst says at the end that the current solution doesnt work and its upto shepard to find a new solution provided by the crucible as it has changed the catalysts functions. Why the catalyst cant do it on its own ill never know.

This is exactly why I dislike the endings. I've been eagly anticipating some big revelations about the Reapers for 3 games that I totally love and I get this confusing unclear answer? I was and am still very disappointed.

[Daveros]

Galiredon wrote...

Daveros wrote...

How has this ever really been confusing? The thought process behind the catalyst is that if organics create synthetics, these synthetics will then kill all the organics, so therefore, the organics which can create synthetics must be stopped, right?

Reapers only reap the advanced races, if not, the synthetics would dominate everything forever; that means humanity, Protheans, Inusannon, etc would never have existed if the Reapers hadn't reaped.

I mean, it's poor logic, but it's still logic. There's no way that the Catalyst isn't taking things too far, but it still makes sense.

My main problem with this is that I don't see from the trilogy why Synthetics are so dangerous. The Geth were very peaceful until Soveriegn indoctrinated them. Out of left field was this assumption that Synthetics will eventually destroy organics.

Reapers are synthetics? Geth were only nice from the last third of ME2 onwards? It's a recurring theme throughout the series.

Plus, it doesn't mean that the Catalyst is right, the Geth prove this, but the logic is not unsound.

[Femlob]

Armass81 wrote...

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

A woodchuck could chuck no amount of wood since a woodchuck couldn't chuck wood.

[Evo_9]

Daveros wrote...

Galiredon wrote...

Daveros wrote...

How has this ever really been confusing? The thought process behind the catalyst is that if organics create synthetics, these synthetics will then kill all the organics, so therefore, the organics which can create synthetics must be stopped, right?

Reapers only reap the advanced races, if not, the synthetics would dominate everything forever; that means humanity, Protheans, Inusannon, etc would never have existed if the Reapers hadn't reaped.

I mean, it's poor logic, but it's still logic. There's no way that the Catalyst isn't taking things too far, but it still makes sense.

My main problem with this is that I don't see from the trilogy why Synthetics are so dangerous. The Geth were very peaceful until Soveriegn indoctrinated them. Out of left field was this assumption that Synthetics will eventually destroy organics.

Reapers are synthetics? Geth were only nice from the last third of ME2 onwards? It's a recurring theme throughout the series.

Plus, it doesn't mean that the Catalyst is right, the Geth prove this, but the logic is not unsound.

The catalyst doesnt care how nice synthetics are.

Its created for a purpose, to solve a problem. It wont know right from wrong all it knows is that it has to solve a solution that it was programmed for.

This doesnt make sense to us as we have the ability to change our logic to make sense of things. Machines, well this one, obviously cant.

I dont think bioware is suggesting the catalyst is right...im under the impression that the catalyst is a big stuff up that its creators couldnt stop.

Modifié par Evo_9, 29 juin 2012 - 04:51 .

[Mazebook]

Galiredon wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Galiredon wrote...
But the 3 solutions the Catalyst creates aren't permanent either, especially Destory.

Yeah his solution won´t work anymore either...shepard proved him wrong...so new solutions are required... but he can´t make them happen... 
He likes synthesis the best because it is permanent , he doesn´t like destroy because he sees it not as permanent.

How does Shepard prove him wrong? They can't conventionally stop the Reapers. They can't use the Crucible's power. How has his solution failed? He could squash the half dead Shepard like a bug and let the cycle continue.

Because this proves that organics can evolve beyond the reapers...the crucible docks...it has changed him...He sees that his solution won´t last anymore. In given time the Organics will overcome the reapers completly just like he feared the synthetics would...which means he can´t fulfill his Task...so he presents new solutions.

Modifié par maaaze, 29 juin 2012 - 04:51 .

[Daveros]

Evo_9 wrote...

The catalyst doesnt care how nice synthetics are.

Its created for a purpose, to solve a problem. It wont know right from wrong all it knows is that it has to solve a solution that it was programmed for.

Well, exactly..?

EDIT: Where do you think I am saying the Catalyst is right?

Modifié par Daveros, 29 juin 2012 - 04:52 .

[Reptilian Rob]

It's stated in the EC by Starkid himself that he is flawed. He's rampant and insane.

[Galiredon]

Daveros wrote...

Galiredon wrote...

