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There are no "good" choices, there are no "bad" choices. There is only the LINE.


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#1
Reptilian Rob

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(Bear with me, this relates to Mass Effect, let me intro this thing first. Sorry in advance for spelling or grammatical issues, I don't have my contects in...Let it also be known that I would not have written this if the EC was horrible or the endings were never fixed. So this relates specifically to the EC.)

I recently finished Spec Ops THE LINE, and as a student of Literature and military versed (not in the military myself, but most of my family is) person I can tell you it is the most intense game I have ever played in my twenty four years of gaming. I've never felt sick to my stomach in a game until now, I've never questioned who I was as a person for a good three hours and I've never had an such a visceral and horrific reaction as I did to that game. It's a choice driven game like ME, and all the choices you make, no matter how moral you think they are, are always bad choices. There are no moralities which are right and even though I went back and played the game three times each choice I made no matter how different was horrific and made me cross a moral line. It's not that I never crossed the line, it's to what degree I crossed it. 

*SPOILERS* 

During the final segment of the game, it is revealed that all your choices were a culmination of fear, PTSD and you being so oblivious to the reality of the situation that you made up all these choices in your mind. You did all these horrible things for no reason, and you have to live with it. The final scene is you looking youself in the mirror with a gun pointed at your other self, and it's up to you to pull the trigger or not. Honestly, it makes the IT theory look like child's play, but you'll have to experience it for yourself to get the full effect. 

*END SPOILERS*

And then I started thinking, and all of a sudden ME3 made a lot more sense.

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During ME3's ending, you had to choose between three horrible choices, yes? How many of us compalined that all these choices were morally wrong and that they violated everything Shepard stood for as a person? Most of us did, and most of us called for different endings, myself included. But looking back, and having this visceral experience as a background I can now say I would not change the endings one little bit and here's why.

In war, there is no morality, no right or wrong choice. There are no clear cut ways to win, loose or tactics to secure victory. In war, there is only the will to survive and the will to carry on your ideals. The problem is that in war, ideals take a back seat to survival.

I'm going to put this into ME terms so that it's relevant to this forum. 

Stand on the ashes of a hundred billion dead souls and ask their dead souls if morality or your personal stance ever mattered to them? Ask the family on Palaven if what your Shepard believed mattered more to them than their child's life, ask the Asari on Thessia if Shepards uncompromising stance is worth more in her eyes than her world, ask the Quarian orphan who lost both parents in the war if your Shepard's beliefs matter if it could never bring back or save his parents. Either the look of horror or utter silence would probably be your answer. 

Up until the Reaper war, everything you knew, your moral stances, your beliefs, and your entire view on galactic life was unchallenged. Then, in the final sequence of ME3 everything above was stripped away from you. None of your morals mattered, none of your beliefes were revevant and the only thing you had left was the line. It was up to you how much, or how little you crossed that very, very fine line. Did you destroy the Geth and cross over the line of genocide? Did you enslave the Reapers and cross the line of morality? Did you choose to re-write everyone's DNA and cross the line into forced, unwillful change? This is war, and in war there are no moralities, there are no judements and there are no belief systems that can ever be justifyable in the context of said war. To win you have to cross a line, to save everything and everyone you have to lay down your moral values and cross over into something you said you would never walk into.

The truth is, you're here because you wanted to feel like something you're not, a hero. You're upset and angry because you can't accept what you've done, it broke you. It takes a strong man to admit what he's done, but it takes a stronger man to deny what's right in front of him...

Did you play ME because you felt like you were the hero? You were, but the moment the end came to bear down on you, you were no longer a hero and you had to cross a line. Did you stand to your morals then? Did you reject everything that was laid out in front of you and deny everything that would have made this end? Did you keep telling yourself that winning the war conventionally at the cost of everything would uphold your moral values? What about everyone else's will to survive? When you chose one of those three choices did you tell yourself that "you didn't mean to hurt anyone."?

No one ever does. What ever happends next, don't be too hard on yourself. I'm sure the galaxy will forgive you for sticking to your morals as it burned around you.