Daveros wrote...

How has this ever really been confusing? The thought process behind the catalyst is that if organics create synthetics, these synthetics will then kill all the organics, so therefore, the organics which can create synthetics must be stopped, right?

Reapers only reap the advanced races, if not, the synthetics would dominate everything forever; that means humanity, Protheans, Inusannon, etc would never have existed if the Reapers hadn't reaped.

I mean, it's poor logic, but it's still logic. There's no way that the Catalyst isn't taking things too far, but it still makes sense.

My main problem with this is that I don't see from the trilogy why Synthetics are so dangerous. The Geth were very peaceful until Soveriegn indoctrinated them. Out of left field was this assumption that Synthetics will eventually destroy organics.

Reapers are synthetics? Geth were only nice from the last third of ME2 onwards? It's a recurring theme throughout the series.

Plus, it doesn't mean that the Catalyst is right, the Geth prove this, but the logic is not unsound.

In ME1 it was established that the Geth hadn't been seen outside the Persius Veil since the Morning War (which the Quarians unfairly started). In ME1 it was Saren's indoctrinated Geth that we were fighting. Legion's Geth were always nice. They stayed away to prevent conflict. They were too busy buidling a Dyson Sphere to worry about killing organics. Saren/Sovereign's Geth were bad because they were indoctrinated.

Also, Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids.

[KingZayd]

Geneaux486 wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

But that's well before the Reapers are revealed isn't it?

Heh, most of the sidequests, that one included, I put off until my second playthrough.

ahh... OK, yeah at that point you only really have the Spaceship that is alive thing. I assumed they were like the Geth, and yeah it was something like that where Organics always tried to enslave Synthetics (which is typically how these things start in Sci-fi).

And also initially in ME2 I noted that Legion's reason for his name seemed quite similar to Sovereign's description of the "nation within". So I felt like the Reapers were once like the Geth, but they had taken different paths.

[Jadebaby]

Galiredon wrote...

...I heard you don't wanna be killed by synthetics. So I made some synthetics to kill you every 50k years so you won't be killed by synthetics.

This was one of the biggest problems I had with the endings and although I thought the Extended Cut were an improvement they didn't address this core issue for me.

To the people who like the new endings, what do you think about this issue before/after the Extended Cut?

Before the extended cut I found it one of the most hilarious meme's to come out of the endings... RIght behind Marauder Shields.

After the extended cut, It seems like they tried to iron out the Catalyst, then realized they couldn't so just admitted his logic with the cycle is broken and that's why you need a new solution. He still tells you that destroy will lead to another technology singularity though and all option he presents are as flawed as his logic.

I think it's dumb and undermines the Reapers previous established role in the game.

[Jadebaby]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

It's stated in the EC by Starkid himself that he is flawed. He's rampant and insane.

Which is why we shouldn't make deals with crazy people.

Seriously, Shepard's speech in refuse is one for the ages.

[Daveros]

Galiredon wrote...

In ME1 it was established that the Geth hadn't been seen outside the Persius Veil since the Morning War (which the Quarians unfairly started). In ME1 it was Saren's indoctrinated Geth that we were fighting. Legion's Geth were always nice. They stayed away to prevent conflict. They were too busy buidling a Dyson Sphere to worry about killing organics. Saren/Sovereign's Geth were bad because they were indoctrinated.

Also, Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids.

In ME1 the only synthetics you ever saw were nasty. With bombs on the citadel, taking over the moon, the Geth, the reapers...

Things changed from ME2 onwards.

But the point isn't if synthetics are nice or not, it's the logic that I'm debating. It makes sense, what the Catalyst says - it doesn't mean it's right.

[Ticonderoga117]

Yeah... this is the one thing I'm not ecstatic about the EC. I mean sure, I get the progression of GlowBoy, and he basically pulls a VIKI from I, Robot which "solves" his problem and yet there's still no pointing out this glaring logic failure and tell him to fly into a far away sun.

And yes, I know about the refusal ending... ugh, don't get me going on that. I like that it was added, but it's implementation is dodgy. Do like seeing Liara's time capsule at work though.

[Galiredon]

maaaze wrote...

Galiredon wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Galiredon wrote...
But the 3 solutions the Catalyst creates aren't permanent either, especially Destory.