There was never a good choice, and there was never a bad choice. It was just how far you were willing to cross over your self imposed boundries to do what was nessasary. In war, you do what you must to survive...And that usually means your morals are irrelevant.

There a line men like Shepard have to cross. If they're lucky, they do what's nessasary and die. You know, all they really want is peace. But peace always has a cost, are you willing to pay with your morals and if nessasary your life?

I'll hate the Catalyst until the day I die, for what he is, for what he did and for everything he stands for. But I will never let my moralities and beliefes get in the way of doing what needs to be done so that others may live. If that means the genocide of an entire race so that the majority can live, so be it. If that means enslaving an entire race so that who I set out to protect and save will survive? So be it. If that means forcing an entire genetic re-write on those I care about so that they can continue to survive, even as a new form of life (even if the concept in flawed and hardly makes sense)? So be it. 

I'll do what is nessarsay so that they can survive, I'll cross any and all lines. Because my moralities mean nothing more than personal beliefes written down on paper when it comes to the collective weight of the galaxy. 

It takes a strong man to admit what he's done...It takes a stronger man to deny what's right in front of him...

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 29 juin 2012 - 09:33 .


#2
Taboo

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 My response.

#3
Reptilian Rob

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Taboo-XX wrote...

 My response.

So, did you cross a line? Or give into the choas of morality over survival?

#4
Jonata

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Nice post OP. I don't agree with your hate for the endings and the Catalyst, but I like your reasoning about the line that war makes men cross. It is a pretty recurrent topic in the whole game after all, the characters were always preparing to face a though choice that was meant to be difficult.

Offcourse, the one faced with that choice was Shepard. I think of my Shepard not as a hero, because that would be assumptive in my eyes, but as a humble man, a soldier and someone who just want the good for the Galaxy.

...and besides, "so be it" it's gonna be used a lot on these forums, isn't it?

#5
Jonata

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Taboo-XX wrote...

 My response.


Now I NEED the Catalyst to take the shape of a fox and say those words before dying in Destroy.

#6
Taboo

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I am a monster for choosing Destroy. It goes against everything I stand for. Everything.

But I could not allow the other two options to occur. I had to make a choice.

This is the only reason I choose Destroy.

Being alive is just as much a sacrifice in this scenario as Synthesis is. My sacrifice is innocence of mind. My Shepard has PTSD already, I can't imagine how bad his nights are going to be when he wakes up in the Hospital.

I'd certainly feel bad about it, I know I would.

Miranda? Being in a relationship doesn't fix the world. It may make it easier, but the struggles are FAR from over for my Shepard.

#7
Reptilian Rob

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Jonata wrote...
...and besides, "so be it" it's gonna be used a lot on these forums, isn't it?

*Definitly was not a poke at BW, nope not at all.*

#8
Reptilian Rob

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I am a monster for choosing Destroy. It goes against everything I stand for. Everything.

But I could not allow the other two options to occur. I had to make a choice.

This is the only reason I choose Destroy.

Being alive is just as much a sacrifice in this scenario as Synthesis is. My sacrifice is innocence of mind. My Shepard has PTSD already, I can't imagine how bad his nights are going to be when he wakes up in the Hospital.

I'd certainly feel bad about it, I know I would.

Miranda? Being in a relationship doesn't fix the world. It may make it easier, but the struggles are FAR from over for my Shepard.

You crossed a line for the survival of the many...

You did what was nessasary. 

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 29 juin 2012 - 03:54 .


#9
Geneaux486

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*Very* solid post, Rob. Great read. Brought back a lot of things I was thinking not just when finishing Mass Effect 3, but also specifically reaching the end of the Fallout 3 expansion "The Pitt". I do feel that there's something to be said regarding heroics when one accepts that they can't do the absolute best thing, but still do what they can simply because it needs to be done, accepting responsibility for reasons other than to just be a hero.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 juin 2012 - 03:55 .


#10
Taboo

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I'd still feel terrible.

Do people REALLY think that being alive and in a relationship will cure everything WRONG with this scenario.

THE ART. THE ARRRRRRRRRRT.

#11
mass perfection

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Is it that they're all good endings or bad ending?Or both?

#12
Geneaux486

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mass perfection wrote...