Yeah his solution won´t work anymore either...shepard proved him wrong...so new solutions are required... but he can´t make them happen... 
He likes synthesis the best because it is permanent , he doesn´t like destroy because he sees it not as permanent.

How does Shepard prove him wrong? They can't conventionally stop the Reapers. They can't use the Crucible's power. How has his solution failed? He could squash the half dead Shepard like a bug and let the cycle continue.

Because this proves that organics can evolve beyond the reapers...the crucible docks...it has changed him...He sees that his solution won´t last anymore. In given time the Organics will overcome the reapers completly just like he feared the synthetics would...which means he can´t fulfill his Task...so he presents new solutions.

I don't see how docking the Crucible proves anything. If it weren't for the Catalyst Shepard would have bled out next to Anderson and the Reapers would have won another cycle and destroyed the Crucible.

If his Task is so important, why let Shepard cast the deciding vote?

[Mazebook]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Galiredon wrote...

...I heard you don't wanna be killed by synthetics. So I made some synthetics to kill you every 50k years so you won't be killed by synthetics.

This was one of the biggest problems I had with the endings and although I thought the Extended Cut were an improvement they didn't address this core issue for me.

To the people who like the new endings, what do you think about this issue before/after the Extended Cut?

Before the extended cut I found it one of the most hilarious meme's to come out of the endings... RIght behind Marauder Shields.

After the extended cut, It seems like they tried to iron out the Catalyst, then realized they couldn't so just admitted his logic with the cycle is broken and that's why you need a new solution. He still tells you that destroy will lead to another technology singularity though and all option he presents are as flawed as his logic.

I think it's dumb and undermines the Reapers previous established role in the game.

His logic isn´t flawed...he underastimated organics...thats all.

[Evo_9]

Daveros wrote...

Evo_9 wrote...

The catalyst doesnt care how nice synthetics are.

Its created for a purpose, to solve a problem. It wont know right from wrong all it knows is that it has to solve a solution that it was programmed for.

Well, exactly..?

EDIT: Where do you think I am saying the Catalyst is right?

Sorry shouldnt of quoted you. I was replying to Galiredon.

[Daveros]

Evo_9 wrote...

Sorry shouldnt of quoted you. I was replying to Galiredon.

My misunderstanding; sorry.

[mauro2222]

maaaze wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

Nothing is permanent, nothing is perfect. It's illogical to think otherwise.

its not illogical, it is just implausible...I would advice not to throw the word logic so much around.

No, implausible means not probable, it's impossible to achieve perfection as is impossible to achieve a permanent solution. It's illogical to think otherwise.

Modifié par mauro2222, 29 juin 2012 - 05:04 .

[Galiredon]

Daveros wrote...

Galiredon wrote...

In ME1 it was established that the Geth hadn't been seen outside the Persius Veil since the Morning War (which the Quarians unfairly started). In ME1 it was Saren's indoctrinated Geth that we were fighting. Legion's Geth were always nice. They stayed away to prevent conflict. They were too busy buidling a Dyson Sphere to worry about killing organics. Saren/Sovereign's Geth were bad because they were indoctrinated.

Also, Reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids.

In ME1 the only synthetics you ever saw were nasty. With bombs on the citadel, taking over the moon, the Geth, the reapers...

Things changed from ME2 onwards.

But the point isn't if synthetics are nice or not, it's the logic that I'm debating. It makes sense, what the Catalyst says - it doesn't mean it's right.

In ME1 your observation is: Synthetics are dangerous because of bombs on the 
citadel, taking over the moon, the Geth, the reapers.

In ME2/ME3 you learn, synthetics are like organics. The AI on the moon turned into EDI, your friend. The geth are indoctrinated AI, they're evil just like indoctrinated organics. The true Geth (Legion) can be your friend. The Reapers aren't AI after all. They're liquifying people as a form of reproduction, they're your enemy.

Bascially you learn, synthetics are just like every else. They can be good or evil. If we can broker peace we can live with them. i.e. Quarian/Geth peace. EDI/Legion become your friends. The theme was, look beyond the surface and beyond your prejudices and treat AI with the same respect any other sentient being deserves. How beautiful...

...then in the last five minutes. Oh by the way, synthetics will eventually destory organics. HUH?

[Mazebook]

Galiredon wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Galiredon wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Galiredon wrote...
But the 3 solutions the Catalyst creates aren't permanent either, especially Destory.

Yeah his solution won´t work anymore either...shepard proved him wrong...so new solutions are required... but he can´t make them happen... 
He likes synthesis the best because it is permanent , he doesn´t like destroy because he sees it not as permanent.

How does Shepard prove him wrong? They can't conventionally stop the Reapers. They can't use the Crucible's power. How has his solution failed? He could squash the half dead Shepard like a bug and let the cycle continue.

Because this proves that organics can evolve beyond the reapers...the crucible docks...it has changed him...He sees that his solution won´t last anymore. In given time the Organics will overcome the reapers completly just like he feared the synthetics would...which means he can´t fulfill his Task...so he presents new solutions.

I don't see how docking the Crucible proves anything. If it weren't for the Catalyst Shepard would have bled out next to Anderson and the Reapers would have won another cycle and destroyed the Crucible.

If his Task is so important, why let Shepard cast the deciding vote?

sorry that i have to repeat myself :
- In given time the Organics will overcome the reapers completly just like he feared the synthetics would

What do think how many Crucible or crucible like devises they have destroyed...maybe more than one. 
The Docking changed the Catalyst...he got new input...new possibiltys...i don´t know how to make this any clearer... Reapers a solution = not permanent anymore because in given time (new crucible designs , better crucible designs, powerfull enough to destroy the catalyst without him having the chance to present a new solution....) and so on...

because he can´t make the decision...

Modifié par maaaze, 29 juin 2012 - 05:05 .

[tanuki]

It maybe strange but I kinda like the Catalyst exposition in the EC. Now it is perfectly clear that it is just insane (and evil) AI, which forcefully reaperified it's own creators to fix the "problem" his creators though existed and programmed it the way it should find the solution. It's solution makes no sense, but by it's insane machine logic the only way to prevent the "synthetics kill organics" is to kill organics before that and it's even considers organics to be "preserved" inside the reaper as an ascension.

The only thing that annoys me is that Shepard still kinda believes and passively agrees to the starkid logic instead of calling it out.

[Han Shot First]

Galiredon wrote...


To the people who like the new endings, what do you think about this issue before/after the Extended Cut?

It was one of the aspects I hated about the original ending, but I thought Bioware actually addressed this fairly well in the EC.

In the new dialogue if Shepard asks the Catalyst about his origins, he will state that he was an A.I. created to monitor and maintain peace between organics and synthetics. At some undetermined point afterwards he then went far beyond the scope of his programming, and forced his own creators to become the first Reapers as his 'solution' to the problems of conflict between organics and synthetics. He went beyond the scope of his programming by rebelling against his own creators and then carrying out a seemingly endless cycle of genocide.
 
That reveals him to be a malfunctioning A.I. stuck in a logic loop, even if he doesn't see it as such.  If it were an organic rather than a synthetic, it would be diagnosed as being mentally ill. The EC reveal also turned him into an unreliable narrator rather than the seemingly omnipotent being he was presented as in the original cut. In that context the insane 'yo dawg' reasoning for the extinction cycles actually makes sense, because you are not dealing with a 'sane' A.I.

All Hail the Mad King of the Milky Way!

Modifié par Han Shot First, 29 juin 2012 - 05:07 .

[Daveros]

Galiredon wrote...

In ME1 your observation is: Synthetics are dangerous because of bombs on the 
citadel, taking over the moon, the Geth, the reapers.

In ME2/ME3 you learn, synthetics are like organics. The AI on the moon turned into EDI, your friend. The geth are indoctrinated AI, they're evil just like indoctrinated organics. The true Geth (Legion) can be your friend. The Reapers aren't AI after all. They're liquifying people as a form of reproduction, they're your enemy.

Bascially you learn, synthetics are just like every else. They can be good or evil. If we can broker peace we can live with them. i.e. Quarian/Geth peace. EDI/Legion become your friends. The theme was, look beyond the surface and beyond your prejudices and treat AI with the same respect any other sentient being deserves. How beautiful...

...then in the last five minutes. Oh by the way, synthetics will eventually destory organics. HUH?

You're really going to have to divorce your observations with those of the Catalyst. With what it believes, its actions are correct. By challenging it (by proxy, by fighting the Reapers) you are showing you choose to think differently. Options occur and you pick one.

The logic is sound.