Is it that they're all good endings or bad ending?Or both?


I think it's just making the best of a bad situation.

#13
Zolt51

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Reptilian Rob wrote...
(Bare with me, 

Stopped reading right there:
- Bear with me = please be patient with my somewhat long-winded discourse.
- Bare with me = let's get naked together.

#14
mass perfection

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Geneaux486 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

Is it that they're all good endings or bad ending?Or both?


I think it's just making the best of a bad situation.

Which makes the best?

#15
mass perfection

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Zolt51 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
(Bare with me, 

Stopped reading right there:
- Bear with me = please be patient with my somewhat long-winded discourse.
- Bare with me = let's get naked together.

lol

#16
Reptilian Rob

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I'd still feel terrible.

Do people REALLY think that being alive and in a relationship will cure everything WRONG with this scenario.

THE ART. THE ARRRRRRRRRRT.

Keep telling yourself it's just a game...It's not like it's what you would choose if this situation actually existed, right? You're a hero...

#17
Taboo

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Art is so great isn't it?

At least I didn't feel TERRIBLE at the end of the EC.

I cried though. Mostly because this **** was finally over.

#18
vasametropolis

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Nice post Reptilian Rob. I completely agree. Ideals should not get in the way of survival, and the game mentions this numerous times. I've never been disappointed with one of your threads.

#19
Reptilian Rob

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mass perfection wrote...

Zolt51 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
(Bare with me, 

Stopped reading right there:
- Bear with me = please be patient with my somewhat long-winded discourse.
- Bare with me = let's get naked together.

lol

Yes, yes. We all know that I'm not wearing my contacts...It was stated in the OP after all...

#20
Huitzil

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The problem is that Spec Ops: The Line is a game that, over its entire length, builds up to a message about the amorality of war and the willingness of people to do horrible things if they convince themselves of its necessity.

Mass Effect is a series that builds up the exact, literal opposite message until the last twenty minutes of the last game. That makes it bad storytelling.

#21
Jonata

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Taboo-XX wrote...

I'd still feel terrible.

Do people REALLY think that being alive and in a relationship will cure everything WRONG with this scenario.


While I do not know where your Shepard will be after the endings, I'm pretty sure being alive and in a relationship at least can cure most of the problems faced with Destroy.

Shepard already coped with the death of 300.000 Batarians alone, while stranded on Earth and knowing that those deaths actually only slowed down the reapers a couple of months. 

Give him enough time with his LI, dealing with PTSD and help rebuilding the Galaxy, and everything will be fine. There will be though moments, but (excuse me for the cheesyness) time and love together are one hell of a medicine. 

#22
Geneaux486

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mass perfection wrote...

Geneaux486 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

Is it that they're all good endings or bad ending?Or both?


I think it's just making the best of a bad situation.

Which makes the best?


I don't think there's an objective answer to that.  Personally I like control the best.  If synthesis truly is the final evolution of organic life, it'll happen when it's meant to, and destroy comes at too great a cost, so I'd just as soon grab the reigns and steer the antagonists towards something better, leaving my buds to get back to their lives.

Modifié par Geneaux486, 29 juin 2012 - 04:10 .


#23
WizenSlinky0

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I'd rather die or doom the planet to die than cross my own personal lines to survive. There are limits that nothing, no scenario, could make me cross. The only reason I made any of the choices was because it was a video game.

#24
Reptilian Rob

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Huitzil wrote...

The problem is that Spec Ops: The Line is a game that, over its entire length, builds up to a message about the amorality of war and the willingness of people to do horrible things if they convince themselves of its necessity.

Mass Effect is a series that builds up the exact, literal opposite message until the last twenty minutes of the last game. That makes it bad storytelling.

War is war, doesn't matter how it's presented. 

You will at some point have to cross a line, in a choice driven game. And ME3 was a very dark game, a difficult choice was coming no matter what was foreshadowed before. 

#25
Reptilian Rob

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WizenSlinky0 wrote...

I'd rather die or doom the planet to die than cross my own personal lines to survive.

So the lives of the trillions of others, from dozens of speices mean nothing to you? You would stand to your morals, rather than do what was nessasary for the survival of the galaxy?